At what point will you realize Lee(and balancing the jungle around him) is killing diversity?

InsaneSamurai·Feb 6, 2015·163 votes·6,520 views

When only him and a couple other junglers are remotely viable, something is wrong. It's mostly the jungle and how it's being tuned more and more to be exclusively for the top tier junglers, but it's also because those top tier junglers are so much better at it that you are effectively gimping your team by trying anything else.

Also, when you added 100 gold to the jungle item to "help the guy who gets killed during an early invade", do you realize you're huring that guy more than the people who killed him? The guy who got the kill just got a nice bit of gold and xp, and will have much less trouble farming up to his 450 starting jungle item. The guy who died now has to go clear 3 camps with no leash and a late start and pray that the enemy jungler doesn't come back in for a free kill. How is this helping the guy who got killed at all if he isn't Lee Sin and able to farm just about whatever he wants?

99 Comments

mi ramfanFeb 6, 201544 votes

I'm fine with them deciding on Lee Sin/J4/Vi as the "balance" point for junglers so long as they actually follow through with it.

Like, if Vi's mobility, burst, and CC are what should be "average" for a jungler, then they should be compensating all the junglers who don't have that stuff.

SinlaireFeb 6, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=394kyiBm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-06T15:34:25.516+0000)

I'm fine with them deciding on Lee Sin/J4/Vi as the "balance" point for junglers so long as they actually follow through with it.

Like, if Vi's mobility, burst, and CC are what should be "average" for a jungler, then they should be compensating all the junglers who don't have that stuff.

In all fairness Vi's CC is only single target on she only has a a single gapcloser/escape that requires a 2 second charge that comes at reduced runspeed before it can be used to full effectiveness.

J4's ult can trap an entire team for an all in slaughter and Lee can dive/ward hop, ult away your carry, and then continue wrecking your team with the rest of his mobility and utility.

Vi's greatest asset is her ability to focus a single target at the cost of next to 0 group utility and only a 10% max hp shield passive for hopefully enough survive ability to pull it off. Vi is just a high tier jungler in comparison to those two because her group damage and shield give her fast clear and high sustain, allowing her to stay out long enough to farm with decent health and utilize her assassin potential to snowball herself. An underfed Vi jungle is worthless. No ganks and no CC.

A starved Lee and J4 on the other hand still have their mobility and ability to set up plays for their team even if they lack their own damage and defence. Vi is a great jungler in good hands. J4 and Lee are good... always.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1720422090/33893354?tab=overview

a game of mine yesterday. Enemy Vi built stalker-warrior the BotRK, hexdrinker, tabi and 2 cloth. ended 4/10/3

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1719984120/33893354?tab=overview

my last Vi game. Trailblazer-warrior, trinity, warden, basic boots, hexdrinker and ended 10/4/8

and even as a JG Vi main it was all i could do to shut down that Lee Sin all game who ended 2/9/5 because he was constantly on my mid and bot lane and in my jg.

JoquanFeb 6, 20159 votes

{quoted}

In all fairness Vi's CC is only single target on she only has a a single gapcloser/escape that requires a 2 second charge that comes at reduced runspeed before it can be used to full effectiveness.

J4's ult can trap an entire team for an all in slaughter and Lee can dive/ward hop, ult away your carry, and then continue wrecking your team with the rest of his mobility and utility.

Vi's greatest asset is her ability to focus a single target at the cost of next to 0 group utility and only a 10% max hp shield passive for hopefully enough survive ability to pull it off. Vi is just a high tier jungler in comparison to those two because her group damage and shield give her fast clear and high sustain, allowing her to stay out long enough to farm with decent health and utilize her assassin potential to snowball herself. An underfed Vi jungle is worthless. No ganks and no CC.

A starved Lee and J4 on the other hand still have their mobility and ability to set up plays for their team even if they lack their own damage and defence. Vi is a great jungler in good hands. J4 and Lee are good... always.

You could have left it at this.

