So... you are nerfing Tanks and bruisers.

Bârd·Nov 24, 2015·136 votes·4,132 views

Yeah. The tanks being too strong is CLEARLY the problem.

Totally isn't that mages are being overshadowed by marksmen, allowing tanks to spec fully into armor.

No way is it that.

85 Comments

CrettNov 24, 201534 votes

even 600 armor tanks melt pretty quickly later anyways

EDIT: I made a big WHINY post about it here http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2OeQ1TXe-i-wish-this-games-entire-dynamic-was-different-and-more-focused-on-tanks-aaa-long-post

Hayaishi2Nov 24, 20159 votes

{quoted}

even 600 armor tanks melt pretty quickly later anyways

Because you're not meant to go 600 armor against new Last Whisper.

Tanks are better than before if you stop trying to stack every armor item and their mother because new Last Whisper doesn't do shit if you don't have a fuck ton of armor.

CrettNov 25, 20152 votes

Last Whisper can counter HP too now! item 3036 ADCs have an answer for everything

MelledoneusNov 26, 20151 votes

Fiora doesn't care what you build. She will delete you.

DragonSheaNov 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fiora doesn't care what you build. She will delete you.

Small amounts True %damage is ok, I haven't fought a lot so I can't really judge her. But she sounds like a melee Vayne.

MelledoneusNov 26, 20151 votes

If you ever do, make sure to have your carries focus her and keep her away. The only champion in the League that can duel her mid-late game is Olaf. You can build armor, you can build HP, you can build attack speed slows... it doesn't matter. Once Fiora jumps on you, you're dead.

DragonSheaNov 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you ever do, make sure to have your carries focus her and keep her away. The only champion in the League that can duel her mid-late game is Olaf. You can build armor, you can build HP, you can build attack speed slows... it doesn't matter. Once Fiora jumps on you, you're dead.

Yeah her true damage should be converted from a percentage of her AD when she hits you or something. Losing that much Hp is just unreal.

MelledoneusNov 26, 20151 votes

Her true damage is based on her bonus AD, so yeah. Not to mention that item 3812 reduces the need for durability because every auto allows her to heal for half her HP.

GundayMondayNov 24, 201510 votes

Yeah, I feel like you can't build straight tank anymore. You're just going to melt, so tanks are turning into bruisers.

DragonSheaNov 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

even 600 armor tanks melt pretty quickly later anyways

Cuz of vayne. Hate that bitch.

AnidanNov 25, 20153 votes

For.. doing her designated job as a tank-buster?

RainbowIceeNov 25, 20151 votes

she's pretty much viable to fight anything but a fed assassin.

AnidanNov 25, 20151 votes

He was referring specifically to tanks, and complained about Vayne. Vayne was made specifically to bust tanks better than any other ADC, barring maybe a very late Kog'maw with the right build. Complaining about her in that context just means she's doing her job as intended. Tanks aren't supposed to be impenetrable walls late-game to Vayne like they might be to Corki or Ezreal; she's outright designed to rip through them.

HawkefireNov 25, 20152 votes

Honestly my issue with Vayne isn't the fact that she demolishes bruisers and tanks (which tbh should be her niche), it is the fact that she also demolishes:

A) Duelists, of every variety B) Assassins (in fact, she is largely considered a pretty damn huge counter to most assassins, or as close to it as can be as an ADC anyway) C) Medium ranged Mages D) Short ranged mages E) Nearly every other ADC in the game

Pretty much the only thing she struggles against are long ranged mages, and even then she has plenty of tools to circumvent and deal with them as well.

DragonSheaNov 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

For.. doing her designated job as a tank-buster?

Sadly true. I really don't know what counter she does have.

MelledoneusNov 26, 20151 votes

Vayne is very fragile and if caught out, she ironically has very little tools to escape. If peeled for accordingly and if she gets her damage off, she can be devastating. But she can only focus one target at a time.

falldown010Nov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

even 600 armor tanks melt pretty quickly later anyways

no kidding huh a sion full tanky want against a caitlyn and a braum, needless to say sion got killed in mere seconds, its like cutting paper

CrettNov 25, 20151 votes

ADCs get multiplicative scaling and they get to apply it over and over again indefinitely Tanks just have a static HP bar they can linearly increase and they can only hope it's enough; but it's really not right now

It SORTA makes sense that it's like this, but I feel there's a way to fit in actually durable tanks without destroying game balance.

Almost every time tanks were meta it wasn't because they were durable; it was because they were doing absurd damage I really don't like to see a meta where the only real defense a tank has against a carry is their own damage

DragonSheaNov 24, 201531 votes

Well Riot loves Glass Cannons too much.

