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Giving mages and AP mid champions more diversity with more mana items

PokladnicaZla··31 votes·1,830 views

Using Blackmarket brawler items to make a wider range of items for mages. REWORKED THEM AGAIN. V1.0 OF MOST ITEMS.PLEASE GIVE FEEDBACK.ADDED NOTES AND MORE CLARITY. THOSE ITEMS ARENT PRIMARY MEANT TO GIVE DAMAGE,BURST OR PEN,BUT TO MANAGE MANA AND LATER BECOME MORE POWERFUL WITH OTHER ITEMS OR WHEN THE TIME COMES. ->

LOST CHAPTER Mana restoration passive Unique now˝Mana front˝

RITE OF RUIN V1.0 "When all their works have crumbled, their hearts will be laid bare." item 3802 + item 3108 + item 1052 + 255gold => 2490 +80 AP

  • 20% CDR +350 mana Unique passive ˝Mana front˝ ; Kills and assists restore 20% of your maximum mana. Unique Passive : RAZING Hitting spell on champions gives you a stack of ˝RAZE˝ for 5 seconds.Upon doing damage to enemies 7 times,your next damaging spell will deal 90(+15%AP) AoE damage to the first enemy hit. 8 second cooldown NOTES -DoT abilities don't give additional stacks
  • AoE hitting enemies give stacks for number of enemies hit.
  • If you ˝Raze fulled˝ abilities is AoE it will proc on the first enemy hit.
  • More hit by the ˝Raze˝ability won't give additional stacks -> This item is mostly intendet for mages who rely on constantly dealing ability damage and gives reward for hitting abilities in teamfights.

POX ARCANA V1.0 "Wealth, land, secrets, love: how little they cherish when their bodies betray them." item 3802 ++item 3136 + 355 gold=> 2755 gold

  • 60 AP +300 mana
  • 10% CDR +200 health Unique Passive ˝Mana front˝; Kills and assists restore 20% of your maximum mana. Unique Passive : Arcane Pox Damaging spells apply a stack of ˝Pox˝ . Each stacks makes your next spell ignore 3 of your targets MR.Stacks up to 8 times. NOTES -This effect can't ignore magic resist below the value of 30 *.
  • DoT will give only 2 stacks. -Highest values of MR reduction is 24
    -> It's meant as a niche item against highly tanky enemies.

NETHERSTRIDE GRIMOIRE V0.1 "Walking our path, you make fast progress." item 3802 + item 3113 + item 1052 + 505 gold => 2690 gold +85 AP +300 mana +10% CDR +8% Movementspeed Unique passive ˝Mana front˝; Kills and assists restore 20% of your maximum mana. Unique Passive; RAZING ; Damaging someone for over 30% of their health over 2 seconds, grants you 15% movement speed boost decaying over 1.5 seconds. It has a 10 second cooldown. NOTES -> Meant for slippery mages or mobility assassins ( Ahri ,Fizz ,Leblanc )

MORELLONOMICON [REWORKED-again*] V1.0 Instead of making morello's an item that primary use is mana,I'm going to make into a niche item that mages can buy through the game to counter sustain comps. 3 goals

  1. Making it a niche item and situational
  2. Making the enemy team feel like you opponent actually invested an item slot to counter you
  3. To not make the item feel like it wasted you a slot,but that it's useful. item 3108 + item 1058 + item 1052 + 665gold =>3250 gold +110 AP +10% CDR Unique Passive ; Malice Damaging an enemy below 40% of their HP applies a stack of Grievous wounds for 5 seconds. Each stacks reduces the healing of that unit by 10%.Stacks Max 5 stacks. Upon not hitting the enemy for 5 seconds,the Grievous Wounds stacks decay over 2 seconds(Similar to Ashe's Q stacks). NOTE If you applied 3 stacks of GW on your enemy and he manages to get away,after 5 second the 3 stacks decays over the duration of 2 seconds. -DoTs apply only 2 stack

Helpful associates SILVERJUST

133 Comments

Catastrop4 votes

I'm amazed at the people in this thread, do you really think OP means for 20% mana after a kill or assist to stack? Stop being pedantic and actually add to the discussion.

