The reason people hate Zed is the same people hate Nidalee

Mandaari··88 votes·12,766 views

He's a generalist. He's supposed to be an assassin, but he's so much more. That last CLG/TSM game exemplifies that he's strong at a lot of different things.

  • He has a safe laning phase, so if he doesn't get a kill in lane or from roaming he will not be starved for gold.

  • He's a strong lane bully, so he'll likely force you out of lane with relatively little risk.

  • He's a strong, safe split pusher.

  • His core itemization allows him to be effective against both tanks and carries.

  • As an AD champion, he can miss a large part of his combo and still deal relevant damage with AAs.

  • He's not punished for failing to assassinate a target. He can still contribute to teamfights through poke and his basic abilities.

From solely an assassin perspective Zed is well balanced IMO. It's just that he does so much else that it doesn't matter. I saw a lot of people complain when Riot nerfed his AS. Honestly I think that was the right approach (nerfing his auxiliary roles), but it didn't go far enough. After being nerfed his base AS is average, and his AS at 18 is in the top third. Nothing has been done to address his ability to CS laughably easily.

That's not all just Zed having his kit. It's Zed's items as well. BotRK was designed for MADCs to stay in range and to counter the warmogs meta. It has since been used for extra burst in duels and for extra split pushing power. Armor pen, with any common sense, should be a strong counter to champions that build armor. Yet armor pen is still strong regardless of whether or not your opponents build armor. Now look at assassin itemization. All core AD assassin items have armor pen on them.

Adding to the itemization issue, all of Zed's core items have effective build paths. Longsword is 360g. There are 5 longswords between LW, Youmuu's, and BotRK. The largest gold gap for all of those items is LW's combine cost at 1065g, which is usually the last item built. The largest gold cost for all of Youmuu's is Brutalizer's combine cost at 617g. The largest gold cost for BotRK is 900g at the final combine cost. While finishing those items you're sitting on Cutlass and Brutalizer, both of which are strong items in their own right.

TL;DR: Zed is strong because he's good at a lot of different things. That's both from his kit and from poor item design.

Edit: Let me clarify that

  1. Being a generalist does not mean you can do everything. It just means you can do a multiple things, and more so than the norm.

  2. Zed the champion alone is not a generalist. Zed with armor pen and BotRK is a generalist. They enable him to go beyond his assassin role without sacrificing anything.

99 Comments

Vaelix104 votes

I dont hate Zed because hes a generalist.

I hate Zed because..

He forces 90% of picks to build defensively, but almost never has to alter his own build path. He forces 90% of picks to forsake their own resource to get an hourglass, but doesnt need to worry about his own resource. He forces 90% of picks to take exhaust to survive him, but never takes anything but ignite.

***Zed being picked in champ select dictates Your pick, your build path, your summoner spell, and your play style. ***

All the while CSing super easily, with a completely thoughtless passive, having insane safety that most others cannot match, and getting sustain from items for staying power most mages cant compare with. Things that seem totally counter intuitive to being an assassin.

Nameless Voice32 votes

This.

If you have to play only to counter the enemy champion, then it's not fun any more.

Remember back in Season 3, how they talked about supports not getting to have fun because they had no gold and were forced to build the same three items? It wasn't fun for supports because they had to build the items the team needed and couldn't build what they wanted. Zed is like that. You have to build around him. You usually have to pick around him. And he still usually comes out even or ahead after the laning phase.

Troy24262123 votes

I'll toss in that, as a jungler, I feel robbed when the enemy team picks Zed. My mid laner always seems to lose and he's incredibly difficult to gank, only adding to his safety.

It's a very frustrating experience. My job is to pressure and merely by Zed existing it really reduces my viable options. Worse yet, mid is usually one of the easier lanes to gank, so it takes that away.

Not to mention his roams which can countergank me, and the ease at which he can traverse to dragon pit to interfere with my objective attempts there. Which again is hard to stop him from doing unless we're snowballing and I can deny vision because, again, really tough to gank him. These variables of Zed rarely seem to be considered.

I actually tend to pick better farm junglers (Like Rengar) when I see a Zed picked for this reason. Unless my mid has strong and hard CC and he wastes shadow stupidly, we'll be lucky to draw a flash.

