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So once a Vayne gets a lead...

InsaneSamurai··33 votes·2,828 views

It's perfectly reasonable for nobody to be able to do anything besides pray that they are bad or bring the entire team just to temporarily shut her down? (or Ekko, Leblanc, Kat, etc)

Once these champs get a lead, they're going to get gold faster than anyone on the map. Even the people on your team who were doing well can't compare to the snowball, and the strategy of that game almost entirely becomes focused on that one champ. One guy in a 5 man team becomes so important that everything you do has to be done around them. That doesn't sound like a team to me.

I know you inevitable downvoters like playing the game like it was team deathmatch, so you want this to be a thing. I have an idea though, since this game isn't designed to be team deathmatch, and other games are, maybe go play one of them? This game is designed to be a team game, played with 5 people working together as a unit to take objectives. When you have some people trying to work as a unit, and some just ignoring everyone and everything and doing whatever they want, one or likely both groups is not going to have a good time.

If these champs need to remain how they are, why not at least cap off how fed they can be? I mean what kind of nonsense is a level 18 max build LB running around in a game where everyone else is 12-14. What's the point of that? One guy runs around killing everyone instantly and nobody else matters for the rest of the game. High level play will never see a champ do this, and that's what the game is balanced for. So why not put in mechanics that would stop this nonsense?

85 Comments

Jaygo4113 votes

people have a boner for vayne... so they wouldnt nerf she's actually fairly strong in all ins early game "but muh vayne mechanics" a champion that's supposed to be the postergirl of difficulty and ad carry mechanics has a 51% win rate, stating that the average player wins just over half of the games they play with her. that's not how "hard" champs are supposed to work but everyone still complained about lee sin when he was winning 45% of the games she's picked in too bad vayne's the most popular champ in league of legends

Zenthon Prime6 votes

The only reason people are talking about and playing Vayne now is because they're playing tanks, aka the thing Vayne was designed to counter. Surprise surprise, the anti-tank ADC is good in a tank meta. When this meta ends (and it will, likely for a mage meta in 4.13) nobody will give a crap about Vayne anymore, even though nothing her changed. Kind of like Lee Sin. Funny how that works.

But you're right that Vayne is easy to play and anyone that says otherwise has never played an actually difficult champion.

BluePolarizer10 votes

A fed Vayne cannot be shut down if you don't have the team comp for it. It isn't even about getting other lanes ahead, if you don't have the comp for it you flat out can't do shit against Vayne, but if you DO have the comp for it, its not a guaranteed win either. Games with Vayne in it are decided at champ select and in the first 5 minutes. If Vayne doesn't feed like hell in the first 5 minutes she's probably either gonna hard carry or be the sole focus of your entire team. Ekko, Riven, LeBlanc, Zed, Kat, etc. can't shut Vayne down.

JustMyBassCannon6 votes

Oh, the team has to work together to take down a late-game marksman/assassin if they get a lead. What a surprise. Not.

Pro tip: generally, you need teammates to take down anyone that gets a lead if they're competent.

InsaneSamurai4 votes

{quoted}

Oh, the team has to work together to take down a late-game marksman/assassin if they get a lead. What a surprise. Not.

Pro tip: generally, you need teammates to take down anyone that gets a lead if they're competent.

Yeah lemme know how many random teams actually pull that off properly when they're already 5-10 kills up on everyone else :P

I know how its supposed to work, but that doesn't apply to most games with randomly paired teams. Since the game is designed around organized teams, why give these champs a cap so high that it will only apply in games with bad matchmaking and poor decision making?

Sorgklaan2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah lemme know how many random teams actually pull that off properly when they're already 5-10 kills up on everyone else :P

I know how its supposed to work, but that doesn't apply to most games with randomly paired teams.

exactly

Silents4292 votes

{quoted}

Yeah lemme know how many random teams actually pull that off properly when they're already 5-10 kills up on everyone else :P

I know how its supposed to work, but that doesn't apply to most games with randomly paired teams. Since the game is designed around organized teams, why give these champs a cap so high that it will only apply in games with bad matchmaking and poor decision making?

Why the hell would you think nerfing a champion based on the occasional bad match making was a good idea?

She is balanced, if she gets ahead coordinate and kill her, if your team sucks then that is a fault in itself, not Vaynes fault.