Anyway, to OP, I think Pox Arcana is way too low on AP to even consider unless you're a tanky fighter/mage hybrid type(unless that's what you're going for, if so, ignore this comment). I'd suggest upping the AP to 75 and compensate by upping the price to match the stats.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

OP kindly thanks you for your contribution.

I'm not really sure about giving it AP above 70,since it gives HP and pen that is later on. I could myb up it to 65 (even 70),but also increase the combine cost? Now it depends,which champion would even consider buying this item?

Catastrop2 votes

{quoted}

OP kindly thanks you for your contribution.

I'm not really sure about giving it AP above 70,since it gives HP and pen that is later on. I could myb up it to 65 (even 70),but also increase the combine cost? Now it depends,which champion would even consider buying this item?

Oh lol, it gives scaling flat pen, I could have sworn it was a more tuned down version of the original damage based pox effect when I read through at first. With that consideration then, 60 ap is a solid amount. I can definitely see it being build champions like Swain/Cass etc. Since they can load it onto a number of targets at the same time or quickly enough that they can get the full effect rotation.

Silverjust3 votes

I like this ideas but why has morellos manaregen, it is intended only for enchanters?

PokladnicaZla2 votes

You mean ˝Rite of Ruin˝ ? It had the same effect on Black Market Brawlers,so I kinda left it,because I didn't have any unique idea for it's passive. Just went like ˝Why complicate? Some mages want lots of mana resource and why shouldn every item have some mumbo jumbo on them?˝ Went with simplicity. If you have any suggestion feel free to do so. :)

Silverjust2 votes

oh right I meant "RITE OF RUIN" they changed morellos to give flat mana and mana on kills/assists instead of manaregen, because they decided mages should work for their mana maybe it could give 30% maxmana instead of the 20%? Or any better Ideas?

PokladnicaZla2 votes

That would be a good idea.Going to add it.Myb increase the AP to 90?

Baron of Bread3 votes

Pox Arcana could a probably use a cooldown. The likes of Swain and Karthus would be procing that effect way to easily and often. Giving it even a 3 second cooldown won't hurt the types that aren't going to really abuse it with DoT/Multi-hit spells but will still allow those DoT/Multi-hit casters to use it well.

I don't understand why you are giving Morellonomicon health and mpen. If you are trying to make it a niche buy then you shouldn't give it such general stats in addition to the AP, mana and CDR.

Handy Sandy 2 votes

item 3802 is an extremely strong item to have in lane, and if you can build it twice then op

PokladnicaZla7 votes

I beg your pardon? Why would someone build it twice?

Handy Sandy 1 votes

to later build into other items

like instead of getting double item 1056 and then just selling them since they don't build into anything you would rather get double item 3802

PokladnicaZla3 votes

It's the same as it is currently in the game.I have never seen people build 2 of them item 3802 has an unique effect,so 2 item 3802 s wouldn't stack.

It's the same as with item 3067 ,item 3101 ,item 3108 ,item 3113 etc.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

It's the same as it is currently in the game.I have never seen people build 2 of them item 3802 has an unique effect,so 2 item 3802 s wouldn't stack.

It's the same as with item 3067 ,item 3101 ,item 3108 ,item 3113 etc.

That's because it only builds into one item right now

Silverjust5 votes

there beeing more buildoptions does not change anything, the mana-passive won't stack, so why stack this item?

ForgiveColour2 votes

Implying mages dont have enough diveristy and have mana problem after 1st back in live game LUL

PokladnicaZla9 votes

The thread isn't about mages need more mana or easier mana management,but that mages lack choices in that matter. Most AP mindlaners who have mana buy item 3165 ,which was actually supposed to be a niche item against healers/sustained enemies.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

No, not at all. Before the mage update, you bought Morelleo if you wanted more damage, not explicitly for the GV. Most people bought Athene's because it gave way more Mana regen, which was what people wanted, and Morelleo used to be the shit choice. Not because it was Niche, but because it didn't supply most Mages with the mana regen they wanted.

I even remember the time when Athene's was the poor choice, and mages went Morelleo's because it was just better than Athenes. GV was always a bonus, never the main reason it was bought.

PokladnicaZla3 votes

Actually I remember that time,but didn't sometimes mages build both or trade Athen later on for Morellos to counter Mundo,Vlad & etc?