AsdeftFeb 7, 20155 votes

but then how could he plug his ego Fizz

manbearswineFeb 6, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=394kyiBm,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-06T15:34:25.516+0000)

I'm fine with them deciding on Lee Sin/J4/Vi as the "balance" point for junglers so long as they actually follow through with it.

Like, if Vi's mobility, burst, and CC are what should be "average" for a jungler, then they should be compensating all the junglers who don't have that stuff.

I'm not,look at what they did to seju for example,now the last thing I'm saying is that they nerfed seju,or that I don't like playing her now,or liked playing her before more,the issue is that seju used to be a tank jungler with a lot of cc and peel,which makes sense,tanks compensate for their lack of damage with cc and utility...except that now she does damage as well,now how is this fine you ask? It isn't,it's just fine compared to lee sin,now lee is very oppressive to picks everywhere,it's not just other junglers his heavy early pressure shoves out,mid laners,supports,adcs,top laners,everything.

They didn't fix sejuanis problems,they just turned her into a problem as well,why the hell does she deal so much damage(aside from "to compete with lee/j4/vi/etc")? it makes no sense.

Now this isn't jungle restricted at all,same goes on with thresh,idiotic garbage should've been nerfed long ago,now we are balancing supports around something which shouldn't exist,how does braum,with tankiness,peel,hard cc,a speed boost a dash and lockdown makes sense? well "to compete with thresh",stop creating new problems instead of solving old ones,you're just digging a grave for older champions with each one of these new releases balanced around champions who shouldn't be the way they are to begin with,same goes for zed(how does current xerath make sense? cause zed exists.).

ComeOnAndSlamJamFeb 6, 201531 votes

It's pure bullshit that Fearless admitted that they made the jungle harder because of Lee and J4. Quit playing favorites with balance. Revert the jungle item changes and nerf the problematic junglers.

BallisticMouseFeb 6, 201510 votes

I forgot which Riot member but...

Then Riot admitted to not nerfing Lee Sin because of the views he brings in with his LCSBIGPLAYS, or something along those lines.

Silents429Feb 6, 20155 votes

No. None of them said that.

Riot said his kit was fun, and that is why he was so popular, and they were having trouble nerfing him while keeping that fun.

ShinjusukeFeb 6, 201510 votes

If they can't come up with a solution after 3 years of him being a dominating jungle pick that literally nobody but Lee Sin mains thinks is okay in his current state or reasonable to play against, then tough-fuckin'-cookies about "keeping his fun". It's never stopped ANY rework for ANY other champion except Lee Sin, and a single egotistical Lee Sin main's "fun" isn't worth the fun of 5 other people on the other team because you can't do shit about him.

Silents429Feb 6, 20153 votes

Oh boy you are making a lot of big things come out of this.

No a lot more then just Lee mains think he is okay. He pretty much is. He just needs to be tweaked in a lot of areas. A jack of all trades champion shouldn't excel so heavily and that is what they want to fix.

What champion that got reworked the 2 years was fun to play, fit the meta, and wasn't broken as shit, or had a kit that made no sense.

As much as you hate Lee, He IS fun, he does fit the meta, he has a kit that doesn't fit and work together, and he isn't outdated. A rework isn't needed but tweaks to the damage, cooldowns, etc are needed.

But really he isn't that hard to deal with, he is a pain in the ass when fed but who isn't.

I started play Lee a few days ago the only thing I can think is this guy has to much shit in his kit, either cut the fat or reduce the fat itself.

ShinjusukeFeb 6, 20159 votes

so, recap:

"I started playing Lee a few days ago"
"This guy has too much shit in his kit"
"He just needs to be tweaked in a lot of areas"
"A jack-of-all-trades champion shouldn't excel so heavily"

in response to:

"nobody but Lee Sin mains think he's okay in his current state".

It sounds like you just said exactly what I said everyone but Lee Sin mains think. I don't see the issue.

