"Can you imagine if (old)Veigar was a popular pick?"

InsaneSamurai·Mar 1, 2015·111 votes·4,735 views

Yes, I can, and it would be far less annoying than Lee, Zed, Kali or Nid.

98 Comments

RikariMar 1, 201523 votes

Leblanc

InsaneSamuraiMar 1, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I should never forget the LB :)

A Miss FortuneMar 1, 20152 votes

Leblanc has counters actually, mainly to her combos you can kill her or poke her back even harder, or simply just stop the combo. Leblanc is EXTREMELY squishy too and if you get cc'ed you might as well just sit there and await your death. I've played Leblanc to see if she was actually broken or balanced. Her combo isn't the easiest to hit since if you make one mistake you can die or just do no damage. She's definitely not a super high skill based champ, but she isn't the lowest either. This on top of her only crowd control is a stun that you can walk out of the way of quite easily makes her able to be countered.

I've mained AP Sona for hundreds of games I think now, she is the anti-christ to Leblanc. When Leblanc uses her W > Q (> and then R if she has ult typically) to poke her enemies, you can win the trade with your Q/Passive.

Sona : You can do more damage or just simply stun her and stop her combination as you kill her

Ahri : Not sure if I have seen this lane enough to be professional, though Ahri can just land a charm on her when she does her poking/engaging combo

Yasuo : Wind wall and while her stuff is on cooldown, engage and kill

Zed : Not really able to counterplay LB too hard besides his ultimate ability, and the fact he does more damage

Swain : I haven't seen this guy enough to be professional about this matchup, though he has a lot of spellvamp if I remember or just health regeneration abilities while Leblanc doesn't really have any sustain at all, and while Leblanc comes in with her W you can always stun her lol.

DarthSpectrumMar 2, 20152 votes

I play every champion you listed besides Swain, and Sona is the only one that has the upperhand in lane with LB due to her W and ult.

Ahri's combo costs just as much mana for less damage. The only hope she has is to charm LB before she ports back in less than half a second.

Yasuo's base stats are terrible to make up for his 2x crit passive. One Q and W combo from LB literally does close to 50% of his health early on without his shield on. In addition, LB E stops Yasuo in his tracks, and Wind Wall is bugged to not block close range targetted spells in some instances.

If a LB loses to Yasuo in lane, she is either AFK or OOM.

Zed mainly has a skill match up against LB, as they both do similar amount of damage to each other. However, LB has a much easier time landing her spells than Zed and her full combo has a much lower CD.

All these champions will have to wait until late game when LB falls off to kill her. In any other situation, LB can either run if a fight turns sour, or chunk them for the better part of their health bars.

ReazaleMar 3, 20151 votes

Dmg wise , she doesnt fall off. Its on full teamfights where she doesnt shine as much (or used to)

chumblerMar 1, 201521 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I can, and it would be far less annoying than Lee, Zed, Kali or Nid.

Yeah, Veigar actually had counterplay before they decided to give him even more counterplay, i.e., turn him to complete shit.

originary91Mar 1, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Veigar actually had counterplay before they decided to give him even more counterplay, i.e., turn him to complete shit.

The counter play to Veigar was to delay or destroy your build by buying a QSS and Merc Treads. That was it. Outside of that there was no counter play whatsoever. In fact, that's not even counter play. That's just itemisation geared towards survival.

AltricadMar 1, 20158 votes

No, just no

Pretty sure sending your top-laner Renekton to force him to deploy his stun and then following up is counterplay

Also sure that having your support buy a item 3222 is counterplay

It's people like you that give Riot the wrong idea. Champions and your Items aren't your ONLY counterplay.

It's like saying Udyr can't be outrun and has no counterplay. You don't push too far alone when there's an udyr on their team that can chase you down and kill you

League is a TEAM game

ReazaleMar 3, 20151 votes

Most ppl forget that even if his E and W were long ranged , his Q and R were short... he had to walk up to aa range to get his combo off , and it needed a second and a half to land. thats gives u more time to ur teammates (not stunned target) to react with shields, laterns , windwalls or ccs on Veigar.

Saminus MaximusMar 1, 201530 votes

{quoted}

The counter play to Veigar was to delay or destroy your build by buying a QSS and Merc Treads. That was it. Outside of that there was no counter play whatsoever. In fact, that's not even counter play. That's just itemisation geared towards survival.

Soooo, kinda like how every ap mid laner is forced to rush zhonyas vs zed?

ThryaleMar 1, 201510 votes

sadly, the reason this is overlooked is due to the fact that zhonya's can be considered core on most mages due to the high ap it gives.

junglerboy16Mar 2, 20151 votes

See: summoner 1 , item 3111 , item 3102 as common items and spells that anyone can work with, and item 3139 for any AD champion facing him.