Yfrappefort4 votes

{quoted}

I'll toss in that, as a jungler, I feel robbed when the enemy team picks Zed. My mid laner always seems to lose and he's incredibly difficult to gank, only adding to his safety.

It's a very frustrating experience. My job is to pressure and merely by Zed existing it really reduces my viable options. Worse yet, mid is usually one of the easier lanes to gank, so it takes that away.

Not to mention his roams which can countergank me, and the ease at which he can traverse to dragon pit to interfere with my objective attempts there. Which again is hard to stop him from doing unless we're snowballing and I can deny vision because, again, really tough to gank him. These variables of Zed rarely seem to be considered.

I actually tend to pick better farm junglers (Like Rengar) when I see a Zed picked for this reason. Unless my mid has strong and hard CC and he wastes shadow stupidly, we'll be lucky to draw a flash.

As a jungler, when I see Zed, LB or any champions with insane safety, I don't even gank the lane (unless they are pushed extremely far, and even then...). I know it will just be a waste of time (most of time not even blowing their flash) and I can be of much more help ganking top or bot.

YossarianSensei2 votes

But let's be real, every mid laner's gunna get that hourglass anyway

PrinceOfStorms15 votes

{quoted}

But let's be real, every mid laner's gunna get that hourglass anyway

While most midlaners are going to get their hourglass, being forced to rush it sets them behind, as the lack of sustain that they'd get from building a mana item first means they have to back more often, thus causing Zed to gain advantage simply for the -threat- of doing a perfectly safe 100-0 dive post-6.

76Summers4 votes

HOLD THE PHONE....other champs dictate your pick play style and bulid path too.. dont blame that on zed only.. most zed complains are biased as shit

Vaelix19 votes

{quoted}

HOLD THE PHONE....other champs dictate your pick play style and bulid path too.. dont blame that on zed only.. most zed complains are biased as shit

Okay sure, this is half true.. But..

Ahri / LB (Or most other high threat mid laners).. you'll want to get an early null mantle if they start bursting you hard or if you're failing to lane, but if for whatever reason you arent super behind you still have options to forsake it in favor of CDR / Resource while retaining the ability to survive if you avoid their combo.

With Zed you rush an Armguard / hourglass or you die, it doesnt matter if you're up in the lane, doing fine on gold, and generally playing well, you dont have the option to make the choice, you rush the item or you start or continue losing due to how his kit functions.

Yes you want to itemize, pick, and play around your opponent, but with Zed there is no choice based on How the game is currently being played out.

And my biggest gripe with Zed that seems to be ignored.. And is 100% your argument reversed.. Zed doesnt have to pick, itemize, choose a summoner, or really play, around his opponent. He builds the same path, same summoner, and same play style REGARDLESS. While asking you to do all of these things against him. Its biased in his favor merely from his existence.

Narasimha3 votes

With Zed you rush an Armguard / hourglass or you die, it doesnt matter if you're up in the lane

Its not Zed specific. Talon, Fiora, Riven, Jayce, and others. When these guys wander mid, their opponents build armor first. Are they causing the same issues as Zed?

Vaelix5 votes

{quoted}

Its not Zed specific. Talon, Fiora, Riven, Jayce, and others. When these guys wander mid, their opponents build armor first. Are they causing the same issues as Zed?

Its because of how his kit functions as I said. You need to be able to stop his ult proc / avoid the damage from how it will do amplified damage. (Though yes, you do want some defense against these champions.)

With Talon you stay out of his range or CC him, he doesnt become untargetable and he doesnt escape after comboing you.

With Fiora you keep her off the stack early, she doesnt have the ranged harass / CS tools that Zed has. (Though Fiora ult is poorly designed.)

With Riven you dodge her ult, as its a large % of her execute potential. She doesnt hit you with a targeted amplifier. Force her to lose damage gap closing into you with Q.

With Jayce you avoid his ranged burst and dont allow him to gap close into you, once again, he doesnt become untargetable.

With Zed he has ranged CS / Harass tools, becomes untargetable to avoid retaliation / CC, has targeted damage that requires an item to avoid in 90% of cases, and has his shadow escape to fall back into or get out afterwards. He also doesnt lose any damage to gap close like Fiora with Lunge, Riven with Broken Wings, and Talon with Shadow Assault.

Most of the champions listed have options other than defense to avoid their damage. For Zed once that ult is on you, in most cases your only option to avoid the procs damage is from Hourglass statis and exhaust.

