Hello :)
A have a question about Zyras W.
Why does its passive give CD isntead of AP/MRpen?
This isnt an buff Zyra thread just curious why a mage doesnt have something more fitting in her kit?The CD is nice and all.But why not more burst?
RiotCertainlyT6 votesHi there. Zyra's W gives CDR for two reasons:
First, Seeds have relatively little inherent value. We wanted to ensure that Zyra could cast more spells as she began to replenish her seeds faster, because as you put more points into W, you are expressing a desire to have more plants.
Second, because we wanted Zyra to be able to buy non-CDR items. We wanted players to be able to buy the items that made sense for them in their particular game from the entire line of mage oriented items, such as Zhonya's or Abyssal Scepter, not be restricted to the (at the time) small pool of CDR items.
A bit of context: We struggled during her development to balance 0% CDR Zyra builds against 40% CDR Zyra builds. The latter could put so many seeds out that certain enemy team compositions felt completely stifled. When W's cooldown was at a healthy level assuming 40% CDR builds, all other item paths felt terrible. Giving Zyra "free" CDR (20% on release) was accompanied by raising the cooldown of her W to compensate, meaning that Zyra's effective CDR cap for Rampant Growth was 20%.
Today, it's unlikely we would make the same decision, as CDR is a much more accessible stat. This is the reason that I lowered Zyra's passive CDR on W from 20% at max rank to 10%. In a game now filled with CDR choices, the "free" 20% was actually stifling her ability to purchase items. Hopefully getting to 40% these days involves a good amount of choice and compromise without leaving the player feeling like they are struggling to get to cap if they so desire or going way over if they do opt for CDR items.
Kao Atlantis1 votesWow you are up early. Thanks for the insight on Zyra. I love hearing why things are done the way they are. The process of champion design and balancing is really interesting.
PokladnicaZla1 votesHi there. Zyra's W gives CDR for two reasons:
First, Seeds have relatively little inherent value. We wanted to ensure that Zyra could cast more spells as she began to replenish her seeds faster, because as you put more points into W, you are expressing a desire to have more plants.
Second, because we wanted Zyra to be able to buy non-CDR items. We wanted players to be able to buy the items that made sense for them in their particular game from the entire line of mage oriented items, such as Zhonya's or Abyssal Scepter, not be restricted to the (at the time) small pool of CDR items.
A bit of context: We struggled during her development to balance 0% CDR Zyra builds against 40% CDR Zyra builds. The latter could put so many seeds out that certain enemy team compositions felt completely stifled. When W's cooldown was at a healthy level assuming 40% CDR builds, all other item paths felt terrible. Giving Zyra "free" CDR (20% on release) was accompanied by raising the cooldown of her W to compensate, meaning that Zyra's effective CDR cap for Rampant Growth was 20%.
Today, it's unlikely we would make the same decision, as CDR is a much more accessible stat. This is the reason that I lowered Zyra's passive CDR on W from 20% at max rank to 10%. In a game now filled with CDR choices, the "free" 20% was actually stifling her ability to purchase items. Hopefully getting to 40% these days involves a good amount of choice and compromise without leaving the player feeling like they are struggling to get to cap if they so desire or going way over if they do opt for CDR items.
Wow,a red :)
Thanks you so much fpr the reply and the insight on her W. Do you mind answering another question?Why is her passive delayed?I know that being hit by an true damage nuke is un-fu,but it is also unfun for the player to shoot it after a 2 second delay.
MrBuffington3 votesCDR is amazing for a mage. It lets you get more spells out, which in turn, is more damage. Zyra isn't really a burst mage either (at least not like, say, LeBlanc). I would argue that CDR is more valuable on her kit than AP/MagicPen. Mages are most vulnerable when their cooldowns are up; what good is damage if it's always on cooldown?
PokladnicaZla1 votesWell,burst is better then DPS currently
Snailed1 votesThis isn't a 'currently' thing, This has always been the case. Season 1 veterans like myself will tell you this is so.
Plasma XCX1 votesWell she is primarily a support. And with her also being a mage, CDR fits both her need to rapidly snare and poke. If you want magic pen, buy some magic pen. Then what if you don't want to build AP on her and you are going full support, then AP and MP aren't going to be as good as CDR. CDR also can save her from buying more items to max the 40% reduction cap.
