Give us an Update of what's coming this Mid Season, don't leave us in the shadows.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.

One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:

1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.
2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.
3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.
4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

Im curious as to what you guys think about fleet footwork. In my opinion it needs to be removed because adcs should have to buy lifesteal if they want sustain.

Sounds good so far I´d love it if you made the Jungle harder so you need knowledge, jungle items, smite buffs and a champion that can survive the harsh conditions(Olaf,WW,Udyr,Fiddlesticks) and not champs like twitch in there. Rework the AP jungle item as well.

3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.

Then look at passive gold generation. Passive gold has the effect of lowering the difference between fed and behind characters relative to one another. This is another example of a change from 5.22 that has been haunting the game for years now.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.

Will there be an AD + ASPD item added (that isn't Trinity or Rageblade)? Overall, I enjoy the feel of building attack speed early, but it's just so overshadowed by the urgency for AD and crit.

3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.

If mages are more correct than the other three, that can mean nothing but nerfing the other three. Why?

1. Mages do not have transitive damage/durability mechanics (with the exception of Vlad). They have no super-high AP items that heal for 15-20% of damage, any skills that heal or shield for a % of max health, or any damage scalings based on caster's hp or resists.

2. When mages snowball, they still don't have access to multiplicative damage modifiers (crit, attack speed, Trinity, Sterak's) or base stats that benefit from those modifiers (base AD); DCap multiplies AP, but total damage is still additive.

3. When mages snowball, they usually aren't burning turrets as a result.

4. When mages snowball, they are usually balanced by skill shots, low mobility, low durability, and delays/cast times. A fed Morg does a ton of damage, but she has layers of counterplay. Compare that to a fed Vi, Jhin, Nocturne, J4, Trynd, etc.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

Are you reworking crit mechanics or at least lowering crit damage %?

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

make me dream, tell me what are the goals

Ashe player here with nearly one million mastery chiming in. I find that the most fun and skill expressive way for me me to play ADC is with high attack speed. Most people can kite out four autos at 1.5 to 1.75 attack speed and just nuke people with crits four times. But for me, the most rewarding plays are the ones where I have 2.3 or more (because I use Tempo) attack speed and the game narrows down to me and my raw mechanics. Making ADCs need more autos for less damage makes the mechanical nature of the class shine more as you need to perform more commands to get your damage out. A very extreme but sometimes realistic comparison would be this. Is it more mechanically difficult to use fourth shot on Rageblade Jhin to pop someone with his 1300 AD plus crit, or kite out an enemy playing Sivir through her spell shield and move speed boost to keep distance while you throw out auto after autos and weave in spells/animation resets.

The idea of giving marksmen more move speed and attack speed for less raw damage sounds like a great solution, as it makes damage more spread out, and increases the mechanical demand. Four autos of 250 damage a piece and 10 autos of 100 damage a piece, but for a DPS class the latter would be better as you should need to do DPS, not just get the one crit for 400+ damage.

I know your job is hard but I have faith in you guys and no matter what I'm gonna hit one million mastery. Can't wait to see what fruits your labor produces.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.

One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:

1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.
2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.
3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.
4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

Please consider reworking crit. It enables ranged DPS characters to have front-loaded burst damage that hurts squishies worse than it hurts tanks.

I'm liking the direction you've outlined here regarding Marksmen. I just think there's one thing missing, so I'll also drop this comment of mine from one of Meddler's Quick Gameplay Thoughts since you're talking about Marksman item adjustments/reworks.

To summarize it, critical strike chance continues to be an issue regarding Marksmen power curves (weak/unreliable early, too powerful/consistent late). It would be nice if the issue was finally addressed in earnest.

There are a number of examples with Marksmen playing around in the critical strike space (Ashe unique crit on slowed targets, Jhin fourth shot, etc.) that do not rely on % chance to provide high/low moments for Marksman power. I'd love to see critical strike focused around kits like the Jhin/Ashe examples, alongside perhaps mechanics like Energized (as mentioned in the linked comment).

Like you've noted, I think Marksmen should primarily be interested in attack speed and damage (any of AD, AP, on-hit depending on the champ design), with move speed as a secondary ask for positioning. I'll conclude this with one key quote from the linked comment:

Opening Marksman itemization away from crit chance reliance should help smooth their power curve, make them feel better early while not being so broken late, and open up the bot lane to other play styles (which may end up including non-Marksman champs) beyond "Can crit champs survive early game? If yes, go crit, else do whatever beats crit before they scale."