Stephenizgod11 votes

The difference is their kits. Talon, Fiora, Riven, and Jayce can all be dealt with unless incredibly fed. Zed's kit does not allow the same amount of counter-play. Yes Fiora can go untargetable but it has short range and unlike Zed her gap closer is targeted and is a dash not a flash, meaning it can be stopped and requires you to be in range. So a good aimed CC or just not being in range of them will shut down all of those you mentioned where as Zed as 2 ways of completely nullifying your skillshots by dodging them (unless its a targeted stun but not many of those exist still) or by diving you safely no matter where you are.

Basically Zed has less counterplay to his kit then those mentioned.

The Ecdysiast9 votes

No, they're not. Simply because they can't easily farm under the tower, all but Riven use mana, so they need flask or lose it, and against them you don't need to build Hourglass first, since they don't have Death Mark.

shadecrapper1 votes

Maybe talon, but that's it. You can poke most melees out of lane, but Zed is the only one that can really poke back and out range you. Jayce has poke but can be blocked by minions

Hąckerman1 votes

{quoted}

I dont hate Zed because hes a generalist.

I hate Zed because..

He forces 90% of picks to build defensively, but almost never has to alter his own build path. He forces 90% of picks to forsake their own resource to get an hourglass, but doesnt need to worry about his own resource. He forces 90% of picks to take exhaust to survive him, but never takes anything but ignite.

***Zed being picked in champ select dictates Your pick, your build path, your summoner spell, and your play style. ***

All the while CSing super easily, with a completely thoughtless passive, having insane safety that most others cannot match, and getting sustain from items for staying power most mages cant compare with. Things that seem totally counter intuitive to being an assassin.

You typically want to play around the enemy champ. Your other points are in general fairly accurate.

MrSexyHobo1 votes

{quoted}

I dont hate Zed because hes a generalist.

I hate Zed because..

He forces 90% of picks to build defensively, but almost never has to alter his own build path. He forces 90% of picks to forsake their own resource to get an hourglass, but doesnt need to worry about his own resource. He forces 90% of picks to take exhaust to survive him, but never takes anything but ignite.

***Zed being picked in champ select dictates Your pick, your build path, your summoner spell, and your play style. ***

All the while CSing super easily, with a completely thoughtless passive, having insane safety that most others cannot match, and getting sustain from items for staying power most mages cant compare with. Things that seem totally counter intuitive to being an assassin.

no one wants to pick a champ like wukong against zed which is the problem. wukong can kill zed in 3 rotations or less between lvls 1-2 because you have an att speed steriod that wins trades for you. it is very hard for zed to land abilities on wukong without being chunked super hard. wukong zones zed off of cs forcing zed to farm with his shadow. wukongs clone fucks over zeds all ins. by lvl 6 you can burst a zed at 60% hp before he even has a chance to shadow away. you can build offensive or defensive against zed while zed is forced to build glass cannon no matter what. wukong has better team fighting with his aoe damage and a knock up.

im pretty sure you just dont want to pick counters and want zed to conform to your play style

Easyyy2 votes

{quoted}

no one wants to pick a champ like wukong against zed which is the problem. wukong can kill zed in 3 rotations or less between lvls 1-2 because you have an att speed steriod that wins trades for you. it is very hard for zed to land abilities on wukong without being chunked super hard. wukong zones zed off of cs forcing zed to farm with his shadow. wukongs clone fucks over zeds all ins. by lvl 6 you can burst a zed at 60% hp before he even has a chance to shadow away. you can build offensive or defensive against zed while zed is forced to build glass cannon no matter what. wukong has better team fighting with his aoe damage and a knock up.

im pretty sure you just dont want to pick counters and want zed to conform to your play style

Wukong lanes are easy af just max e and whoop his ass everytime he goes in

ThePlasticSpork17 votes

For the love of God, I dislike Zed too, but he is NOT a generalist.

He has huge amounts of damage and mobility. He has NOTHING else in his kit. No utility except for a shitty slow, no tankiness, and his poke is much weaker than any champion that is dedicated to that purpose. If Zed can't safely go in because the enemy carries is getting good peel in teamfights, then all he can do is poke with his W-Q-E, which is going to deal MUCH less damage than, say, Xerath and Ziggs plinking your whole team from miles away.

