Face it.
He has become too mechanically intense to shove in the faces of players who are literally playing their second ever bot game.
Eventually, we should remove the whole "No level 1 skill point" and "Thornmail on Ashe" thing from the basic tutorial, but when you get around to that, this should also be taken care of.
THE RlVER KlNG51 votesAnnie: Passive: Stun every once in a while Q: Deal damage W: Deal damage in front of you E. Take less damage R. Deal damage in area, with a controllable minion for you to play with after.
Ryze is a whole 'nother beast entirely, with an expansive and deceptively deep list of combos only dedicated mains can keep straight most of the time, and an ult that screams 'not for new players to attempt.'
So take my upvote.
Velzard of Koz16 votesRyze: Passive: Build mana for casting sustain and to build damage. Build AP to have more mana than you actually build. Build mana again so that you build more mana as you built AP before which builds damage as If you were building Ap as you built it before. ...
Okay no need to continue, I upvote, too.
RiotMeddler47 votesWe likely will at some point. Doing so needs a bit of work to reconfigure some things that are set up in Battle Training for Ryze specifically however. At present the people who could do that work though are on other projects that we feel are more important (the new client in particular). Could be a good case for swapping Ryze out once that's out, though will still depend on what other work's also competing for time of course (it's not an enormous job, but there's lot of other similar sized stuff it'd be great to get done too).
Hige41 votesMeddler, I know you're not the head of the company and that what you're saying makes sense for how things are going on at Riot right now, but the truth is that the new player experience is quite bad and has been like that since forever... I think it's a good thing that this game is as engaging as it is because any other game wouldn't see much growth if they had the current set up for new players that league has.
What I'm trying to say is that it SHOULD be a priority, not swapping ryze for annie but to revise and design a new tutorial and to carefully balance the matchmaking experience for new players who are constantly facing bots (which I know you're taking legal actions against), smurfs and sudden toxicity because they have a hard time discerning why Ashe shouldn't wear a thornmail...
I think that the early days of a new player should be plagued with information about the game, which the alpha client excels at and you have factions ready to be exposed, the background is there, I think, all you guys need to do is gather a team and start working on this asap.
Kei1432 votesInside one of ghost crawler's Monthly Q&A on twitch, they found out that most people are not fixated on things that are being taught on the tutorials.
Meaning that the new players are smart enough to not buy thornmail on ashe.
They also want to cater to 90% of the older population first before the 10% new.
LostFr0st3 votesThere's no point making one before the new client is done. Gotta have a foundation before you build.
Warlord Zudane2 votesI didn't mind the tutorial. But I like to go in prepared and not just blindly jump in. Had one hell of a time with that with LoL just because everything on the site was very very limited and outdated (It's updated now and looks a lot better, good job!) and the tutorial left a lot to be desired.
New player experience should be equally important to professional. Sure you want to balance for pros, but we can't ignore the new players or the game gets stagnant and dies.
Fondling Gems3 votesI feel like a mentor system should be introduced too. I personally would love to help new players learn the game. Hell, that is what half my smurfs are for. I go into games and try to help new players learn the fundamentals. I purposefully don't try hard on those accounts so that I can continue to be matched with people still learning the game.
It would just be great if we as more experienced players had an easy way to help new players out.
Zedex1 votesThis wasn't planned for while you were reworking him into a much more complex champion then he has been ? Wtf? Was the tutorial forgotten about?
A Simple Desire23 votesI don't get why Riot didn't add a tutorial specifically on last hitting. Last hitting is such an important thing in League you'd think they would add it. Whenever I'm leveling a smurf I always see players below 20-30 cs at the 10 minute mark while I'm generally sitting at 80+. It's pretty sad how they neglected it. Also item paths. They have the same items everytime for champs. It's in the recommended so of course new players will take those items. Why didn't they label certain build paths so newbies can follow that?
CasterGilgamesh3 votesthat could be interesting having specific scenarios where certain build paths work better not really big but deff distinct like maybe 
over another item or 
against a lot of tanks
Maiziea3 votesBecause it's simply incredibly hard for new players, I have a couple of friends who just started and I've explained to them so many times how the game works around gold and that your power comes from gold, and you get gold from minions/kills ect. They try to last hit in custom games with no presure but they just miss a lot, even on stuff like Annie using the Q to farm. It's just hard and something you slowly get use to over time, I don't think there's a reason to teach new players how to farm, it's better for them to learn after they have some experience with the game.
And about items, new players don't have time to read over all the items, they already spend the first 5-10 minutes trying to understand what their champion does by reading the abilities, if they also have to go over all the items they won't get to play the game and just lose because they're afk reading all of the tooltips.