Thanks for your time! :)

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.

i feel like this isn't the best idea though

marksmen SHOULD feel weak in the early game. they have the easiest and most consistent form of damage to apply and are extremely important in taking objectives. they shouldn't get to be strong at all stages, and shouldn't have the level of raw cost efficiencty and item diversity they do now.

adc itemization is really broken, and shifting more towards a slow and continuous mid to late game ramp as opposed to the adrenaline rush that snowballs exponentially we've had for years now is the way to go. keeping adc itemization strong early will just maintain a lot of issues.

Can ADCs get some actual range instead of bursty abilities? It's been 5 years since the last ADC to break 550 range (Jinx), instead y'all have focusing on mobile bursty ability-based champions rather than the heart of the class, which is ranged auto-attackers.

While some burst-caster ADCs are always needed, it's become ridiculous how every new ADC must be a 525-range skirmisher more than an actual marksman

We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.

Music to my ears.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.

One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:

1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.
2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.
3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.
4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

You should be in charge of the balance team, you seem reasonable enough.

Meddler is delusional.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.

One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:

1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.
2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.
3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.
4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

Hey this sounds like some... surprisingly good news, if they get implemented like you told us of course.

Though I'm kind of worried with the part where you mentioned other classes that use these crit items. Well "classes" more like other champions.

+ of course your occasional crit Aatrox or Xin or whatever.

I think these guys could easily be balanced around the philosophy of:

Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

Since these champions are just Marksmen but meele in that sense. What I'm worried about are these champs.

Zed doesn't go full crit but he likes to build the occasional IE. These guys do exactly with crit (IE) what you want them not to do.

If you reduce the burst damage of crit builds then GP basically is getting a huge nerf because he relies on one barrel nigh killing the opponent late game. If that doesn't happen then the enemy will just retaliate and kill GP.

The late game of GP was never really a problem since his barrels have a lot of counterplay to them but with this change, glascannon GP would become so much worse.

I just hope that you don't brush it off as: "Well GP just has to go Bruiser/Tanky now I guess" "Well Yasuo just has to build a little more tanky now" "IE on Zed is now not a thing anymore I guess"

Because glascannon GP is a really fun playstyle and I don't want to replace it with some build.

Just looking at it feels boring.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.

One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:

1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.
2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.
3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.
4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

Why not rework crit as a whole rather than some crit items? Make it scale with enemy HP (or even armor) so it's not bursting squishies, forcing to choose between lethality (burst squishies), Crit (counter HP stacking) or mix both but be less efficient at each.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=yrc23zHg,discussion-id=27mrj62T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-04-17T19:31:08.573+0000)

Sure. Gonna talk more problem statement stuff than exact details but those'll be coming in the next couple weeks.

One thing to note is that we're doing less of a giant midseason release this year. Changes will come over a couple of patches, and it'll be smaller scope - there's no Runes Reforged or Elemental Drakes in this one. The changes that are there are likely to be significant, though. Likely to see changes aimed directly at Marksmen on 8.10 or 8.11, possibly both depending when work is finished, and then possible (but definitely not guaranteed) Fighter work in a follow-up patch.

We're looking at Marksmen with a few values:

1. The mere fact of getting to two items shouldn't guarantee they're the most valuable champion on a team, but getting ahead should matter a lot.
2. They need to be able to buy early items that ensure they can be fun, have responsive inputs (shoot-step-shoot is pretty unpleasant with no AS), and contribute appropriately. I take that to mean they need to get Attack Speed, potentially movement speed (though less required), and at least some punchy, powerful hits.
3. We're going to be looking for ways to play up the difference between a snowballing champion and one that's merely on the curve - that includes Fighters, Assassins, ADCs, and Mages (though we think Mages are actually more correct than the other three - if they're behind, they provide primarily utility, if they're ahead they can be great damage carries). We'll especially value any time we can hit multiple of these classes with shared items - e.g. items that help both Fighters and Marksmen, or Assassins and Marksmen.
4. Some opportunistic stuff - e.g. reducing the burst damage of very late game Infinity Edge builds to other squishy champions.

This will probably mean significant reworks to Infinity Edge, Essence Reaver, Last Whisper/Lord Dominik's Regards, cost changes to things like Phantom Dancer, possibly a new item, likely buffs to some underperforming items, plus some ADC base stat changes.