Also, yes, he's fun to play. My point is that ONE Lee Sin player's fun in a game is not more important than everyone else or their champion preferences. I'm saying after 3 years, if they still haven't found a solution to keep his kit "fun" without being ridiculous, then A) Wow, that's sad, because it's not hard to do, and B) Too goddamn bad, it needs reworked anyway, just like every other champion whose kit was a problem for the game but was fun. Overloaded kits that let you do w/e the fuck you want are fun, big surprise. Dominating your lane(/jungle) opponent is fun. That doesn't make the champion with said kit okay, and Riot is aware of that except apparently when it comes to the guy with a massive fuckin' gap in play rate above any other jungler.

ImpendingDeathFeb 7, 20153 votes

Exactly...they had no trouble ruining Cassiopeia despite the massive number of people requesting that they don't go through with it and the fact that almost no one is playing her right now.

ShinjusukeFeb 7, 20153 votes

Or Dassadin. or Skarner. Or Karma. The list goes on.

Except Lee Sin. His rework was cancelled because of "Community outcry"

MajorPain9Feb 7, 20153 votes

Sure hasn't stopped them from all the other reworks last year. Only two I can think of that kept there identity or have it improved upon was Sion and Heimer.

RogueWillFeb 6, 201528 votes

Lee sin problem is actually easy to fix. Raise his cds. That will: 1- Bump his clear times, he will clear slower and thus won't be able to snowball that hard (unless he plans to fall behind in levels like every other jungler that focus ganking over farming) 2 - Promote better decision making. Lee will think twice before using his abilities as they won't be up again as soon as before. Currently if I miss a q, I have no problem waiting 10 sec and then try to gank again since all my cds are back. Vi vault breaker is on a 18 sec CD and is her only gap closer, why is lee allowed to have his gapclose on a half CD time.

Lee will still do what he does best but now he will have to have better decision making on when to do it and against who. He could still have the same cds at high levles but since his early is what is debalancing him. A 15sec CD Q will not make any Lee Sin less fun to play.

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 6, 20153 votes

They could also further emphasize the W mechanic where the cooldown is halved when targeting an allied champion. Currently it's still not enough incentive for Lee to try using allies more, and most Lees are just using Sightstone despite the hit to their cooldown.

ShinjusukeFeb 6, 20154 votes

Buffing how a skill works for "incentive" to use it differently is not a proper response to a champion whose already better than everyone else in his role. >.>

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 6, 20152 votes

It could be emphasized just as much by increasing the punishment cooldown for using it any other way. It can go both directions.

ShinjusukeFeb 6, 20155 votes

Sure, I'm just saying the only logical direction for fixing him is the one that brings the top champion down, not boosts him up lol

Then again, Rito does have a habit of confusing what "buff" and "nerf" mean sometimes :P

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 6, 20155 votes

One thing that Lee Sin absolutely does not need to function is his Spell Vamp on Iron Will. That's an outdated part of his kit.

ShinjusukeFeb 6, 201517 votes

Well, Riot's defense for the spell vamp is it's his "built in sustain" as a jungler and he "needs" it to clear (he doesn't need half the shit he has).

Honestly, the reason Lee Sin pisses me off so much is he is literally the posterboy of a hundred things Riot states are horrible for design and go against their design philosophy, but they favor him so goddamn much they just sweep complaints under the carpet.

I could be remembering the wrong Rioter, but I think it was Statikk or Meddler who once said that "champions should have the things they need, not the the things they want". Lee Sin has everything he could want and then some.

He does need a SIXTY percent AOE slow in addition to one of hte best hard CCs and some of (if not the) best mobility in the game.

He doesn't need insane base damages, execute damage, and crazy scaling (one of which, his ult, is an AOE when used properly. Like wtf.) when his kit has a billion things in it.

He doesn't need built in sustain and an attack speed boost. The list goes on.

I honestly could write a several page essay about all the problems with the champion, and all the shit that should've been done ages ago, but I've already done it multiple times over the last few years and Riot still has no interest in changing their favorite champion for the betterment of their game, so there's not much point.