RivvyNov 24, 201543 votes

{quoted}

Well Riot loves LC$BIGPLAY$ too much.

TikailNov 24, 20154 votes

At this point whenever I think about balance, I just look at Lux's ult and think about the amount of time, resources, and money that Riot must have sunk into it compared to any other in-game asset and that typically realigns my priorities.

Subject 5Nov 24, 201516 votes

{quoted}

At this point whenever I think about balance, I just look at Lux's ult and think about the amount of time, resources, and money that Riot must have sunk into it compared to any other in-game asset and that typically realigns my priorities.

This gave me cancer.

Over InnsmouthNov 24, 20153 votes

Could someone enlighten me as to what's up with Lux ult?

LordGeovanniNov 25, 20153 votes

38 second real ultimate not pesudo ultimate like alikai's that activates luxs passive and both have high as shit scaleing. granted you have to build cdr to get it that low but thats mages build path anyway

Psi21Nov 24, 20155 votes

You couldn't be more wrong.

Glass cannons are mages. Not the HP regening fiends you call ADC.

Some players are so detached from the game they think the Tankie DPS meta was okay. Folks we had tanks doing more damage than ADC in some cases and we had tanks being more practical junglers.

Team fights consisted of highschool and mid school kids butting heads rather than smart plays.

DragonSheaNov 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You couldn't be more wrong.

Glass cannons are mages. Not the HP regening fiends you call ADC.

Some players are so detached from the game they think the Tankie DPS meta was okay. Folks we had tanks doing more damage than ADC in some cases and we had tanks being more practical junglers.

Team fights consisted of highschool and mid school kids butting heads rather than smart plays.

Look A Glass Cannon is a character that deals a high amount of damage but are frail and can't take a lot of damage themselves. ADC are by default glass cannons. A carry is a champion that carries I.e leads the team and it's the most powerful, skill or feed champion in a match and people always make Marksman carries hence why they are ADC as they also deal physical damage in most cases.

I agree that tanks shouldn't be dealing as much damage as an MM, fighter or Mage. Juggernauts are kinda a tricky subject as they have a lot of damage and defences but that should be compensated with low mobility. If a Tank like Shen, Rammus or Malphite does insane damage something which the R man can actually pull off with the right items without compromise of tankiness. there needs to be a counterbalance to it and so what if they did so them being OP was not because of an active effort by riot to promote tanks as Juggs and MM have gotten there rework and Rammus and Malphite have gotten a resurgence in use as they are the natural counter to the MM's

Riot when and said Hey let's buff the shit out of the MM while we rework them. Next thing they are quoting Rengar's last line in Gnars backstory. cuz a Malphite is saying to a cluster of enemy champs: "can't stop the rock" and Rammus Roll all over the enemy team shouting "RESPECT THE RAMMUS BITCH!"

Either way, long story short: I doubt you understand what a Glass cannon is and while you have a point I think you got some tank bias.

SoMNiaNov 25, 20152 votes

Um, no, glass cannons are fragile burst damage champions. LeBlanc is a glass cannon. ADC's are DPS champions. There is a huge difference.

DragonSheaNov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Um, no, glass cannons are fragile burst damage champions. LeBlanc is a glass cannon. ADC's are DPS champions. There is a huge difference.

How is that a difference? Most MM are frail and hence they are called glass cannon, A Dps champ is a champ that deals a lot of damage, either by burst or sustain. MM,Mages,Assassins and fighters( and Juggernauts) are Dps's. And a Glass cannon is a champ deals a lot of damage regardless of method. Besides, I think that the term ADC is very misleading because anyone with a lot of physical damage and become one. That is why refer ADC as MM because that is what the majority of them are and along with Ezreal and Corki who deal a lot of MD. it's very inaccurate. Also A carry is a in my own Opinion a champ that the most dangerous member of a team during a match and has the most impact, it doesn't have to be through extreme damage.

SoMNiaNov 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

a Glass cannon is a champ deals a lot of damage regardless of method

No. A glass cannon needs to deal enough damage to make an impact very quickly (that is, almost instantly), hence the "cannon" part of the moniker. A glass cannon by definition is fragile and does great burst damage. An ADC is fragile and does not do great burst damage, hence the need to be protected while they fight, rather than showing up and instantly having an impact. An ADC is not a glass cannon. An assassin or burst mage is a glass cannon. Assassins are not DPS; they are burst. Most mages are burst, but some (e.g. Cassiopeia) are DPS.