Lee Sin is a generalist. He has tankiness, he has damage, he has mobility, he has utility, all built in to his kit. Jarvan is a generalist. He has all 4 of those things as well, complete with some decent poke with his Q.

Hell, even Ziggs is more of a generalist than Zed is. He fits pretty strongly into a poke/waveclear mage, but he still has mobility (not the best, but it's there, which is more than any other poke mage can say), strong burst on a single target if he lands his spells, impressive AOE, and strong utility/zoning, all in addition to his powerful poke and waveclear.

Zed is not a generalist. He just happens to be an assassin with a lot of safety involved, but he is not good at everything.

The Ecdysiast10 votes

He doesn't kill tanks or clear waves

Except he build bork and has that passive

No utility besides a slow

Except he doesn't need more than that when he has that blink.

He has no Poke

Except when you can land both Shuriken, and then there's the fact his resource refills itself while anyone else who pokes can run out

He can't do anything in teamfights

Except for ult his target, walk away and spam laugh when Death Mark kills them

And as for your argument about Lee, you're just adding to the fact that Energy users shouldn't be AD.

Kuroi861 votes

Except he build bork and has that passive

It's great for wave clearing, but Bork and his passive alone won't kill a tank unless the tank is significantly behind, which does happen too often and is one of the big problems for tanks in the current meta. Keeping up in cs can be a bit tricky and tank items aren't as cost efficient as they could be.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

It's not that tanks are behind a lot, it's that nowadays the tank items don't really stand up to the damage items. Your evidence is completely, true, but your point is the wrong one. (I still agree)

What you should say isn't that it's too easy to get behind as a tank, it's that it's too hard to get ahead so you don't die. It's that average tanks are at a disadvantage, not behind ones.

Kuroi861 votes

If that was the situation I run into when playing tanks, I'd say so. I don't feel that damage items are too strong when I go tank though. A lot of people hate on item 3035 , but even on an assassin like Zed, unless he's grossly fed and I'm just that far behind, he's going to lose the trade. For tanks like Chogath Malphite &Nautilus it's easy to take everything an assassin throws at you, laugh it off and walk away.
Simply put, an assassin with tank buster items still will struggle to 1v1 me so long as I am at the same level with an equal number of items. Zed item 3153 item 3142 item 3035 vs Chogath item 3068 item 3110 item 3102 A lot of people will say that Cho'Gath will die in this match up. I've made more Zed's run with their tail between their legs than I could count in this sort of match up.

Alientcp1 votes

I play Sion top and i had the pleasure to play vs zed a couple of tines. I can say some things.

For starters, he can really kill you unless you are careless or ganked (which is the same thing). Rushing armor is not an issue since you are the tank.

You outrange him with e, so, you can actually damage him, but still, you cant quite follow up with the rest of the combo (nor the ult).

He stills farm better than you and will outlast you, even with a flask, since he dont use mana, and his energy bar fills quickly without the need to aa (like lee or shen), or walk like yasuo.

Pretty annoying.

Åron9 votes

I think the major thing about Zed is how safe he is. There's no real tradeoff to going into a 1v2 because it's either you get a double, or you dont get any kills but survive due to your insane mobility. With other popular mid laners like Xerath, you don't risk going in (no matter what champ you're against) because there are so many risks, like ganks or mana restraints. Even with other assassins like Akali there is still a risk, but with Zed it is practically nonexistant

Ayame Isaki5 votes

This really is the heart of the problem with Zed. He is low risk/high reward.

Drekavil2 votes

His snowball potential is immense, his trade potential is immense, even if he dies killing a carry, more than likely the carry has more AoE and TF potential than Zed. His risk is near none if you think of it as a champ pick. The only thing he can do risk wise is not trade a carry, and like the OP said, requires someone to counter build him with zhonyas/QSS early/mid in order to stop him.

All in all I agree.

Abyssphere7 votes

His kit does everything for him. People complain about Kat having a good laning phase but at least she has to face repercussions for her trade attempts because any opponent can respond to QEW well. Zed just harasses from anything up to 1400 range and can spend the entire laning phase without ever getting near the enemy before 6, without missing any CS.