I know it doesnt mean much,but GW shouldn't really be a stat that is in every game just because the other stats that go with the item makes it the best purchase.IMO*

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Season 5? I went Morello every game as Ahri unless they came back first back with a Chalice, in which case I bought a Chalice too, to keep up with their shoving.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Yeah, you chose Morelleo for damage, but if they took Athenes, you get outclassed in Pushing. If an item forces you to buy the exact item to deal with it, one of those items is clearly the stronger one, with the other one meant for more niche cases.

VoraciousX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jfXWzbEv,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-05-27T19:20:34.924+0000)

No, not at all. Before the mage update, you bought Morelleo if you wanted more damage, not explicitly for the GV. Most people bought Athene's because it gave way more Mana regen, which was what people wanted, and Morelleo used to be the shit choice. Not because it was Niche, but because it didn't supply most Mages with the mana regen they wanted.

I even remember the time when Athene's was the poor choice, and mages went Morelleo's because it was just better than Athenes. GV was always a bonus, never the main reason it was bought.

I always bought Athenes over Morello unless I needed GW before it was stolen. It gave AP and MR and I preferred it's mana passive.

As for the items, I think you should replace Netherstride Grimoire for Staff of Flowing Water. That item was built for roamers and since the item you made is basically an AP item with Phage on it, Staff of Flowing water would fit better for mid laners imo. If you don't remember the item, it gave AP, I believe move speed, and increased movement speed and mana regen while in the river. I personally only like Pox Arcana out of the item suggestions you have, as Rite of Ruin probably doesn't even need the whole "Mana Rush" passive honestly since Morellonomicon alone gets away with just the Lost Chapter passive and 400 mana. In fact your Rite of Ruin item basically is just a buffed Morellonomicon without grievous wounds.

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

PokladnicaZla6 votes

You buy Morello's because it's the nearly only option that gives mages AP/CDR and Mana management. Seeker's is bought to survive,not to manage your resources.

Assassins could really use more items,but consider that they can choose from AD items and later even build tank items to survive. It's not a debate who has more items to choose from,since it's fact that nearly all classes could use more items (some more than others),but to fix the stale copy paste build of mages.

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

PokladnicaZla4 votes

Assassins can build marksmen items,any bruiser items that has a decent amount of AD attached to it and can later pick some tanks items for survivability. Considering there are a lot more mages in the game than assassin,their item pool should be bigger.

Can we agree that both could use new shiny items to wreck on the Summoner's rift?

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

iDemacia6 votes

He didn't say every marksman item stop being so thick.

You also failed to mention Edge of Night and last whisper and the items that build out of it.

Also I have seen Zed's/ Talons among others get Mercurial Scimitar, Black Cleaver, Maw of Malmortius (not necessarily all together) etc...so yes, they do in fact have more options than mages and can (and do) build some <----- not all (nobody ever said all of them) adc items.

LyingOnLine2 votes

You've got a mistaken assumption.

Diversity in mana items is useless because players will just figure out which one is always the most powerful at any given time and then just build that.

PokladnicaZla3 votes

Really depends.In theory yes.

But ˝Pax Arcana˝ is more useful on champions that have AoE abilites,which means some AP champions who excel at killing single targets might waste it's passive. LB tho her W is AoE might not be able to use it and be better of with ˝Netherstride Grimoire˝.

I share your concern and the reality is that one will always the msot popular,but the goal is to at least find 5 champions who would be better of using the other 2,because they either better synergize with their kit or are better in their current situation.

doiminat0r36002 votes

The problem I have with the mage items is the cooldown on everything. I feel as if I build any build on a mage, I'm gonna get 40% CDR no matter what. I also feel like we have to build item 3165 or item 3027 or item 3003 to have any kind of signifcant mana upkeep.

Not to mention the removal of spell vamp means mages are the only ones that still have to back late game. No Mana regen + No spell vamp = forced to back because I can't do anything without mana.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Mages are supposed to manage their mana,it's a stat meant to maintain their power.

Yeah,it's a shame for Spel vamp.Just because they couldn't balance Vlad and myb Swain XD

doiminat0r36001 votes

If you have no mana, you have to wait an eternity to get it back or hit B. It's a shame that in order to get mana back, you have to buy item 3114 (which builds into nothing offensive).