To be honest, I dislike the term "carry" anyway, because it makes people self-important rather than acknowledging they have a job to do within the framework of an overall team effort. But I don't refer to ADC's as marksmen because not all of them are marksmen. Yasuo and Yi, for example, have reliable access to targets and do reliable physical DPS, so they are ADC's, but they are not marksmen. For another example, Darius has a lot of physical damage, but does not have reliable access to targets and cannot deal damage reliably, instead gaining the ability to threaten an area of the map rather than a specific champion. So he is not an ADC, but a fighter or juggernaut. Finally, Zed has a lot of physical damage, but he deals it in short bursts, after which he must wait for cooldowns and cannot deal much damage for a time. Zed is therefore not an ADC, but an assassin. I hope this shows that an ADC is not simply "anyone with a lot of physical damage". An ADC must deal physical damage reliably over time, not in bursts, and not as an immobile melee champion.

So, to sum up, glass cannons: LeBlanc, Zed, Katarina, Brand, Vel'Koz, Annie. Not glass cannons: Jinx, Vayne, Sivir, Ashe, Kalista, Caitlyn, Miss Fortune.

DragonSheaNov 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No. A glass cannon needs to deal enough damage to make an impact very quickly (that is, almost instantly), hence the "cannon" part of the moniker. A glass cannon by definition is fragile and does great burst damage. An ADC is fragile and does not do great burst damage, hence the need to be protected while they fight, rather than showing up and instantly having an impact. An ADC is not a glass cannon. An assassin or burst mage is a glass cannon. Assassins are not DPS; they are burst. Most mages are burst, but some (e.g. Cassiopeia) are DPS.

To be honest, I dislike the term "carry" anyway, because it makes people self-important rather than acknowledging they have a job to do within the framework of an overall team effort. But I don't refer to ADC's as marksmen because not all of them are marksmen. Yasuo and Yi, for example, have reliable access to targets and do reliable physical DPS, so they are ADC's, but they are not marksmen. For another example, Darius has a lot of physical damage, but does not have reliable access to targets and cannot deal damage reliably, instead gaining the ability to threaten an area of the map rather than a specific champion. So he is not an ADC, but a fighter or juggernaut. Finally, Zed has a lot of physical damage, but he deals it in short bursts, after which he must wait for cooldowns and cannot deal much damage for a time. Zed is therefore not an ADC, but an assassin. I hope this shows that an ADC is not simply "anyone with a lot of physical damage". An ADC must deal physical damage reliably over time, not in bursts, and not as an immobile melee champion.

So, to sum up, glass cannons: LeBlanc, Zed, Katarina, Brand, Vel'Koz, Annie. Not glass cannons: Jinx, Vayne, Sivir, Ashe, Kalista, Caitlyn, Miss Fortune.

Fair enough. I generally refer anyone that deals a lot of damage and can't take a lot as glass cannon but I see your point. The reason I bump both I Burst and sustain damage dealers as GC is because it's the only word I can i think of that describes them this line taken from http://english.stackexchange.com pretty much somes up what I think of the term:

Link: http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/85206/is-glass-cannon-a-generally-recognized-phrase

"Glass cannon" is a popular term in gaming (especially online-gaming), where it refers to a character class that has remarkable offensive power, but has low defense. Urban Dictionary also defines this as:

Refers to a person, weapon, or vehicle which has a high output, but a low defense, life, durability, etc.

However I think that Glass cannons are categorized into two groups: Burst and Sustain. I think that Leagues rule of Mage=Burst and ADC(or Marksman as they should be called)= Sustain has screwed the definition of the term and want what to think of it in league. Also I don't really know of any sustain mages in Lol as my main forte is Tanks, FIghters and Supports if you or anyone else can tell me I'd be happy to know.

Anyway one the subject of roles, Assassins are melees with a lot of damage and they need to bursty by default because MM's have the range to allow them to get away with dealing sustained damage if they are one due to frailty. A sustain assassin is doom to be a failure, which is the reason fighters and Juggernauts exist as they have the durability to deal damage over time effectively and can survive a screw up that would kill an Squishy.

SoMNiaNov 26, 20151 votes

I see. I suppose that here, "sustain" is not replenishing resources like health and mana, but rather "sustained damage", which equates to DPS. To my knowledge, the foremost example of a sustained damage or DPS mage is Cassiopeia. Ryze may also qualify, while his innate ability is active.