You know what has been a standard rule in this game for almost every assassin? A TERRIBLE laning phase allowing the opponent a chance to deny your snowball plus gain a lead themself. Akali is non-existant pre-6, Kat isn't the worst but struggles, Talon's mana destroys him. Zed? Waveclear and last hitting so easy, cheap and safe that he will not only not be bullied pre-6 but has a very strong chance of bullying the enemy laner out first because they most likely have a resource. He actively sets the enemy laner behind because he can very easily force an enemy mage to rush a Zhonya's, which just makes him being resourceless an even bigger advantage.

The LCS loves him because he's so "flashy" but I find it so tiresome to watch because no matter how "cool" his animations are, nothing he does is actually impressive. Poke that can outrange Xerath? Check. Easy escape? Check. Waveclear? Check. Braindead CSing? Check. You don't work for anything with him, no matter how much the shoutcasters try and claim you do. Pressing W twice is not an outplay.

I'm so sick of champs like him. They have all the kill potential and engage they could ever want but they're also champions of cowardly disengage. Call him exciting all you want but I find it much more interesting to watch someone who can't escape from anything he wants to. How an assassin who has "runs away easily" as a primary strength is considered cool is beyond me.

Eeyore6 votes

In my opinion:

  • Remove his energy refund completely.
  • Remove his bonus AD multiplier.
  • Flatten the bonus damage on his ultimate across all ranks - a percentage of his damage should scale based on the damage he deals. If it's too high early game then it's too high late game, and vice verse.
  • Gut his attack speed.
  • Separate CDR from Armor Penetration on Brutalizer.

With regards to the last one, someone on the LoL Wiki had quite a comprehensive go at reworking AD itemization (I will include most supplementary ideas):

  • Critical Strike
    • Runes removed.
    • Brawler's Gloves/Avarice Blade removed.
    • Damage reduced to 100% base AD from 100% total AD, referred to as the Critical Strike Modifier.
    • Spellblade (Sheen) now guarantees that your next attack will critically strike.
    • The following items can change your Critical Strike Modifier, with the one which would deal the greatest damage taking priority:
    • Iceborn Gauntlet - Critical strikes deal bonus damage equal to 100% total armor.
    • Infinity Edge - Critical strikes deal bonus damage equal to 100% TOTAL AD. (down from 150%)
    • Lich Bane - Critical strikes deal bonus damage equal to 50% AP.
    • Trinity Force - Critical strikes deal bonus damage equal to 200% base AD.
  • Cloak of Agility
  • Critical strike chance increased to 20% from 15%.
  • Builds into Wicked Hatchet and Youmuu's Ghostblade.
  • The Brutalizer
  • AD increased
  • Armor pen removed
  • Builds into Black Cleaver, Youmuu's Ghostblade and Zephyr
  • Malady (New Recipe: Dagger + gold)
  • Grants attack speed.
  • Grants UNIQUE Passive: On-hit damage.
  • Builds into Blade of the Ruined King, Dervish Blade, Devourer, Nashor's Tooth, Runaan's Hurricane, Statikk Shiv and Wit's End.
  • Phage
  • Rage (Passive) removed.
  • New Passive - Sunder: 10 Armor penetration
  • Builds into Black Cleaver and Trinity Force.
  • Wicked Hatchet (New Recipe: Cloak of Agility + gold)
  • Critical strike chance increased to 20% from 10%.
  • Attack damage removed.
  • Revised Passive - Wicked Blades: Critical strikes causes your target to bleed for an additional 30 + (4 × level) physical damage over 3 seconds. This damage will stack cumulatively.
  • Builds into Phantom Dancer and Infinity Edge/Lord Van Damm's.
  • Zeal (New Recipe: Dagger + Dagger + gold)
  • Critical strike chance removed.
  • %MS removed.
  • New Passive - Rage: On-hit movement speed, increasing on-kill.
  • Builds into Phantom Dancer, Trinity Force and Zephyr.
  • Black Cleaver (New Recipe: Phage + Brutalizer)
  • Armor Penetration named Sunder.
  • Last Whisper
  • 35% armor pentration removed.
  • Now grants 50% bonus-armor penetration.
  • Phantom Dancer (New Recipe: Wicked Hatchet + Zeal)
  • %MS removed.
  • New Passive - Rage: On-hit movement speed, increasing on-kill/crit.
  • New Passive - Wicked Blades: Critical strikes causes your target to bleed for an additional 30 + (4 × level) physical damage over 3 seconds. This damage will stack cumulatively.
  • Statikk Shiv (New Recipe: Zeal + Malady)
  • Critical strike chance removed.
  • %MS removed.
  • New Passive - Rage: On-hit movement speed, increasing on-kill.
  • New Passive: Your basic attacks deal 30 bonus magic damage on-hit. The damage is increased to 60 on critical strikes and will splash to nearby targets.
  • New Passive: Moving increases your critical strike chance by 10% for every 100 units moved, resetting on critical strike.
  • Trinity Force
  • Health and mana increased.
  • Critical strike chance and %MS removed.
  • Gains Sunder.
  • Youmuu's Ghostblade (New Recipe: Brutalizer + Cloak of Agility)
  • Critical strike chance increased to 20% from 15%.
  • Armor pen removed.
  • Critical strikes reduced the item's cooldown by 3 seconds.
  • Zephyr (New Recipe: Zeal + Brutalizer)
  • %MS removed.
  • New Passive - Rage: On-hit movement speed, increasing on-kill.