The problem isn't that we have too little mana, it's that we have no way to get it back once it's gone. That's why mana pools worked when they were small. Now that everything adds mana but nothing adds regen, mages are forced to back after a few rotations late game because their abilities sometimes cost 100+ mana each. A mage with 1200 mana would have to back after 3 rotations back to back unless they had sustainable regen.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Why would mages want healing and shielding power?

No mage has 4 skills that end up costing 400 mana together....

That's intended for mages to manage their mana and not just randomly spamming spells.

chipndip11 votes

My issue: You can't be having this "Restore X on kills/assists" passive on a complete mana + high ap item. It'll become perma-built on any ap champ that uses mana. Also, max mana + mana regen? The fuck?

PokladnicaZla9 votes

Umm,that's how current item 3802 and item 3165 function.They restore 20% of max mana upon kill/assist.I didn't change that . . .

Rite of Ruin is meant as an option on mages or any other class that consumes a lot of mana,

chipndip12 votes

Yeah, and Morello is permanently built on most champs that use AP. Continuing with shoving that passive down more items will cause a power creep based on which items have it.

PokladnicaZla10 votes

So,your solution is to leave only one mana item ,because it's simpler than to make more items and balance them? You're rather pessimistic.

EDIT: I mean it's like saying let's remove item 3087 , item 3046 and item 3085 ,but leave item 3094 ,so we dont have power creep. Or removing item 3302 and item 3303 lines and leave item 3301 ,so all of them have the same amount of gold without regard for their unique playstyles.

Making items that suite more playstyles is something that should be done for more diversity and over-all fun.

chipndip12 votes

  1. Stfu about "items that fit more playstyles to make the game fun". For my role, everyone wants the exact OPPOSITE of that. I don't want to hear it.

  2. Difference: If you put 80 - 100 ap on each one, why would you get most anything else? Crit/AS isn't exactly the primary stat of marksmen. Kinda is, but AD is seriously important to them, so even if they have multiple crit items, they still need to split their build with AD items. For a mage, AP is *the primary stat by a long shot. Having multiple items with a ton of ap makes the final decision extremely easy.

PokladnicaZla6 votes

{quoted}

  1. Stfu about "items that fit more playstyles to make the game fun". For my role, everyone wants the exact OPPOSITE of that. I don't want to hear it.

  2. Difference: If you put 80 - 100 ap on each one, why would you get most anything else? Crit/AS isn't exactly the primary stat of marksmen. Kinda is, but AD is seriously important to them, so even if they have multiple crit items, they still need to split their build with AD items. For a mage, AP is *the primary stat by a long shot. Having multiple items with a ton of ap makes the final decision extremely easy.

  1. First of ,You could be nicer. This is just a discussion,not a fight. Why would not want more items to choose from?

  2. If AP is the primary stat for all mages.Why are their first items mostly the ones that manage their resources? If highest AP is the best solution.Why don't all mages rush item 3089 ? It gives the highest AP any single item could give and yet it's bought in the last 3 items mages build.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

  1. First of ,You could be nicer. This is just a discussion,not a fight. Why would not want more items to choose from?

You'd be surprised.

  1. If AP is the primary stat for all mages.Why are their first items mostly the ones that manage their resources? If highest AP is the best solution.Why don't all mages rush item 3089 ? It gives the highest AP any single item could give and yet it's bought in the last 3 items mages build.

It's not an "if". It IS the primary stat of all mages. That's obvious enough. The reason why they get items that manage resources is so they can manage their skills while stacking as much ap as they can. If you make it insanely easy for mages to get their primary stat while still covering their need for secondary stats, they'll just have a shit ton of AP + whatever on those items with no significant drawbacks, and those items become the best items for mages.

Remember when Rylai's was op? It had 100 AP and a decently strong slowing effect. 100 AP on top of secondary needs makes that item high in demand for mages because AP means they 1 shot easier. Mana is like, the next best stat for a mage because it gives them longer up-time before backing. You can't make it that easy to come across without drawbacks somewhere in the mage build.

PokladnicaZla4 votes

{quoted}

You'd be surprised.

It's not an "if". It IS the primary stat of all mages. That's obvious enough. The reason why they get items that manage resources is so they can manage their skills while stacking as much ap as they can. If you make it insanely easy for mages to get their primary stat while still covering their need for secondary stats, they'll just have a shit ton of AP + whatever on those items with no significant drawbacks, and those items become the best items for mages.