Assassins do tend to be melee, yes, and thus their survivability is lower than that of MM types, and they need burst because they can't afford to stay in attack range for long. Sustained damage "assassins" do exist, with "assassin" being a secondary role and their primary being fighter, usually. Examples are Jax, Irelia, Master Yi, Xin Zhao, and Yasuo, whom I have also seen termed "diving fighters", as they don't quite fit the usual expectations of an assassin (they lack a reliable escape, and they usually build resistances).

DragonSheaNov 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I see. I suppose that here, "sustain" is not replenishing resources like health and mana, but rather "sustained damage", which equates to DPS. To my knowledge, the foremost example of a sustained damage or DPS mage is Cassiopeia. Ryze may also qualify, while his innate ability is active.

Assassins do tend to be melee, yes, and thus their survivability is lower than that of MM types, and they need burst because they can't afford to stay in attack range for long. Sustained damage "assassins" do exist, with "assassin" being a secondary role and their primary being fighter, usually. Examples are Jax, Irelia, Master Yi, Xin Zhao, and Yasuo, whom I have also seen termed "diving fighters", as they don't quite fit the usual expectations of an assassin (they lack a reliable escape, and they usually build resistances).

Hmm that makes sense as they are more or less able to duel but in teamfights or when jumped on they don't really have a chance to leave a dent on the enemy's hp before dying.

alasarcherNov 24, 201511 votes

How are mages overshadowed when highest winrate champions are Anivia, Brand and Malzahar. Only Marksman in top 30 winrate is Miss Fortune. And there is also Swain, TF, Ahri, Lux and Kayle. All Marksmen(women) except Miss Fortune are arround and bellow 50% winrate.

Slamurai JackNov 24, 201519 votes

The circlejerk says that Mages got gutted and are now garbage. Do not attempt to question the circlejerk. Attempting to go against the circlejerk may lead to: a heavy influx of downvotes, a loss of faith in humanity, minor brain damage, and light bruises on the forehead due to repeated facepalming.

Psi21Nov 24, 20153 votes

You know who else yell circle-jerk when the rest of the world disagrees with their ignorant backward mindset? Republicans.

Slamurai JackNov 24, 20154 votes

I'm pretty sure Republicans are the ones that constantly ignore data in a desperate attempt to preserve their worldview. Considering how well mages are doing right now statistically, that would make you the Republican, not me. I'm just following the data. And the data says that mages as a whole are doing really well right now.

Psi21Nov 24, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zyqfNFL1,comment-id=0002000000020000,timestamp=2015-11-24T20:44:28.836+0000)

I'm pretty sure Republicans are the ones that constantly ignore data in a desperate attempt to preserve their worldview. Considering how well mages are doing right now statistically, that would make you the Republican, not me. I'm just following the data. And the data says that mages as a whole are doing really well right now.

Oh I didn't know Foxnews did League of Legends metrics and statistics.

SolitairNov 24, 201514 votes

don't neglect the fact that a hoarde of players rushed to try the reworks. That's going to sink the winrates some+ pickrates.

NekusenNov 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

How are mages overshadowed when highest winrate champions are Anivia, Brand and Malzahar. Only Marksman in top 30 winrate is Miss Fortune. And there is also Swain, TF, Ahri, Lux and Kayle. All Marksmen(women) except Miss Fortune are arround and bellow 50% winrate.

Anivia and are a problem of their own, they don't reflect the general status of mages.

alasarcherNov 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

and are a problem of their own, they don't reflect the general status of mages.

Which mages then? Morgana is good, Karma is strong, Lulu is strong, Annie is strong, Lux is amazing, Swain is strong, VIktor is strong.Veigar is strong. I dunno about Syndra, Ziggs, Orianna, Lissandra and Karthus,

VekknaNov 24, 20152 votes

Karthus Zilean Velkoz TwistedFate Chogath Ahri Malzahar are all over 52% win rate.

Zyra up 11 on the mid ladder Syndra up 13 on the mid ladder and is over 50% average WR for the first time since 4.21 Kassadin up 3 on the mid ladder despite a huge influx in new Kass players and an average games played of 26. His WR is 61% for players with 125+ Leblanc is also up to her highest win rate since the W speed nerf, despite now having the second-highest pick rate for mid

Diggy Hole DwarfNov 24, 20154 votes

Okay, you know why? Because logically speaking there is either a mage or an assassin on mid per team.

The nerf of assassins (yes, AD item changes is a BIG nerf to assassins) made it so that when there is an assassin mid he is less likely to win, giving win rate to the side of mages. And what if there is no assassin? Then there is a mage on each side, duh. So one is bound to win, leading to an average of 50% win rate.

So what these stats say is that right now mages are stronger than assassins, nothing more, nothing less! Thank you!