Leona's decision tree and her E

Mandaari·Oct 19, 2013·1 votes·237 views

This will end up being a buff to Leona. Just keep in mind it's not a buff for the sake of power, but for the sake of giving her more options in different situations.

Problem: Right now Leona has basically 2 choices in any situation: do nothing or go all in.

Give her the ability to reactivate her E to move her back to the original cast position. The window in which she's allowed to reactive the ability should be tiny - just long enough for her to Q and get out. This allows her to make more of a decision. She still has to be aggressive and engage in order to do anything, but it doesn't always have to be an all in.

The reason the window should be tiny is so that she can't get a full combo off. If she wants to get the W damage out then she'll need to use it well before she Es, in which case your opponent should be able to see it coming and back off at the right time.

I know Leona's a very viable pick, but her decision tree is practically non-existent. This just gives her a little more choice.

22 Comments

ploki122Oct 19, 20131 votes

I do agree with her desicion tree being flawed, but if you add that much power to her, you nede to make it disappear somewhere else... +4-5s on W and E?

Otherwise, I do believe that her decision tre is much bigger than you say. If you have a brush pinked, you can sit in it, going for the W/Q damage on the support, saving E for an all-in.

There is also the difference in combo between WEQ and EWQ. Basically, there is a burst all-in now combo (WEQ) and the Let me kill this guy and facetank everything for you combo (EWQ), and once you hit 6, you have that other ability coming in. Do you use R as a catch-up tool for after their flash? Do yo uuse it to initiate? Do you use it to zone their eventual help? Do you use it as a burst nuking an innate stack on everyone or use it to stun their adc for a little while more?

MandaariOct 19, 20131 votes

First off, I agree with you that she'd probably need some power removed from her elsewhere. I think increasing the CD on her E would be sufficient.

Second, you're right that there's more options in terms of what abilities to use, but they all (with the exception of her ult) result in an all in. Whether or not you used WEQ or EWQ you've still gone all in. Even if you go in without using your E (pinked bush) you've still gone all in. You have a huge advantage in this case, but it's still an all in.

Her ult is the only non-all-in choice she has.

ploki122Oct 19, 20131 votes

Then I guess our definition of all in is really different...

For me an all in translates to :

We'll butt heads until one of us blow a major cooldown or dies.

You can easily WEQ and run away. Thy may try to chase you down with you 90 bonus Armor/MR, but your ADC can also attack them (which will be much easier to kill), and if you inited at a right time, the ywill probably try to run away more than go in.

Basically it's all in picking your fights an creating picks. My main support is Poppy, and even as Poppy I manage to sometimes only poke and sometimes go all in. If you can't do that on Leona, I believe there's something wrong. The same applies with Jarvan 4, You have the option of going all in, but you also have the option to EQ into 1 AA and run awayusing your shield to block most counter attack...

MandaariOct 19, 20131 votes

By all in I mean you physically have to put yourself into the fight to be able to do anything. Yes you can turn around to walk away, but that's not really much of a disengage regardless of whether or not you mitigate the damage.

The difference between Leona and J4 is that J4 can use his EQ to get away whereas Leona can't. For example, J4 can use his shield to slow before he EQs away, but Leona can't Q and then E away.

ploki122Oct 19, 20131 votes

OH! then she's just on par with most melee supports...

Taric has to go melee to be any useful (armor shred), Blitzcrank cannot do anything at range, Poppy has only "all ins" or so close it doesn't matter... I believe there needs to be a drawback for having her mountain of CC, which is in her case the lack of shield/sustain and I believe there needs to be a drawback for her gigantic defensive boost, which is her lack of escape tool.

At that point it's up to you to pick the kind of support you're better on...

MandaariOct 19, 20131 votes

Taric can stun and keep disengaging. Blitzcrank can grab someone to separate them from the team and then CC train them. Leona's really the only one (other than Poppy support which I've never seen) that has to put herself into the other team in order to do anything.

And yes, there should be a drawback for having that much CC. But look at Lulu. She has a polymorph, slow, and knock up which she can all use safely. I'm by no means implying that Lulu is just a better Leona, but it seems a little unfair that she can have a CC train that doesn't require her to all in while Leona has to.

Perhaps giving Leona a flat out escape (and to be fair this still restricts her a lot) isn't the best way to give her another option, but it's a lot better than just having her walk away IMO.

Mindworm JimOct 19, 20131 votes

Would not a simpler way to implement it be to have the dash + root aspect of her E require a second activation of the ability? She could still do everything the same, except she can now use her E to poke. By increasing the cool down on E at the same time you create the cost of, "you can safely poke, but doing so basically removes your ability to do anything else for a while.".

MandaariOct 19, 20131 votes

You mean like Thresh's Q? Considering the root on her E is pretty minimal I don't think it would help her situation much. It would practically just be a passive mark.

RiotRiot LilyHazeOct 19, 20131 votes

I'm not sure Leona needs more of a decision tree than all in with E, but I also think you are thinking about it a little incorrectly.

E-ing into the enemy team is hyper aggressive, sure, but it can also be hyper defensive. By having EQ up, she makes anyone wanting to dive her really think about how hard they can go. R combined with E gives her the ability to pick a specific champion and ensure they can't get away. And, with her W, she ensures that her all-in has the tanky stats the back it up. She doesn't have a lot of choices, but she has a lot of impact, and needs to make her choice wisely.

Besides, not every champion needs to be hyper-flexible. Some are perfectly fine having limited choices. Lee Sin exists on one side of the scale, being hyper flexible in his choices. And Leona exists on the other, being fairly limited. Both are very strong and balanced around their kits. Lee Sin has very little hard CC, whereas Leona has a snare on her E, a stun on her Q, and a stun / slow on her ult. Giving her the ability to reposition herself on top of all that CC would likely make her too much.