ThryaleMar 2, 20151 votes

the problem with cleanse is that (assuming equal skill on both sides) you are sacrificing an offensive advantage. most often this could end up costing you the lane (altho with zed, he's got enough offense to make up for it)

Banshee's (while super effective) will cripple you if you try to rush it too early, and MS is an often overlooked item due to Maw being so much more effective in most cases.

That being said, a zed (or any mid lane champ that doesn't need sorc boots) that doesn't grab merc treads against the likes of ap assassins or bursters are fools in my book

(I personally feel that merc treads are just too good atm, the tenacity it provides is so powerful)

junglerboy16Mar 2, 20151 votes

That's another thing, rushing hex drinker is actually very effective against Veigar because it gives you a ton more effective health because of the MR and the spell shield passive. it doesn't deal with the stun itself, but it allows you to survive his early burst very well, and if Veigar can't burst you, he is as good as dead.

WhereTheNamesAtMar 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Saminus Maximus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n39PAs2K,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2015-03-01T16:40:11.536+0000)

Soooo, kinda like how every ap mid laner is forced to rush zhonyas vs zed?

except the fact that every ap mid laner should get a zhonya's anyway. The active on it is just to good not to have it and plus it gives 120 AP. What item in this game can give melee characters damage and the survivability of qss, banshee's, ga (besides mercurial scimitar which isn't core on anyone and the 3rd most expensive item in the game).

B1naryB0tMar 1, 201517 votes

Didn't Riot once say "We don't like to nerf champions that are already unpopular"?

TheKingDodoMar 1, 201512 votes

according to riot, this veigar thing's not a nerf, it's a "change" I know it's confusing... but I didn't write riot's handbook of BS euphemisms.

ThryaleMar 1, 20153 votes

it's still a net nerf reguardless. Don't let technicalities obscure that.

Phoenix Kotori Mar 1, 20152 votes

Change means there is room for buffs in the future based off performance after the change.

ThryaleMar 1, 20154 votes

The problem is veig's kit is too binary for buffs atm. You either can't do jack, or you obliterate ppl if they are stupid. There is no room for veigar to show skill or mastery, he just has to wait for his opponent to screw up. And it's that passivity that sucks.

Veigar is supposed to be one of the strongest end game champs in the game due to his infinite scaling, so why the heck should he have to rely on his opponents to screw up before he can land his burst? Should he be capable of taking the offensive once the "tables have turned"?

In fact, that was veig's identity: turning the tables on the enemy. He purposefully suffers and extreme disadvantage in lane in exchange for the ability to turn the tables on his opponents if they don't end the game soon enough. This necessitates veigar having the ability to act offensively and take proactive steps in ensuring his opponent's painful demise.

But right now, his kit is sink or swim. Either you land the stun and insta-gib someone or you miss (let's face it, simply pressing E means you "miss" for at least 1 sec) and get rekt and/or your victim gets away /laughing at you.

In short, veigar needs more changes before he can ever see any significant buffs simply because his core issues atm are not number balance problems.

CitizenToastMar 2, 20154 votes

"In short" Just putting salt on the wounds, man.

The SoulforgedMar 2, 20151 votes

He really isn't as feast/famine as any of the big offenders. I think he's about as feast/famine as any other normal champ :/

ReazaleMar 3, 20151 votes

Less so than others , with his old stun he could cap cdr and help with stuns when he was doing badly... Now , who knows , maybe just farm til u can Q-R ppl, might wanna grab a lichbane and a hextech to add to ur combo.

The SoulforgedMar 7, 20151 votes

Sry, I was referring to old veigar.

A Miss FortuneMar 1, 201516 votes

I think I would be okay with Veigar taking Nidalee's popularity.

Nidalee is just flat out annoying, you either dodge her spear and live or get hit by it and if you don't get one-shot she just executes you with her built in, no mana cost mini flash that she can use every 3 seconds.

Veigar's stun was very annoying but at least you had higher chances to survive his combo, ironically he was designed as a high burst damage mage. The only way you could really die to his combo was if you walked into the range of his stun. Otherwise he could only just Q and R you which I think in most cases wouldn't be enough or would require DFG to finish the job.

1st HanarSpectreMar 1, 20157 votes

{quoted}

I think I would be okay with Veigar taking Nidalee's popularity.

Nidalee is just flat out annoying, you either dodge her spear and live or get hit by it and if you don't get one-shot she just executes you with her built in, no mana cost mini flash that she can use every 3 seconds.

Veigar's stun was very annoying but at least you had higher chances to survive his combo, ironically he was designed as a high burst damage mage. The only way you could really die to his combo was if you walked into the range of his stun. Otherwise he could only just Q and R you which I think in most cases wouldn't be enough or would require DFG to finish the job.