And my own additions:

  • Runegorger (Recipe: Long Sword + Forbidden Idol)
  • Grants 15 attack damage, 50% base mana regen and 10% CDR.
  • Passive - Essence Reaver: Basic attacks restore 1.5% of your missing mana.
  • Blade of the Ruined King (New Recipe: B. F. Sword + Malady)
  • Grants 80 AD and 30% attack speed.
  • Lifesteal removed.
  • Active removed.
  • Passive damage changed to 5% target's bonus health from 8% target's missing health. Damage is doubled in critical strikes.
  • Now grants: Basic attacks grant (10% AD) attack speed. Attacks against champions cause this effect to stack up to 3 times.
  • Bloodthirster (New Recipe: B. F. Sword + Bilgewater)
  • Life steal reduced to 15% from 20%.
  • Overheal passive now works on all healing effects, instead of only life steal.
  • Cap changed to 60-400 (40 + 20 × level) from 50-350.
  • Now grants Blade of the Ruined King's old active.
  • Essence Reaver (New Recipe: B. F. Sword + Runegorger)
  • Grants 80 attack damage, 50% base mana regen and 10% CDR.
  • Lifesteal removed.
  • Passive - Essence Reaver: Basic attacks restore 1.5% of your missing mana.
aperson15 votes

Zed's objective damage is way too high. Did you see how fast that Baron melted? I assure you it wasn't Corki's autoattack damage that did it. IMO they should remove the % bonus on his W passive and really destroy his auto-attack speed to like almost 0.625, then shuffle power into his Q and shadow ratios. His autos come out way too fast right now.

OperationDEEZ15 votes

What do you mean the AS nerf "Didn't go far enough"? It did JACK SHIT.

SgtCrispy5 votes

He's supposed to be an assassin, but he's so much more

He really isn't, he's just an assassin. He offers no utility whatsoever and his entire kit is just designed to kill one person. Even other assassins like LeBlanc at least have a root and a slow. If Zed's team is behind he's completely useless.

And then late game he has an even harder time when everybody has a zhonyas or QSS. The complaints about Zed on this forum are honestly baffling to me, he's much better to play against than assassins like LeBlanc or Talon because you can at least have time to react when he jumps on you instead of just being instagibbed.

The Ecdysiast8 votes

LeBlanc and Talon have a resource they need to watch. LeBlanc and Talon can't kill tanks any more. LeBlanc and Talon aren't split-pushers. LeBlanc and Talon are real assassins, not assassins who can do everything. And Talon only has a slow as well. I don't see you arguing that HE needs to be buffed up to Zed's status.

Rakvir4 votes

I'm legitimately confused: this morning I was the one bullying Zed with full-AP Nunu.

True, he came ridiculously close to killing me like...twice, but I'd always walk away with a sliver of health left and once laning phase ended he literally couldn't do anything without at least 2-3 teammates to back him up. He was able to down anyone else on my team 1v1 but not me.

Don't run away, take someone with good AP ratios on auto-targeted abilities so he can't just use his disappearing act to dodge every last skillshot and some spellvamp (or in Nunu's case, have at least one or two minions to munch on), and keep poking him, circling around the minion clump, maybe you'll even get him to get close to a bush with your jungler.

Don't let up. Make him pay for every last bit of CS he wants to try for. CHALLENGE HIM!