InsaneSamurai1 votes

{quoted}

Why the hell would you think nerfing a champion based on the occasional bad match making was a good idea?

She is balanced, if she gets ahead coordinate and kill her, if your team sucks then that is a fault in itself, not Vaynes fault.

That's not what I said, and either you know it and are trolling, or are far to dedicated to Vayne to listen to reason.

Silents4291 votes

I know how its supposed to work, but that doesn't apply to most games with randomly paired teams. Since the game is designed around organized teams, why give these champs a cap so high that it will only apply in games with bad matchmaking and poor decision making?

You imply the cap can only be beaten by organized team effort, you admit she can be beaten, yet want he nerfed because you can't get good players.

InsaneSamurai1 votes

{quoted}

You imply the cap can only be beaten by organized team effort, you admit she can be beaten, yet want he nerfed because you can't get good players.

Every champ can be beaten, that doesn't mean they're all perfectly balanced.

BluePolarizer3 votes

if you don't have the team comp for it you flat out can't kill Vayne, the same way if you don't have the team comp for it you flat out can't beat Kalista.

Mat7itan4 votes

If vayne gets a lead then you failed to stop a late champion who is rather weak early so yeah she is going to destroy you.

MohawkBird37 votes

[deleted]

Baunjo2 votes

her knockback only becomes a stun when you are knocked into terrain. So don't stand between vayne and a wall?

FastAsHeck8 votes

are we just gonna ignore the fact that vayne has her tumble and gains 90 movespeed when she ults? not standing between her and a wall is practically impossible unless you are literally in the middle of the map

Baunjo3 votes

{quoted}

are we just gonna ignore the fact that vayne has her tumble and gains 90 movespeed when she ults? not standing between her and a wall is practically impossible unless you are literally in the middle of the map

Im so sick of all this retarded qqing about a champion when i watch people play against champs like vayne and the literally dont even try to fight her during teamfights, or if they do, they go in one after another and shit on. If you cant predict how a vayne is going to tumble in relation to a wall condemn you seriously need to learn how to position yourself better. and she only gains 90 movespeed when moving towards an enemy champion. Vayne doesn't get a 2 second stun and 90 movespeed just flat out of her ass, its conditional.

FastAsHeck1 votes

vayne is impossible to kill 1v1 or 2v2. if there is a teamfight or a skirmish and you focus her you can kill her (if you cc her long enough so she doesnt use HER FUCKING FREE KHAZIX ULTIMATE)

Baunjo1 votes

{quoted}

vayne is impossible to kill 1v1 or 2v2. if there is a teamfight or a skirmish and you focus her you can kill her (if you cc her long enough so she doesnt use HER FUCKING FREE KHAZIX ULTIMATE)

I don't understand why you think vayne cant be beaten 1v1 or 2v2 or appearantly whatsoever. It just blows my mind. Elaborate please

FastAsHeck1 votes

i dont think we play the same game... vayne gets hundreds of free gold in stats for quite a bit of time when she ults. also % true missing hp damage is ridiculus.

Partholonian1 votes

This is great advice unless Vayne is more mobile than you are. Which is pretty much every adc other than maybe Lucian and Ezreal.

Baunjo1 votes

Im not understanding what youre saying, you know you dont have to have mobility to win trades right?

BluePolarizer17 votes

Vayne is not that weak early. With a displacement support like Alistar Blitzcrank Thresh it is one of the few lanes with multiple hard CCs. Starting at lvl. 3 Vayne is deadly if even a single CC lands on you or your support, since she can follow up with her own stun.

Vayne's weakness is to poke mages and bot lane bullies. She excels against hard engage and melee assassins, especially skillshot or melee hard engage. Guess whats strong in this meta? engage tanks. Melee assassins are also extremely popular, if not exceptionally strong. Guess who are weak in this meta? Poke mages, because they get assassinated easily and are allergic to hard engage, and bot lane bullies, because they fall off late game and can't deal with tanks.

Now Vayne also has alot of tanks to peel/engage for her as well, making her even safer.

InsaneSamurai4 votes

{quoted}

Vayne is not that weak early. With a displacement support like Alistar Blitzcrank Thresh it is one of the few lanes with multiple hard CCs. Starting at lvl. 3 Vayne is deadly if even a single CC lands on you or your support, since she can follow up with her own stun.