Tehre are several thing wrong with this. Let's go in no particular order. "You have to walk into the range of his ult" => not being 1000 range or closer to minions, ever. "He could only Q and R" => Yeah, still disregarding staying 1000 unit away from all minions and objective firstly, and second Q + R late game was enough to kill an AP laner. DFG's use was not to kill ap units, he never needed it for that, it was for tankier units with no ap. Did you also forget his stun is AoE, as in effect your whole team? Even if you did survive his combo, he's not alone, and you might not be the only one stunned either.

"Nidalee is flat out annoying" => Plenty of characters are annoying, that doesn't mean much. "Get one shot" => Uh, yeah, no that ain't happening bud, unless you ragequit at lv 1 and came in against a lv 18 Nidalee. "Execute with pounce" => first of all, pounce doesn't execute, takedown her Q does, now with that in mind. Yeah, it's manaless, but guess what, she can't reach you because it has 375 range unless you get hunted, IE you didn't dodge the spear, a spear, which cost a lot of mana btw.

Listen friend, I'm sorry you are unhappy with Veigar nerfs, plenty of people are. It's also unfortunate that a currently popular champion annoys you. However that doesn't give you the right to splooge your 100% wrong, garbage filled rotting verbal diarrhea on the forums.

tl;dr Stop making shit up.

A Miss FortuneMar 1, 201516 votes

/salt

1st HanarSpectreMar 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

/salt

You have to be pretty salty to make up a whole bunch of thing just so you can complain on a forum! Just sayin'

P.S I'm talking about you! ;D

A Miss FortuneMar 1, 201519 votes

/salty nidalee main confirmed

BetaDude40Mar 1, 201513 votes

"Just dodge the spear"

Anything I have learned from Season 3 Nidalee is you can't dodge for long. At one point, she WILL hit a spear, regardless. The only difference is that now she has a follow-up execute added alongside the damage.

ThefriendlyorcMar 1, 20155 votes

Pretty much. And the fact that you can never catch her is an issue. Sure you can dodge a spear, but unless you burn several CD's and a summoners, you're unlikely to catch Nid, much less kill her, as she'll be at full health if she even farms a little.

A Miss FortuneMar 1, 20154 votes

Her pounce/execute should have really high mana costs and should increase as you use them like how Kassadin's ult worked.

ThefriendlyorcMar 1, 20153 votes

Yeah, I fought one yesterday as Gragas in aram... you cant catch her. At all, I'd throw my barrel behind her, she'd have enough time to shift and pounce before the barrel reached her.

originary91Mar 1, 20153 votes

People thinking that old Veigar would be a healthier Meta than Zed/Nid. LMAO. I've seen it all. Veigar was a bullshit champ. Never understood why people defend him yet have the audacity to complain about Irelia's stun. Actually, I do. He's a mage. LoL forums likes Mages and ADCs. In turn they hate anything and everything with an assassin play style or assassination potential. Pathetic, really. You're a fool if you think Old Veigar with DFG would be healthier than current Nidalee.

Veigar should never be allowed to be strong. Not with his kit. Riot did the right thing.

BetaDude40Mar 1, 201511 votes

And why, exactly? Why can't a champion be strong? What is wrong with having an AoE stun and damage at the cost of no mobility and no health?

In the League of Mobility Creep, you gotta have either an instant lockdown or tons of mobility to stay alive, and Veigar had only one of that. His skillshot Q isn't going to be as reliable, and it seems to be geared more towards farming. His W is never going to hit someone without landing a stun. Period. His ult is very close range, and he can be punished easily if he ventures out of the zone of safety.

I'll agree with Riot that a nerf on his E delay would have been okay, but this is just WAY too much. 1.25 seconds is insanely long for an ability like Veigar's. I say they should remove his cast time and make the delay 0.5 seconds, that way it will feel just like the old stun, but the enemy will now get the warning particles so they can "counterplay" him to death. It's a win-win for both parties.

ThryaleMar 1, 20153 votes

the cast time has been confirmed to be .25 secs.

other than that, I agree with you.

InsaneSamuraiMar 1, 20155 votes

{quoted}

People thinking that old Veigar would be a healthier Meta than Zed/Nid. LMAO. I've seen it all. Veigar was a bullshit champ. Never understood why people defend him yet have the audacity to complain about Irelia's stun. Actually, I do. He's a mage. LoL forums likes Mages and ADCs. In turn they hate anything and everything with an assassin play style or assassination potential. Pathetic, really. You're a fool if you think Old Veigar with DFG would be healthier than current Nidalee.

Veigar should never be allowed to be strong. Not with his kit. Riot did the right thing.

Well, a couple things. First, I didn't say with DFG, and I also didn't say he was healthy, just that I'd rather be going up against him than any of the champs I listed. At least Veig needs a flash to erase you from across the lane, and once he does he's pretty defenseless.