Remember when Rylai's was op? It had 100 AP and a decently strong slowing effect. 100 AP on top of secondary needs makes that item high in demand for mages because AP means they 1 shot easier. Mana is like, the next best stat for a mage because it gives them longer up-time before backing. You can't make it that easy to come across without drawbacks somewhere in the mage build.

Why don't we just remove item 3027 and item 3070 -line ,so every mage or AP champ can could item 3165 ? I mean can you imagine Swain with Morello's?

It's the main stat intendet for mages,but if you play a mage you need to buy other stats as well ( CDR,Mana,penetration flat and %).

On the real note. If you actually looked at my suggestions with an open mind( objecitve) instead of subjective you would have seen I'm actually doing the opposite of what your saying.

1)You said I'm giving mages too much AP for their resource item? Current Morello's give 100 AP. 2 of the items I proposed give 85 ( 15 less then the current Morello's) I didn't ship shit loads of AP onto the ˝mana items˝ .On the contrary.I reduced it.

  1. Secondary stats vs Primary stats Current Morello's gives 400 mana and 20% CDR and 100%. I reduced BOTH the mana amount and 20% CDR. Now only one item gives 400 and 20% CDR,the other give 350 mana and 10%

Over all,the stats have been nerfed,but the items have been made cheeper.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Yes but the mana reset passive would be (or is) unique, so even if they build all 4 of them, they only get 20% not 80% (that would be interesting though).

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

I like how you are rewarding aggression with your items. The %mana refund on kill or assist is going to be huge for champions like kassadin or anivia. I do think they're a bit on the op side, especially the first two. Tuning down the ap would be good enough. The items would be a must buy on champions that deal repetitive magic damage, which is ok in my opinion since ad champs have black cleaver.

Guys I want to know what people think of this and this seems like a good place to ask since you're already discussing mana itemization. I understand the connection between mana and cdr, but I think that there aren't enough ways to get one without the other for supports. Do you agree or not?

Sorry about piggybacking off of your thread op.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Um, item 3802 already refunds 20% mana on kills and assist. That's how it currently works. XD

Compared to live Morello's;

  1. 2 items have 85 ,while it has 100 AP . Only one gives 100 AP
  2. 2 had their CDR cut to 10% from 20% .Only one has 20%
  3. 2 give 350 mana compared to Morello's 400 ,while one gives 450

RIOT made mana the primary resource management on mages,while mana regeneration is meant for support. Personally,I wouldn't if mages had a bit of mana regen.options and if support had a few mana items(which they do). item 3050 is a support item that gives cdr and mana,but the passive should be an active IMO,since it's pretty hard to use.Might just be me . item 3110 is a really situational item that gives cdr and mana. The we have item 3060 which isn't really something to buy.Myb if it had a special interaction with wards? Like maybe making a ward undamagable,but the ward is visible to the enemy? IDK really

NP.Thanks for the feedback :D

SnakDatSmilesBak3 votes

Oh whoops I haven't played mid in a LONG time, thanks for correcting me lol.

The special ward thing is pretty interesting. It'll definitely change the dynamic of games.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

{quoted}

Oh whoops I haven't played mid in a LONG time, thanks for correcting me lol.

The special ward thing is pretty interesting. It'll definitely change the dynamic of games.

Overall, item 3060 really needs to be addressed.They're kinda shifting it's identity back and forth with every season. Wish ,they would leave the minions active and do something supports actually want.

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

A lot of supports don't have a way to push lanes. Banner gives them a way to do it. As a support yorick otp I understand the value of pushing as a support and therefore I like the item.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

{quoted}

A lot of supports don't have a way to push lanes. Banner gives them a way to do it. As a support yorick otp I understand the value of pushing as a support and therefore I like the item.

Yeah,but on the other hand as a support I never really bothered with pushing power.I mean that would be one of the last items I would consider buying.

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

I believe pressure is a viable way to support so i think the item does it's job. It forces an ad champ to go and clean up the pushing wave which lets your team get a 4v5 if you know what you're doing.

PokladnicaZla2 votes

I guess we just disagree on this matter.

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