League of legends is an incredibly hard game to learn, once you know something you will most likely remember it and it's something that feels completely normal to you, such as last hitting or knowing the abilities and items. But for a new player there is just waaaaaaay too much information to take in within their first 100+ games.
In my opinion you should just look at level through 1 to 30 as the real tutorial, and the tutorial is more of a trailer/preview.
VoraciousX2 votesBecause it's simply incredibly hard for new players, I have a couple of friends who just started and I've explained to them so many times how the game works around gold and that your power comes from gold, and you get gold from minions/kills ect. They try to last hit in custom games with no presure but they just miss a lot, even on stuff like Annie using the Q to farm. It's just hard and something you slowly get use to over time, I don't think there's a reason to teach new players how to farm, it's better for them to learn after they have some experience with the game.
And about items, new players don't have time to read over all the items, they already spend the first 5-10 minutes trying to understand what their champion does by reading the abilities, if they also have to go over all the items they won't get to play the game and just lose because they're afk reading all of the tooltips.
League of legends is an incredibly hard game to learn, once you know something you will most likely remember it and it's something that feels completely normal to you, such as last hitting or knowing the abilities and items. But for a new player there is just waaaaaaay too much information to take in within their first 100+ games.
In my opinion you should just look at level through 1 to 30 as the real tutorial, and the tutorial is more of a trailer/preview.
Learning how to get the only source of income in the game for items the most efficient way isn't too hard on new players. I mean yeah it's hard to CS(especially without runes and masteries) for them, but they should at least KNOW that it's important.
DeathBot6662 votesBecause then I don't have a reason not to ADC.
The Soulforged9 votes[{quoted}](name=A Simple Desire,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GMdRltrE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-12T21:21:43.347+0000)
I don't get why Riot didn't add a tutorial specifically on last hitting. Last hitting is such an important thing in League you'd think they would add it. Whenever I'm leveling a smurf I always see players below 20-30 cs at the 10 minute mark while I'm generally sitting at 80+. It's pretty sad how they neglected it. Also item paths. They have the same items everytime for champs. It's in the recommended so of course new players will take those items. Why didn't they label certain build paths so newbies can follow that?
I didn't know what last hitting was until I was lv 30.
General Esdeath 5 votes[{quoted}](name=The Soulforged,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GMdRltrE,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2016-08-13T02:06:45.732+0000)
I didn't know what last hitting was until I was lv 30.
I didn't know what last hitting (as a tactic) was until I was silver 1.
The Soulforged6 votesI didn't know what last hitting (as a tactic) was until I was silver 1.
I somehow ended up silver that season. I had no idea what the meta was, and I have fond memories of going Garen bot lane my first ranked match.
notice me Sin pi2 votesim pretty sure last hitting was on the tutorial. When I started playing LoL 11 months ago (and i was completely new to MOBA), I did last hitting since lv1 (or 2, i cant remember what lvl I was when i did my first game against bots). I am pretty sure I did so cuz tutorial mentioned it at least
Velzard of Koz5 votesThey should have just made campaign-like set of mini-games a player gets through. Each mini-game for something.
For example, one would be specifically for last-hitting, sending order of minions from left to right in front of you with decreasing life and you have to lasthit them. Once you manage to lasthit all of them in the order you win.
Then some adventure travel from one point to another where you fight monster camps in order to go from "town" to "town" where you can buy things. Items displayed would be the best ones for stats bind to your role. And this could be done in various mini-games with various map-themes (but basically the same shape) for various roles.
Then some siege and raid to know how to push and win and stuff.
President Swa1n3 votesLike the one in the original DotA (if you've ever played it)
Velzard of Koz2 votesNot sure. I didn't play DotA for WarCraft III much, just saw it. Then I jumped some time ago to play DotA (now game itself) where there were campaings, though:
President Swa1n1 votesYea the one I'm talking about is in the original DotA. It was this mini story-like tutorial which managed to incorporate all the basics into it as well.
Jabberwöcky2 votes
Are all easy to play/exciting to play champs that could work in the Tutorial imo.
LostFr0st4 votesI'm dying here XD
No way.
I think Pantheon's death sound would make most laugh to death since they'd ult into the enemy base turrets (or 5ft away, either one) while Karthus would teach them If I die I get to spam. Since Panth may get VGUd soon I know he won't get used though.
The button spam would be fun for them.
Jabberwöcky3 votesWell here let me go into detail for them.
: Ability based, High auto attack range, easy to use, simple abilities. Don't need to combo properly to get the basis down.
: She teaches being slow, ranged, AD based, Shows how some champs not only have abilities that not only damage, but also have utility.