ThryaleMar 1, 20154 votes

I personally think old veigar was way healthier than zed currently is.

I've never had an issue playing against old veigar unless my team was full of immobile champs that could be kited all day.

FiskMar 1, 20152 votes

I agree veigar is bad atm and needs work but really it would have been horrible if he was good. I mean we say a lot of things (I do at least) like "I wish X champion was good" then they get really good and they are extremely frustrating to play against (mf back in her short day and udyr are both examples). But think of it this way, you get hit by his stun and if he was actually strong, you are dead. Sure you get banshees or something but once he does get to you, he could just point click and kill you in .5 seconds. No way to outplay his massive stun if the veigar's good, no way to outplay his ult or Q and once you get stunned his W is easy to land and does almost as much damage as his ult (minus the 80% of your AP). It would just be instant death with no way to survive.

ThefriendlyorcMar 1, 20156 votes

God Nid has such a cancerous kit. I remember when they changed gragas cause they didnt want a 'hyper' mobility, heavy sustain poke champion that can 2 shot people. And here we are, a year later, Nidalee does the same thing. Except she heals/dashes more.

ZoofMar 1, 20155 votes

I'm sorry but is everyone here oblivious to the fact that Veigar was a incredibly meta pick as a support within the Korean scene, like NA isn't the only thing that matters. Seriously he was reaching insane popularity there with his ability to instantly stop a fight in its tracks where as we were still sitting around with our usual picks.

chumblerMar 1, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry but is everyone here oblivious to the fact that Veigar was a incredibly meta pick as a support within the Korean scene, like NA isn't the only thing that matters. Seriously he was reaching insane popularity there with his ability to instantly stop a fight in its tracks where as we were still sitting around with our usual picks.

You say that like there's anything wrong with him becoming a popular pick because he actually countered mobility creep. Everyone knows why he was nerfed (countering #LCSBIGPLAYS), the reason is just stupid and it shouldn't have happened.

ZoofMar 2, 20151 votes

Sorry for the late reply, but I think the problem lied within what he could stop exactly. Janna for example can stop engages from melee champions and that is essentially her thing. Veigar, on top of being a burst mage was also capable of stopping a fight in its tracks with his e. Then again, everything I've said makes no sense since they're releasing Bard with his ultimate. But yea, I never liked playing against Veigar, and I often felt oppressive while playing as him so I'm glad his e was changed, just sad to see them decimate the rest of his kit too.

MatezoideMar 2, 20155 votes

I have faced good Veigars. I also have faced good Zeds, Akalis, Kalista, Nidalee, Annies, etc..

I would rather face Veigar than any of those. There are at least 50 champions, on the top of my head, that are more annoying than Veigar.

His stun was broken as shit, yes, but he paid for it in other aspects.

DomainSpecificMar 1, 20153 votes

Only because I wouldn't get these "Kalista/Lee Sin pros" in my team that go 0-5 at 10 minutes trying to make LCS plays.

zetsutrollMar 1, 20153 votes

Flash DFG + R and anyone within the 2k hp radius will die. How is this fun again?

ThryaleMar 2, 20156 votes

just as fun as a flash+tibbers stun from annie.

Pvt Yong TaiMar 2, 20152 votes

I was unaware that health had a definable geometric shape.

Also, assuming that DFG is still in the game and R still had a 1.2 AP ratio:

A late-game ADC with 2000 HP (consistent with your example) and ZERO defense runes, masteries, or items (30 MR) vs. A Veigar with 1000 AP.
DFG deals 15% current health and amplifies other magic damage by 20%. R deals 500 (+1200) = 1700 AP damage. 1700 damage with a 120% modifier due to DFG active = 1700 * 1.2 = 2040 damage

2000 with 30 MR = 2000 * 1.3 HP modifier = 2600 effective HP against Magic Damage.

Veigar uses DFG. 2600 - 15% current health = 2600 - 390 = 2210 HP.

Veigar uses R. 2210 - 2040 = 170 HP. The ADC with absolutely no defense still did not die.

EedatMar 1, 20151 votes

Lee Sin isnt strong. His win rate is a consistent 46% across all ELOs. He was good last year but he's very weak in the season 5 jungle.

SEKAIMar 1, 20151 votes

Because nobody is actually good in the S5 jungle except Vi, J4 and ofc, Lee being okay (still out of jungle ganking he is pretty darn strong).

Vi and J4 can use some number nerfs and they would be mostly fine, not Lee, he is Olaf Extreme and needs to be completely dealt with by either a gut or otherwise, a rework.

And really, what's with the insane jungle difficulty in S5? At least in S4 you can pretty much pick anybody and attempt jungle with them, I thought this season is all about "diversity"?