Vayne's weakness is to poke mages and bot lane bullies. She excels against hard engage and melee assassins, especially skillshot or melee hard engage. Guess whats strong in this meta? engage tanks. Melee assassins are also extremely popular, if not exceptionally strong. Guess who are weak in this meta? Poke mages, because they get assassinated easily and are allergic to hard engage, and bot lane bullies, because they fall off late game and can't deal with tanks.

Now Vayne also has alot of tanks to peel/engage for her as well, making her even safer.

Yeah, the other day we ran into a 4 tanks and a Vayne team. Holy hell that was harsh.

BluePolarizer6 votes

Chogath GragasOrianna Vayne Alistar

the team that makes you want to quit the game.

Unless you get fed as Jinx, Twitch, Kog, Trist, Ashe, Xerath or Ahri there's not much you can do about that team, and as a melee, there's literally NOTHING you can do. You can't get to Vayne as Zed, Yi, Riven... nothing. If that Vayne was any other ADC, you still have the hope of bursting them down while they CC'ed, or have your entire team just charge into them, since most other ADCs either don't have tank shredding damage (but have mobility) or have damage with no mobility. Vayne? Nope dodge your skillshot, shoot you into a wall then kill you instantly because lolmobility loldamage.

InsaneSamurai1 votes

{quoted}

Chogath GragasOrianna Vayne Alistar

the team that makes you want to quit the game.

Unless you get fed as Jinx, Twitch, Kog, Trist, Ashe, Xerath or Ahri there's not much you can do about that team, and as a melee, there's literally NOTHING you can do. You can't get to Vayne as Zed, Yi, Riven... nothing. If that Vayne was any other ADC, you still have the hope of bursting them down while they CC'ed, or have your entire team just charge into them, since most other ADCs either don't have tank shredding damage (but have mobility) or have damage with no mobility. Vayne? Nope dodge your skillshot, shoot you into a wall then kill you instantly because lolmobility loldamage.

Oh god I hope I never run into that!

It's like at that point you really just gotta hope Gragas bricks his ult :)

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

Rammus <-MFW I ran into almost this exact comp and had to try and carry as Garen

"Ok"

Baunjo1 votes

{quoted}

Chogath GragasOrianna Vayne Alistar

the team that makes you want to quit the game.

Unless you get fed as Jinx, Twitch, Kog, Trist, Ashe, Xerath or Ahri there's not much you can do about that team, and as a melee, there's literally NOTHING you can do. You can't get to Vayne as Zed, Yi, Riven... nothing. If that Vayne was any other ADC, you still have the hope of bursting them down while they CC'ed, or have your entire team just charge into them, since most other ADCs either don't have tank shredding damage (but have mobility) or have damage with no mobility. Vayne? Nope dodge your skillshot, shoot you into a wall then kill you instantly because lolmobility loldamage.

Theres so many more ways to play the game than just TDM for christ sakes! Can't do alot against vayne as zed? maybe not try and go in 1v5 and wait for someone on your team with engage ( if that is what your team comp is ) otherwise split-push. No one on that team can 1v1 a zed or riven. Just keep splitting and use that crazy mobility to not die if they rotate

BluePolarizer1 votes

Sure, they can then counterplay with either a hard engage 4v5 and let you take up to inhib in exchange for winning the game directly, or force baron, or waveclear with Ori/Cho under turret while sending multiple after you.

You think that ppl can't deal with a splitpushing Zed or Riven? You even assume that Zed or Riven are ahead; Zed vs. Ori is disfavorable to Ori but Riven can't do shit to Cho if Cho isn't a potato.

And yes, Vayne with a QSS and BT can easily 1v1 Zed and especially Riven. Riven in particular can never touch Vayne without flash because Vayne can cancel Riven's 3rd Q with E and you'll never catch up to her.

Baunjo1 votes

{quoted}

Sure, they can then counterplay with either a hard engage 4v5 and let you take up to inhib in exchange for winning the game directly, or force baron, or waveclear with Ori/Cho under turret while sending multiple after you.

You think that ppl can't deal with a splitpushing Zed or Riven? You even assume that Zed or Riven are ahead; Zed vs. Ori is disfavorable to Ori but Riven can't do shit to Cho if Cho isn't a potato.

And yes, Vayne with a QSS and BT can easily 1v1 Zed and especially Riven. Riven in particular can never touch Vayne without flash because Vayne can cancel Riven's 3rd Q with E and you'll never catch up to her.

