Riot, what's your justification for the Hunter's Machete changes currently on PBE?

mi ramfan·Jun 30, 2014·2 votes·4,224 views

I'm really not happy about them for a number of reasons.

First of all, the changes completely fail to address the problem. The problem wasn't that junglers were too sustained, it was that the fast clearing junglers were too sustained and the slow clearing junglers were not sustained nearly enough. all just get the living crap kicked out of them on their first clears, which really hurts their viability in any kind of competitive game modes. Just picking them is asking to be invaded and ganked at your second buff for a free kill.

Second of all, the changes on PBE just make the listed junglers even WORSE. What is Sejuani or Nautilus going to do with +10 attack damage against minions? They don't benefit nearly as much from it as do, and those junglers are perfectly fine right now.

These changes make the strong junglers even stronger while making the weak junglers even weaker. Honestly, I'm not sure it's even going to be possible to clear with jungle Nautilus anymore after this patch. I was already coming within 100 HP of dying at Red my first clear-I guess I'll just play Naut support and never touch Sejuani at all under any circumstance.

Riot, please explain your rationale for these changes.

16 Comments

RiotPhreakJun 30, 20146 votes

Keep in mind the old Machete style regen benefited champions like Lee Sin, Vi, and Nocturne: Ones with really high attack speed. By being damage reduction instead, the "regen" given to fast clearers is much lower than the regen given to slower clearers, since it will block more damage overall.

mi ramfanJul 1, 20142 votes

See, I disagree with your assertion that damage reduction is health regeneration. Damage reduction is just that: damage reduction. Armor and MR definitely improve the effectiveness of purchased health regeneration, but they do not themselves constitute regeneration.

The damage reduction has the same effectiveness for the strong junglers as the weak junglers, so it's a net neutral effect. The loss of the +10% damage really hurts junglers who don't scale well with AD (like Nautilus and Sejuani), since they don't gain nearly as much from the AD as Vi and Lee Sin changes.

While the damage reduction change isn't a straight nerf, the %damage reduction->10 AD definitely is.

hakE69Jul 1, 20142 votes

Quick and simple question: Why isn't machete's icon upswept?

Kari ArisuJul 1, 20142 votes

Sorry Phreak, but, what? Both situations benefit the faster clearer.

If the fast clearer kills the monster while taking 10 hits and the slow clearer kills the monster while taking 15 hits, for let's say 10 damage. Total damage before machete would be 100 vs 150. Damage after machete would be 50 vs 75. Yeah, you blocked more damage. You still took more damage because of it.

Sneak DogJul 1, 20141 votes

Imagine a champion with 30% bonus attack speed clearing a camp in 10 hits, taking 15. Healing 10 on-hit heals him 100, reducing damage by 5 heals him 75.

Now a slow champion clears a camp in 10 hits taking 25. He'd heal 100 and 125 respectively.

This change makes champions without attack speed bonuses benefit just as much from the machete 'heal' as champions with. Generally, champions with built-in as are offensive and therefore fast clearers (only exception being J4?), meaning this will nerf them. Buff the machete power level (make the damage reduction relatively high) and effectively you can selectively buff ability-using clearers, which include all tanks but J4. I don't think J4 needs a buff.

It's just a very minor buff Imo, because it still doesn't address their clear speed, but that's probably an intended earlygame weakness, you'd need to buff that on upgrades of machete.

CritkeeperJun 30, 20145 votes

5 damage block is worth 5 hp for each time you are struck. That means unless you can exceed the combined attacks per second from each monster in the camp with your own attack speed, 5 damage block is worth more health per second than 5 health on hit.

Depending on whether or not the damage block is applied before or after armor would determine how much MORE valuable it is than 5 health on hit, but it will be worth more.

Except against wight.

But wraiths for example, you block 5 damage from EACH OF THEM every time they hit you, so that really adds up faster than you restoring 5 health every time YOU ATTACK one of them.

Understand?

Lord Graves IIIJun 30, 20143 votes

I think they hope that it gives tank junglers just enough viability to survive the early game, while still letting early game be a weakness for them.

Cause if tank junglers weren't vulnerable early game then other junglers would be sorta pointless.

In fact that is what has happened when tank junglers dominated the meta.

Papy MougeotJun 30, 20143 votes

I dunno what you are talking about. I just played naut jungle and i'm high hp the whole time. Maybe nobody help you at your first buff but it's an other story.

Serpents EmbraceJun 30, 20142 votes

I disagree. The changes as a whole really well help tank kinglets, even without giving a stronger early game presence to kinglets that don't have one. Sejuani I'm especially excited to play them because the additional bonus health will work great with their abilities and other common itemization. Even if it benefits the meta junglers that's fine, because the change isn't really meant to disrupt them.

CerbearusJun 30, 20141 votes

Naut? Close to dying? What? Are you running on a level 1 account with no runes or masteries?

By the way, the 5 damage reduction against monsters will be perfect for those junglers who do struggle in clearing. Plus the new item Quill Coat gives armor (helps you survive invades).

Zester54Jun 30, 20141 votes

Problem is before that, you start with only 4 health potions instead of 5. Your health will be a lot lower then usual and you will have to back sooner. I do agree that the new item Quinn Coat does give you a lot of sustain and it will help champs like Maokai who need help clearing.

Arkon TriJul 1, 20141 votes

Why does anyone jungle with anyone other than...... Amumu

"We can be friends forever" - Amumu :)

DoujinsJul 1, 20141 votes

Because junglers like Lee Sin and Elise can destroy him at red buff.

CrimsonBlader24Jul 1, 20141 votes

Keep in mind though that by raising the price of Hunter's Machete to 325, the slow clearing junglers will not be able to buy a fifth health pot.

It also seems silly to price it at 325, because now when buy a Machete and 4 pots, there will be 10 gold leftover.

SlashStrikerJul 1, 20141 votes

the new machete man... would be pretty op IMO

before was 5 health per hit and now is -5 dmg from monsters. If 4 monsters are attacking you, you would take -20 less damage total.

I wanna try this so bad :3

however i think all jungle items, including wriggles, should give some mana because junglers like yi, warwick, udyr and so on use mana to cast spells

KingSmizzyJul 3, 20141 votes

My main issue with the new item 3207 is that it requires you to have another item before its main passive starts doing anything. If you just have this item it actually has less Hp than before, you need randuins or warmogs rushed after to even have bonus Hp. This means junglers who build an offense item inbetween wont actually have hp till like 25-30 minutes in.