Linna ExcelOct 19, 20131 votes

One thing about Leona: she brings kill potential to a lane unlike a lot of supports. Yes it sucks that she's an all in champ. Yes she probably needs 10 more movement speed. Yes she can be kited easily if the ADC has level 2 boots and she doesn't. Yes the current 0cs meta isn't doing her any favors, particularly late game.

But still, she's one of the best supports at being able to pick a fight and getting a kill.

MandaariOct 19, 20131 votes

She is. No argument here for that. But regardless of what she's trying to do she has to all in (or use the threat of going all in).

Maybe instead of a blink back she could get an MS boost from landing one of her abilities?

Linna ExcelOct 19, 20131 votes

If she can get boots, she probably doesn't need move speed unless the other team is starting to build move speed items. Things like TF and PD make it easier to kite leona and with your suggestion, all they'd have to do is dodge her E and they are safe.

If you buff her kit too much then solo lane and jungle Leona are going to get stronger too, which might be an issue.

MandaariOct 19, 20131 votes

I don't think we'll be seeing solo lane Leona while she can't trigger her own passive. This isn't really about her getting kited. It's about her having the choice to disengage once she has already engaged. Giving her some extra MS might be unnecessary in terms of sticking potential, but it would definitely help her disengage somewhat. Also, I think it's totally fine if you miss your E and they're safe. I'm going to use the buzzword of the season here and say that's counterplay.

Linna ExcelOct 19, 20131 votes

I think that if you can work her kit within the limitations of the passive, that is not having one unless you get a gank, she could be a solo laner. Depends on the match-up and item build.

MandaariOct 20, 20131 votes

I know people have tried it since release. Neither solo lane nor jungle works. Most builds involve TF, but past that she doesn't really have the damage to hold her own in lane.

Not first hand experience though.

Linna ExcelOct 20, 20131 votes

She's a tank. In the jungle at least she needs to build a bruiser build. For top I'm guessing she's going to build tank with maybe one or two attack damage items.

Remember, tanks are less about doing damage and more about soaking it up so your team's DDs have time to act.

MandaariOct 20, 20131 votes

So for some reason I can't reply to your post below, so here's my reply.

My point wasn't that she needs to do damage. My favorite thing about Leona is that she doesn't do damage. My point was that she doesn't have the damage to trade or any sustain.

MandaariOct 19, 20131 votes

I disagree with this post quite a bit. Having EQ up only makes you defensive (hyper defensive is a massive exaggeration IMO) because it makes the enemy team consider that you might engage them. So in order to take advantage of that obviously have to engage them.

This isn't asking that she be hyper-flexible, or really even flexible at all. It doesn't allow her to dance in and out of a fight. It just lets her disengage once. Given that her Q CD is shorter than her E CD and this would call for her E CD to be slightly increased it means that her decision to disengage means she's going to stay disengaged. It's really not that flexible at all - just enough flexibility to give her one more option.

RiotRiot LilyHazeOct 19, 20131 votes

I disagree. Hyper defensive is, in my opinion, not an exaggeration. Whether its an outer tower, or a base tower, diving into a Leona and getting CC stacked on you is a dangerous prospect. You either have to hope your tankline can absorb a bunch of tower shots, or you have to hope they can keep the enemy carriers occupied while Leona locks down your damage line. Unlike most CC champions, Leona has a lot she can do to slow people down, or stop them altogether.

And with the support gold changes coming up, Leona will only get stronger. What if she could suddenly afford to start buying Randuins? Or Sunfire? What if she just buys Blade just to force being dealt with? Between new items and her passive, its quite easy to see how she can be a terror.

And I disagree, this actually makes her quite flexible. You are giving her Zed's Clone ability in reverse. She throws out CC, gets to use another form of CC, and then gets to escape to safety, all on a 9 second cooldown. And if she can E in and use her Q, she can E in and use her R. Her W damage isn't necessary late game, its the additional armored up time. If she doesn't need to be in the fight, she doesn't need the second proc.

MandaariOct 19, 20131 votes

That defensiveness is all about the enemy making the mistake to dive you though. In the end it's still an all in, just not an all in that you chose to start. The situation I have in mind when commenting is when your carry and you are trying to run away. The only thing Leona can do is to all in (or ult) and then walk away.

I see and play as "late game" Leona all the time. Play ARAMs and you see just about every aspect of every champion eventually. She's a truck. Damage-wise she never really becomes terrifying (or anything close) but she's very disruptive and hard to take down. That being said, this isn't about her power. Regardless of how powerful she is she still needs to all in. It just means she can get away with it much more easily. That also being said, I understand that this is a buff and needs to be compensated for.

If you want to "punish" her for taking the disengage route when she doesn't need to then you could put E on a longer CD if she reactivates it. So if you want to all in you can, but if you want to E and get out there's no using your E to go back, at least for a long while.

RiotRiot LilyHazeOct 19, 20131 votes

I guess I'm still not sure what the problem with being all-in is. She is a positionally strong champion. My whole point of hyper-defensive is just that. She doesn't have a lot of choices, but she trades it away for a lot of power. You forces the enemy to make choices they don't want to, or risk choices that could backfire hard.

You have to know that you have no escape when you pick Leona. She fits into a niche group that doesn't have high mobility, and requires more of an all-in. If we agree that she is strong, and we agree that she is also balanced, what is the reasoning behind making her better?

MandaariOct 20, 20131 votes

To be clear, the point isn't to make her better. It's to give her options without making her better. Riot has stated over and over again that they don't like 1-dimensional kits, and I agree with that. Leona's kit is pretty much as 1-dimensional as it gets.