This literally makes no sense, ADC's are not the strongest champion on their team with 2 items, thats just absurd when it comes from a rioter, it sounds more like you have the same capabillity as Hashinshin, who lets be honest, is a player who fights 24/7 and is a complete coinflip player, if he is 0-10 and the enemy adc has twice his gold he will immidiatly say that: "AD CARRIES ARE BROKEN" "LOOK AT THIS 2 ITEMS" ADC's are however the strongest on their team with 3 and a half items (which they should be) and they are about even with the midlaner and toplaner in power when they have 3 items, and even if they have IE, Shiv, Rapidfire they still dont have that much burst, they just have alot of DPS, which is completly balanced since they still have to make an outplay to be more useful than the enemy toplaner or midlaner. Riot has been continuously nerfing AD Carries.

Over the past 2 years, what always happens is they nerf champions that are FUN to play like: Kalista, Lucian, Ezreal, and then champions like Tristana, Varus and Xayah become strong, since you nerf the champions who are meant to beat the outscaling ADCs in lane. a Tristana shouldn't be able to get out of the laning phase easily, and the only way to nerf that, without ruining the champion is to buff Kalista, Lucian, MF, Ezreal and other lane bully champions, so that they then have to be good to get out of the laning phase. Remember arcane comet meta? where MF, Jhin and Ezreal were the dominant ADCs? thats where scaling ADCs like Tristana was at her weakest point after the new runes, then you nerf comet, without giving buffs to lane bully ADCs, which then makes lane bully ADCs weak, which makes Tristana and others strong, and now you have hit scaling ADCs in the face with 7-8+ nerfs since comet meta and what has happened? NOTHING. Just reroll all the nerfs to scaling ADCs, buff Kalista, Lucian, Ezreal, MF, and buff comet, then you are going to be like "OH but comet midlane?" EXACTLY thats where you buff spellbook and electrecute and give midlaners more HP so they wont get 1 shot by assassins abusing the new electrecute. What happens now Riot Games? I'll tell you what happens, now midlaners will say: "screw comet, this new spellbook and electrecute is too good to not play" and now you have comet for botlaners.

now you are probably saying to yourself: "But now ADCs will just go electrecute" but NO. electrecute is 3 spells/AA attacks and trades in botlane is only 1 or 2 autos or spells so its really not that easy to proc, so whats gonna happen instead is that MF, Jhin is going to take comet, maybe Lucian will go for electrecute, then bully tristana, xayah, and other scaling adcs out of lane and BIM BADDABOOM ADCs will not be the strongest with 2 items (even though they arent) because Trist, Xayah and others will be behind in lane to champs like Lucian, Kalista, MF and those 3 champs that i just mentioned are not gonna be the strongest with 2 items, in fact they will get outscaled by Tristana and Xayah, which is FINE, because they are SCALING ADCs, and they should outSCALE EARLYgame ADCs who punish them in lane. Another thing that will happen with the comet buffs is that AP supports like Brand, Zyra and others will become strong with the lane bully ADCs and what happens then? SCALING ADCs now have an even harder time getting out of the laning phase, and now require a lot of skills to get out of the laning phase, now you are probably saying: "BUT MUH COMPETETIVE ENVIRONMENT" Great! i am happy that you say that! because your viewercounts has been continously dropping over the past year because the only meta that you have had has been TANK toplaners who do NOTHING but farm till 30+ min. and group with their team. You have had TANK junglers AFK farming and placing a few wards here and there, and sometimes maybe even doing a gank when they have ult up, unless there of cause is a jungle camp up. Midlaners has been control makes ONLY, doing the same damn thing has toplaners.

F A R M. in the bottom lane you have forced us to play Tahm, Braum and other boring Melee supports, since scaling ADCs has been the strongest, so whats the point punishing them? Riot why do you think no one wants to watch your competetive streams anymore? and NO its not because of Fornite, because Fornite has only been a thing the past 3 months, your views dropping has been ongoing for 1+ year, maybe even more. The reason is because the only thing competetive teams does is ward up, and scale, if they try to force something or win their lane, they might get punished and who wants to get punished and loose? No one. I myself play in a competetive environment in the Danish league, where the viewer experience from my point of view has been at least as good, if not better than the LCS, simply because they games are more fun to watch, the quality of the danish league is pretty bad, but again its an amateur league, and the people in control do not have the resources like Riot does when it comes to setting up a good stream with a studio, insane computers and an overall nice production. So if you want more people to watch your games, then stop making it games which HAS to be between 30 and 40 min, because it suits your schedule. Make it what it used to be. More Entertaining games which maybe lasted 20 min, or maybe lasted 50 min. but every single minute of those games were alot more exciting than watching the games you have now.