If you can have 2 people splitting that shouldnt be an issue. Especially if the other 3 are pressuring somewhere else. Also good players will take teleport if they know they will not be able to contribute to teamfights well so you can stop things like baron or just port back to your team

BluePolarizer1 votes

if you have 2 ppl splitting, then Vayne can defend and if she has a QSS, easily stop one of the splitpushers (most likely Riven). Now you are left with a 4v3, which quickly can become 4v2 with an optimal grag ult, Chogath Q or Alistar knockup.

The Ecdysiast7 votes

"Failed to stop a late champion."

You mean, "Failed to win the game in 20 minutes." You don't just stop a champion. Unless your whole team has massive advantages early and can end it quickly, that champ's not magically going to stop being broken come late game.

InsaneSamurai4 votes

{quoted}

"Failed to stop a late champion."

You mean, "Failed to win the game in 20 minutes." You don't just stop a champion. Unless your whole team has massive advantages early and can end it quickly, that champ's not magically going to stop being broken come late game.

Yeah it takes a LOT to totally shut someone down if they're being really safe and just trying to farm up for an item. As it should, I think, but the idea of them gaining so much power almost guaranteed at some point is really harsh. The amount of teamwork and mismatched teams required to completely stop her would be unrealistic to expect in a normal situation.

MetalGearTeemu1 votes

You can "shut down" a carry in Dota. Because they lose money on death, and farming is much less safe due to how strong CC can be.

"Shutting down" Vayne in league means she's already on a killing spree.

Gee Gee etc.

masterdragon4814 votes

Once again, everyone just mentions Vayne's strengths and completely ignores the things that she gives up to have those strengths. If you just sit there and ignore her weaknesses, she should, and will, steam roll you.

  1. She has NO power outside of 550 range. This is very rare for a carry. It means she is in range of all sorts of nasty things; some things that other carries completely outrange (or at the very least, have more play room).

  2. She has no waveclear ability whatsoever. She can build shiv, at the cost of damage (in the form of crit and as), but this doesn't really improve her speed by that much. And she still has the problem of only being able to proc it in 550 range.

  3. Her main defense is countered by 100g or 250g. If you are playing against a vayne, upgrade red trinket! sure, you might lose a bit of ward potential, but if your job is going to be diving the vayne every game, its worth it!

  4. Outside of a conditional stun, Vayne has very few ways to help allies; she is a very selfish champion who's kit isn't useful for anything except killing enemy champions. Sure, the knockback might be useful, but situations arguing both sides of this can easily be thought of.

  5. She handles multiple people diving her very poorly. Silverbolts can only be applied to one champion at a time. If she can't commit to a single target due to multiple threats, she basically doesn't have a W; which is, of course, the ability that frustrates people the most.

  6. The tank meta is where Vayne is strong, and suppose to be strong. A few seasons ago, where there were nothing but assassins in every lane all the time (jungle, mid, top, etc....the spirit stone days) Vayne was nowhere to be found, and was getting obliterated if she showed up due to her lack of safety.

In general, one champion getting fed doesn't remove the team aspect of the game. First of all, it was team effort (for both parties) that resulted in a champion getting fed in the first place. Similarly, it is team effort that decides what happens next and how you deal with the champion being fed. If you play into the strengths of a fed champion, you aren't going to succeed. And that has nothing to do with the game not being a team game.

If I have a fed top laner, you can be darn sure that I'm going to use that asset to the best of my ability. If I know he is going to pull multiple people top, I can apply pressure elsewhere on the map. Having champions fed does not reduce the team aspect of the game.

InsaneSamurai1 votes

{quoted} (didn't wanna repost that whole thing)

Most of the weaknesses you mention are basically negated by having a Vayne and/or a support that understands how to use her well.

BluePolarizer2 votes

Her main defense is not invisiblity. It just makes her more BS.

Her main defense is a 2 sec CD dash and a fuck ton of base damage, so much base damage in fact that you can hit 400+ AD without even buying an IE, on top of an autoattack reset and true damage on-hit.

If you dive her with multiple people you are putting multiple people into her autoattack range as well as into the jaws of CC. You aren't the only ones with a team.

The real way to beat Vayne is to never get into her range. That requires playing poke mages. Other than Nidalee, poke mages are disfavored by the meta right now because they're allergic to both assassins and hard engage.

