Lee Sin's ultimate needs to have its initial 0.25 second stun changed to a root

darkdill··32 votes·14,936 views

Lee Sin's ultimate has a small 0.25 second stun effect that occurs before he actually kicks you. This adds a lot of invisible power to the ability because it means your enemy can't use self-shields or other similar self-preservation effects during that wind-up.

The original intent of the mini-stun was to prevent enemies from repositioning with Flash or other abilities before Lee Sin kicks his target. However, because Riot made it a stun, it has the aforementioned side effect of disallowing self-preservation effects from being used. Thus, Lee Sin ends up getting far more kills with his ultimate than he should because his enemy cannot use something to block or mitigate the damage. Granted, the very brief period before Lee Sin kicks you isn't much time to use a defensive ability, but for people who are trying to be reactionary, being unable to block/mitigate is extremely frustrating.

To that end, I would like to recommend that Lee Sin's ultimate have its initial stun changed into a root effect. This would prevent movement abilities like summoner 4, but would not prevent things like item 3040. This preserves the original intent of not letting an enemy reposition before the kick, but would allow you to potentially save yourself from the burst damage. Given Lee Sin's already strong mechanics, I doubt this would affect his winrate all that much (and if it did, he could be given compensation buffs).

20 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar14 votes

I think this would potentially affect his win-rate quite a bit, but I still think it would be a good change.

Potentially, adding a bit more execute damage would bring it out to be balanced again. Not sure that's the right direction, but it could be, if the intent is for him to mitigate some of the self-preservation mechanics that you mention.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Approved!

Hibeki1 votes

Pretty sure you can heal and barrier while stunned? I could be wrong but i have vivid memory of doing so

darkdill1 votes

Either way, the mini-stun would still prevent stuff like Karma self-shielding and the like.

Hibeki3 votes

Or instead of this bandaid fix we could tackle the problem directly, its the SLOWEST moving knockback in the game with a microstun on both ends. Speed up the knockback and remove the end stun. Problem solved.

Galiö1 votes

Sin has a self lock out from doing anything for a short amount of time though. The delay is there so he can Q after R.

If u speed up the knockback he would need a lot more work than the initial stun to root case being made here.

Hibeki1 votes

Its not a self lockout, the entire combo is R flash and you can Q immediately after if needed.

Galiö1 votes

Sin locks himself out of casts and movement for .25 seconds after using R.

Hibeki1 votes

Its not a lockout if he can still flash.

Also thats a seriously small price to play for frankly an overpowered ability

Z3Sleeper3 votes

I’d rather him get compensation buffed and lose the RQQ combo. To me it’s just plain braindead especially for the posterboy “high-skill” jungler.

RQQ should never have been a combo. QRQ is the way the combo should be executed if they want it “guaranteed”.

So yeah, speed up the knockback and remove the silly tacked on stuns.

LatetotheRace1 votes

I feel like Leesin is the original Alistar, has a "cool" combo, but it's no longer cool or skilled when it's mechanically free to accomplish. (Note the Alistar rework to where you can buffer the knockupback into the knockup.)

I rake beat you1 votes

Honestly, I am fine with it the way it is. It is literally a quarter of a second stun. That is such a small duration that you're computer can just barely even receive the command that fast, and that is not even counting on if you can put in the command that quickly. Leave as is, that is my opinion.

LatetotheRace1 votes

If you have played against a Lee sin more than 1000 times, You can easily anticipate the ability activation.

Bans Are Unfair1 votes

Yes nerf lee sin, the guy who has been nerfed into the ground and is a joke now. I find a lee sin on the enemy team and I laugh because I know I'm going to win unless it's a challenger smurf. Even my silver/gold friends can beat a diamond lee sin, regardless of his playmaking abilities.

Gilgayu4 votes

Lee isn't the solo carry he once was. He is more like TF, who make sick plays but depends on their team to complete the engage. Lee can still 1v1 squshies, and his clear is also decent. He is more like a brusier rather than an assassin, so even if it is a diamond lee, they need a good team

Z3Sleeper10 votes

“Don’t fix broken mechanics/interactions/abilities/etc. if they are attached to low winrate champions.”

This ideology needs to be neutered.

Bears Dont Care4 votes

{quoted}

“Don’t fix broken mechanics/interactions/abilities/etc. if they are attached to low winrate champions.”

This ideology needs to be neutered.

He appears low win rate but he has the highest pick rate of all jungler iirc. Clearly there is a reason for it.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Or we should just get rid of it... I mean if he can flash buffer that crap, then I should be able to counter flash?

LatetotheRace1 votes

Better yet, let's ad the ability to QSS it during the initial stun to cancel the upcoming knockback as well. This would do nothing against tanks (which are already powerful to knock back into their teams) while giving very skilled players some outplay while playing assassins.

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