I hate Zed and I hate his mechanics. I will never play that god-forsaken annoyance (though I might already own him, I honestly forget, but if I do then it was a completely stupid waste of my IP).

But so many people like to play more popular champions even when they KNOW they are going to face Zed.

Don't play flashy if simple works. True, if you want to be diverse and able to pull off all manners of trickery, you go right ahead. But chances are you will not win lane vs Zed if they are as good as a player as you are at whatever you decided on that needs to do a bunch of fancy-shmancy crud to get 'er done.

I am a crap player compared to most. If I started doing rank again, I guarantee you I'd be lucky to end the season at Bronze III, but if I can beat a Zed and win lane to the point where he hides under turret, not even trying to farm when minions are dead-even in the middle and I know damn well his jungler ain't there with us, then pretty much everyone else in this discussion can beat him if they don't lose their nerve and play to the expected reactions Zed players like to intimidate other players into doing on a regular basis.

But of course one could say they were a terrible Zed but given the plays he was making on literally every other person? It's doubtful. Give HIM a taste of uncertainty, make HIM do risky things, force HIM to stand up to you (and get punished) or slink away like the cowardly style he emphasizes so much.

You can do it! I believe in you all! =D

Junkο4 votes

I don't hate Nidalee because she can do anything. I hate Nidalee BECAUSE OF THE INVISIBLE FUCKING SPEARS THAT HIT YOU FOR 1/2 FOLLOWED BY COUGAR NID JUMPING ON YOU

SwapShadows3 votes

No he's a champion that when played by someone like bjergsen who has completely mastered him, he will completely show his true power.

Let another LCS midlaner that's not pobelter play him and completely suck

Solaxo3 votes

I don't hate Zed for being good at many things. And he isn't even good at many things. He has different problems

xGvPx3 votes

Interesting argument, but I think Zed is a lot more toxic than Nidalee ever was. Zed's ability to go all-in with an escape is something few champions really have. But the OP is correct in that a huge part of what makes Zed toxic is he can farm better than other assassins in that he does not necessarily need to be in melee range to get minions. Jax and Rengar, for example, have huge all-ins, but if they want minions (especially Jax), they need to melee them. Same for Master Yi, aside from Alpha Strike. Same for Evelyn, for the most part. Fizz. I don't think any other assassin has the range of Zed's shadow attack as a poke?

But yeah, most assassins are built around kill gold. Nidalee--who, of course, is not an assassin--is definitely a better farmer after her ult changes, but she still isn't the top farmer in that regard, unless she commits to melee. Zed, on the other hand, stays competitive without always needing to be in melee range. He has a really flexible kit that has a telegraph that isn't easy to perceive.

Junkο1 votes

a lot more toxic than Nidalee ever was

You have clearly have not experienced the pre-rework Nidalee where her spear dealt 4 times the damage while having an insane hitbox and having an even higher chance of being invisible than they do now.

xGvPx3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQYnrY6w,comment-id=00100000,timestamp=2015-03-23T13:27:58.731+0000)

You have clearly have not experienced the pre-rework Nidalee where her spear dealt 4 times the damage while having an insane hitbox and having an even higher chance of being invisible than they do now.

Do you mean the range bug, where people would hop and flash for greater distance damage?

Eh. Nidalee is like Blitzcrank. They can miss all game long and then if they land one Q it can be a game changer. That in and of itself is toxic, but Zed can harass anyone early and can destroy anyone mid while always have a free escape. Like, I just don't see Nidalee as as toxic. I never have. Not even when she could hop through walls.

To me, spears are about positioning. You can't position out of a good Zed shadow, which goes through minions.

Junkο4 votes

Yep you have not experienced it. At least you can dodge Zed's harass and even if you get hit you take 200-300 damage. Nidalee threw a spear, missed completely, and your entire health bar just disappeared despite being far away from the spear. And then she had an absurd base and ratio on heal so harassing her or trading with her was useless. The fact that she was allowed to 100-50 tanks for so long with a broken hitbox is amazing too.

xGvPx2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iQYnrY6w,comment-id=0010000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-24T17:23:20.024+0000)

Yep you have not experienced it. At least you can dodge Zed's harass and even if you get hit you take 200-300 damage. Nidalee threw a spear, missed completely, and your entire health bar just disappeared despite being far away from the spear. And then she had an absurd base and ratio on heal so harassing her or trading with her was useless. The fact that she was allowed to 100-50 tanks for so long with a broken hitbox is amazing too.