: Now about Karthus, I believe they need to show a AD champ then an AP champ in the Tutorial to show two different sides. Karthus is a very unique mage, very noob friendly. Spam Q to farm, last hit, Use W to slow someone away from you, the E when someone dives on you, and if you see someone low, far away, Ult. And if you die, you can still do damage, that its "okay" to die, so some noobs dont get too stressed out, and even in death, you can still be rewarded if you play right.
: Just like annie, Damage abilities, a self AD buff, movespeed buff, and a heal, very basic from most MMOs to learn from.
: Melee based, ranged Spell, a stun, AoE damage, and a Teleport Ult, plus has a little "neat" passive to teach to noobs to get them into reading and learning unique abilities to watch out for.
: Honestly Xin and 
are probably the two easiest junglers in the game, so perhaps release a new Jungle Turt for them to play with, he has Self sustain, CC, and a Dive to show noobs what a sustain champ/duelist is all about.
: To teach noobs how to get freelo.
LostFr0st3 votesThanks, I'm sorry, but I'm still dying of laughter all the same XD Actually it's worse now with the memories of all the teammate Yi deaths I've heard.
Jabberwöcky2 votesits sort of a joke ;)
LostFr0st2 votesYeah I gotchu.
It's so formally written though so I have to take it somewhat seriously... then I read Zed's section....
Jabberwöcky2 votesthats why hes last xD
SwiftKitten886 votes
Are all easy to play/exciting to play champs that could work in the Tutorial imo.
i like how u included
AcidTheWarlock4 votesWhy ????
Sure, he's exciting and fun, but I doubt a new player could manage his crazy shadow micro
LostFr0st1 votesWhile I agree, I think Brand would make a better candidate than Annie. I think it'd be a little much to give them a minionmancer. Plus her passive takes some getting used to.
Dr Poro5 votesTibbers does a lot of the stuff himself, though, and brand is also not that straight forward (a lot of text in his abilities). Mages are just more complex by nature. It's like that in every game really, but Ryze is just a bit too much.
LostFr0st2 votesYou can do a ton right on Brand first game. Not optimal ofc, but you'll get good visual feedback from his abilities. The real base complicated thing on him imo is his Q stun and his low ms (so positioning is quite important). The rest they will learn from learning/caring for Brand if they like him.
Not so much Annie, and you'll get hella flamed for not using the stun or not holding the stun or charging the stun improperly or throwing non-stun Tibbers.
Forget Ryze lol.
4th3t0s4 votesthe problem with this is 
still has a considerable RP/IP cost while has been 450 IP for as long as I can remember; don't IP-block a champion new players got used to through the tutorial, then leave them with nothing to put that practice into.
LostFr0st1 votesIP cost isn't a good reason. The mage should be chosen to teach. They could just put him on the starter roster as well then. The one that new players get before the free rotation (that transition must be frustrating in and of itself). There's also nothing stopping Riot from making him the next champ that gets reduced two new champs from now with Diana. I've seen more than my share of new players buying stuff like Aatrox and Rengar just because they looked cool with no idea on their mechanics, so 4800 isn't actually that much when someone wants the champ.
4th3t0s2 votesThat might be true, but IP cost has generally reflected a higher skill floor; so there's that to consider
LostFr0st2 votesWut?[zombie-brand-mindblown] IP cost is directly reflective of a champion's age/release date, not skill floor. Most of the kits back then were simple because of the tech that they had and the starting League audience they were developing. A lot of those champs are getting updated, and as one can clearly see from Ryze and even Taric compared to how they used to be they are no longer 'simple' but have the same ip cost. Same for Poppy, Sion, GP, etc.
4th3t0s2 votesI said "generally," not in the a sense that it's the only factor. I know release date is the other reason, but don't try to tell me someone like Annie has the same skill floor as Taliyah, for example.
ClawMe1 votesPetition to not replace with Annie, how about Ahri instead. I don't need people learning how my main works Day 1.
Rock MD21 votesPetition to not replace with Annie, how about Ahri instead. I don't need people learning how my main works Day 1.
Or you could not be a selfish prick and they can give newbies a mindless champion to play so they have one less thing to worry about.
dominusx1 votesyou need to LEARN how to press D and R you learn that at 9 years old when you touch a computer for the 1st time on your own so i think everyone is fine playing your main
ClawMe1 votesyou need to LEARN how to press D and R you learn that at 9 years old when you touch a computer for the 1st time on your own so i think everyone is fine playing your main
Why are you so angry? Do you really have that hard of a time against an Annie? If you played her as much as I do then you would know you can't just Flash Ult anymore. But I can tell by you comment you tilt to quickly to be reasoned with.
Fondling Gems1 votesToo*
Sorry, couldn't resist.