DrNova3 votes

The complaint of the month this month is Vayne iit seems

Llanite3 votes

Uh what's wrong with putting more emphasis on the person that hoards more gold?

InsaneSamurai1 votes

{quoted}

Uh what's wrong with putting more emphasis on the person that hoards more gold?

When it starts making a team game less of a team game. If things like this couldn't happen, more players would be willing to work as a team to accomplish things as the game is being balanced around. As it is, this odd, not really practical concept of getting so fed you can take over has seemed to convince the vast majority of players to play like that's the goal of every game.

Llanite3 votes

{quoted}

When it starts making a team game less of a team game. If things like this couldn't happen, more players would be willing to work as a team to accomplish things as the game is being balanced around. As it is, this odd, not really practical concept of getting so fed you can take over has seemed to convince the vast majority of players to play like that's the goal of every game.

A team working together to take down another team that tries to protect a member. Sound plenty of teamwork to me.

Now if a fed member is barely stronger than an average player who don't give a damn, no one will try at all.

Xonra3 votes

Had a Vayne on my team yesterday that...holy crap she was bad.

  • She started 0/3
  • was about 60 cs down at all points of the lane
  • just hugged the turret and did nothing else, never left bot lane even when everyone else was mid.

Suuuuuddenly she gets some items, starts fighting, and this feeding, frustrating to support Vayne starts killing everyone. Gets our team going then just poofs into the night like batman after our team gets ahead from her just showing up with itesm.

She did nothing much for the rest of the game, but no one on the enemy team could fight her at all, and she just split pushed (which was fine cause she still wasn't good at all).

So basically, she fed, couldn't farm, and still popped out like a ninja and wrecked, then went back to doing nothing. Not saying Vayne is op, not saying she is easy, but this person on most other adcs would have been a huge burden, and she was early, then suddenly wasn't because she was on Vayne.

It was very confusing.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

item 2043 item 3362 Teemo Quinn

InsaneSamurai1 votes

{quoted}

item 2043 item 3362 Teemo Quinn

Those do help, but won't swing a fight if the Vayne doesn't do anything stupid(like keep trying to trade after they get blinded). And the vision ward is a one shot where you have to place it between her activating her ult and hitting q to even get use out of it that one time. Then she gets 30 gold (possibly from your 100 gold expense) just for one better chance to get away from her.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Yeah, I know what you mean. But I don't ever use the ward to run from her, I use it to continue auto-attacking when she Q's, since cloaks usually break that target.

BluePolarizer2 votes

You assume that you are even able to beat her in an autoattack duel. The real reason to use pink is if you are using a super bursty assassin like Rengar, you can actually kill her instantly, rather than her R/Q instantly then you dying for free.

kJs1 votes

item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3110 item 3110 item 3110 item 3110 item 3110

She's probably the only ADC or champion for that matter who's kit deals no inherent damage, who's damage source is entirely, completely derived from autoattacks. Aside from small damage from item 3153 Active, she relies on autoattacks to deal damage. A late game Rammus Lissandra Nautilus Helps immensely.

InsaneSamurai2 votes

{quoted}

item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3075 item 3110 item 3110 item 3110 item 3110 item 3110

She's probably the only ADC or champion for that matter who's kit deals no inherent damage, who's damage source is entirely, completely derived from autoattacks. Aside from small damage from item 3153 Active, she relies on autoattacks to deal damage. A late game Rammus Lissandra Nautilus Helps immensely.

Except armor and thornmail help less against Vayne than other adcs.

kJs1 votes

How? The point of Thornmail is to counter AA reliant team compositions. Vayne relies on AA to deal 99.98% of her damage. Literally the main reason why you build Thornmail.

You make no sense, Vayne deals Physical and True damage. Building health isn't sufficient, you have to build a but ton of armor as well in order to "tank" Vayne effectively even if Vayne is an anti-tank.

InsaneSamurai3 votes

{quoted}

How? The point of Thornmail is to counter AA reliant team compositions. Vayne relies on AA to deal 99.98% of her damage. Literally the main reason why you build Thornmail.

You make no sense, Vayne deals Physical and True damage. Building health isn't sufficient, you have to build a but ton of armor as well in order to "tank" Vayne effectively even if Vayne is an anti-tank.

I didn't say it doesn't help, of course it does. I said it helps less against her than most other adcs.

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