That is pretty bad, but I guess what I mean to say is Zed's harass goes through minions, too, and it's a pretty nice poke for an assassin whereas Nidalee is built entirely around her spear (for the most part).

I've always thought she heals too much, and that would be what I would nerf.

Thanks for posting pic, I'll YouTube it a little. I've never really had trouble playing against Nid, but like I said, I don't know how you fix her when she can miss all game but make one connection and change the game. They did put more emphasis on her cougar form, and now everyone and their mother throws a spear and hops in to "make plays," but every late-game is the same: one hit and the enemy team is forced to turtle.

Only Play Darius3 votes

He is near impossible to zone from cs, using his shadow and shurikens a good zed player will get 90% of cs regardless of how his opponent is playing.

As if that wasn't bad enough, his passive means he never fails to last hit minions with his basic attacks.

And lets not forget his 750AD late game, and 100% AD scaling on basic attacks.

iMaB3AST3 votes

I just realized something u pointed out. I been a zed player for about 1 year now and i his build consists of lots of long swords. I build hydra, botrk, lw and bt (depending on my opponents). Hydra and botrk both have 2 long swords in their build paths and lw and bt have 1 long sword. i can buy 6 long swords early and each of those long swords could be built into something good for zed. A simple solution is to nerf his attackspeed and turn him into a spell reliant assassin and less of a burst u down, split push for days, aa to death assassin.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

No. I hate Nidalee because the question of whether she and you fight is always in her hands. Any time you try to go in on her or chase her, she'll just hop hop hop away, and all she needs to do is just wait for you to step on a trap or get hit by a spear and then she'll go all in on you and chunk your health bar or just outright kill you.

This is also part of why I dislike Zed, because he also gets to decide whether an engagement happens.

Tis a nice day2 votes

Lack of CC?

Saianna2 votes

Imo Talon is healthy assassin. If he f**ks something up, he'll most likely die. His kit in lategame doesn't 100-0 ppl in 2 seconds, so he has to take a risk to finish his target

Zed is imo wolf in sheeps skin. So called "healthy" yet gives almost no counterplay against him (unless you always take Exhaust/Zhyona no matter enemy u face)

Depóngo2 votes

I'm sorry to disagree with a few things. One thing is, when I play jungle I find Zed to be quite easy to gank.

I simply wait around a few seconds for him to use his W for harass and then I jump in. At that point he has no mobility and ganking him would be easy.

Another thing is, I can play offensively against Zed and still be able to win. If I'm playing mage, let's face it, I'll buy Zhonya's anyway and in almost any other matchup. He doesn't "dictate" the way I'm gonna play against him. So many mages win way more than him. Sure, countering would be great if it seems he will carry, but that is completely the same with other champions. The best counter to a roam is - with a roam. You just follow him to bot lane and counter gank. If you ping MIA and bot doesn't notice it or ignores it, ping on their lane with danger and on the bot lane river bush as your coming down to counter gank.

Many times it seems that I'm the only that enjoys playing against him, not only as him. It's a skilled matchup, come on, that's how his kit works. He can poke me, I can also poke. He can cast his ult, so can I.

The assassin role is meant to be high mobility with high damage and it has always been that way. He can kill you and get out, yes, but that's what most other assassins can do too - Talon, Akali, Kassidin, etc., just to name a few.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

You jump on him when he uses his Q from under the tower?

Depóngo1 votes

Well, no, I don't gank him if he's under tower just like I wouldn't against almost every other champion. If Zed is under tower that means my mid laner is winning and that I should be somewhere else.

Just because he can farm under tower easily doesn't mean my mid laner can't freeze the lane or still poke him whenever he goes for the caster minions or even the front minions. Zed may try to roam and get some kills, but the way to stop him is the same - just tell the mid laner to follow them and counter gank. If I'm close, I'll go help out too and we win bot lane.

Drackolus2 votes

He's not punished for failing to assassinate a target. He can still contribute to teamfights through poke and his basic abilities.

This is pretty much my biggest gripe for -any- assassin. Or, really, any champion - a lack of punishment for mistakes. Though, let's be real here, when it comes to champions who get no punishment for anything... Nasus

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