PokladnicaZla3 votesShe isnt primary a support.She is primary played as support,but is primray a Mage.
Besides on mages quality goes over quantity.
Orinne1 votesTell that to the mages (aka, pretty much everyone) that rush Athenes.
Snailed3 votesZyra was an awesome as a Mid laner when she first arrived on the scene. Too much damage in reality, so Riot nerfed her then nerfed ALL mages which pushed her into a not playable zone. Then pros started using her in LCS, and viola, she was now viable as a Support.
Her being a support was introduiced by the pro scene and was not Riots intention as her primary role.
Orinne1 votesBuild in passive AP or MPen is really just a fancy way of saying "extra base damage".
Also don't see why CD isn't any more fitting than AP/MPen. Mages and supports like to get their spells out faster as their builds tend to gate them with poor auto attacks. CD helps them accomplish this.
PokladnicaZla1 votesAfter she has been nerfed because of doing well in the support role she she gest 2/4/6/8/10% CD at lvl 18 (pre nerf it was 20%CD at lvl 18) It isnt fitting anymore because it has been nerfed,i mean,really 2%CD?!
So until she starts maxing CD its nearly useless.Zed (lvl 1 W 5%bonus AD,lvl 5 W 25% bonus AD) & Fiora (lvl 1 w 15 AD,lvl 5 W 35AD) have extra AD,so why cant a mage have extra AP/MRpen?
Orinne1 votesHer W is a one point wonder ability anyways. It isn't the first ability you should be maxing, nor should it have had a strong incentive to make you think otherwise.
You're trying to make two comparisons that aren't equivalent. The first being that you're comparing Zyra, a zone control and CC mage with some supportive tendencies, to an AD assassin and AD melee carry. Different classes have a different general design that they follow. A better comparison would be one between Annie, Morgana, even Anivia. The first two of those three are in the same position as Zyra (Mage as primary role, but generally played as support). Anivia has zone control and CC tendencies like Zyra. Know what they all have in common? None of them get bonus AP/MPen built-into their kit.
Second, you're making the assumption that AP and AD are equivalent stats when they're far from it. AP is far easier to stack where AD values get to be about 50-75% of what AP values hit. AD adds power to auto attack damage, where AP does not do this unless there is a built-in on-hit effect on a mage (rare). Tying into the first issue, AD, AS, Ar Pen, etc. function as built-in kit steroids on carries that need them in order to amplify synergy with big ticket items like Bloodthirster and BotRK. AP is not a steroid; it's a stat that you need to build towards because of how mages work; high bases and burst effects on their spells compared to spells from other roles.
Finally, to elaborate on my post, if you need to add built-in AP to a champion's kit, that's literally just adding flat AP, because "needs more burst", you may as well just add more base damages to the abilities, because that accomplishes the exact same effect with far better clarity. An AP% extra effect could be interesting, but is overkill on Zyra and would have obvious ludicrous synergy with Deathcap. Built-in Mpen should be a special stat on few champions, which again, isn't needed on Zyra. If you're interested in fixing her damage, go for something simpler that fits with her design, like her plants. Have W buff her plants with levels, so add something like:
Rampant Growth: Plant Damage: 23 + (6.5 × Zyra's level) + 20/22.5/25/27.5/30% AP Plant Health: 6/7/8/9/10
Would be far more thematic, and less "bandaid fix"/nonsensical than throwing in random AP/Mpen that no other mage gets just for free, randomly.
PokladnicaZla1 votesThanks for the reply
I wasnt trying to fix Zyra,just was wondering why she has CD(that is were underwhelming at earlier levels),instead of something that could buff her earlier game phase.
You arent right about AD and AP. AD>AP
AD champions can AA and deal damage and also have abilities that do that fr them.Playing mages takes much more skill then playing adcs and assassins (solo lane).
Orinne1 votesI never said one was better than the other. I said that they function differently due to the nature of AD and AP themselves, in addition to the champions that buy them.
Nausicäa 1 votesCertainlyT your nerfs to Zyra made her pretty much never played either support or mid, not that she was a particularly strong or popular mid before the changes to begin with. Can you now revert some of these changes or give her some buffs?
I think its pretty apparent now that your nerfs were overkill.