Alaric11Feb 7, 20152 votes

Fucking post of the year right here.

LordOfTheLeagueFeb 6, 20151 votes

I kind of agree, increasing the Cd of his Q and his R would be the best way to balance him imo.

ShinjusukeFeb 6, 20151 votes

the problem is he still has way, WAY too much power and build diversity. Unless they raise all his skill cd's and his ult is on a like Karthus-level CD, he's still going to dominate simply because he has a fuckload of power in each skill, and even then a pure assassin Lee Sin is still going to be able to just instant-delete someone and (potentially, if he's any good) disrupt your team and get out safely without needing to use his skills a 2nd time in the fight. Anything tankier than pure assassin won't care about long CDs because he'll live long enough to use them again regardless. And in the jungle, he doesn't have to really have fast clears, because his earlygame presence is so ridiculous that unless he's pretty bad/new at either Lee Sin or jungling in general, he's able to bully you in your jungle or just dumpster on your lanes with his just-plain-nuts ganking power.

He can literally run the entire gamut between pure assassin and pure tank and be completely effective. That's not okay.

(J4 has similar problems but not nearly as bad)

LordOfTheLeagueFeb 6, 20153 votes

I think increasing his cds would just make him less oppresive and then he could keep his jack of all trades kit.

His Q cd make him really sticky or allow him to use minions/jungle monsters to escape while dealing huge damages.

His ultimate is good at too much things for such a low cd. It's a huge nuke, aoe CC, disengage, deplacement and I might forget things.

ShinjusukeFeb 6, 20157 votes

That's the problem though, his "jack-of-all-trades" kit can't exist. It's horrible for the game, and will never ever be balanced: it'll either be way too strong or completely worthless, because that's just the core of jack-of-all-trades kits in games. It's not a realistically balance-able character type.

If it's functional, it's going to be better than everything else in the right hands because it has an answer to everything. If it's not functional, it's.. well.. not functional. You can't use it.

There's no middle ground, it's an (unfortunate) realm of extremes. It just can't be done by the simple definition of what a "jack-of-all-trades" character is. No clearly defined weaknesses is a serious problem, and it's one Lee Sin has.

2 much sauuuceFeb 7, 20154 votes

"That's the problem though, his "jack-of-all-trades" kit can't exist. It's horrible for the game, and will never ever be balanced: it'll either be way too strong or completely worthless, because that's just the core of jack-of-all-trades kits in games"

This is exactly what Sona is for the supports. A little bit of everything. The funny thing is, while Sona is getting nerf after nerf after nerf, Lee is completely untouched.

Also Sona uses mana for her abilities. And a lot of it.

Funny how a jack of all trades support can't exist without having insane mana costs for her abilities because she "does too much" but a basically resourceless jack of all trades jungler who has been complained about for THREE seasons now has been almost completely untouched.

Riot, be FAIR in what you do. Sona is "oppressive in lane" and she gets beaten with a nerf bat. Lee is "oppressive in jungle" yet "he's perfectly fine"

Ulquiorra995Feb 6, 201521 votes

When for 4 seasons straight jungle champion pool consists of Lee and people who can deal with Lee it does not take a professional balance team to see that it's not a general problem with jungle which is killing diversity.

1.)Jungle diversity 2.)Lee in his current state

Pick one, Riot. And keep in mind that for every Lee player in a game there are 5 other players tired of playing against that overloaded piece of shit for 4th time in 5 of their games.

Envy SinFeb 7, 20155 votes

"for every Lee player in a game there are 5 other players tired of playing against that overloaded piece of shit for 4th time in 5 of their games."

I cannot upvote you enough.

BallisticMouseFeb 6, 201516 votes

They're aware, they want it this way.

ThePlasticSporkFeb 6, 201516 votes

"Strategic diversity"

Makes jungle super hard so that only high damage somewhat tanky types can clear and still be good to gank

Makes it so that the only viable mids are the ones that don't go OOM after 2 rotations of spells

ShinjusukeFeb 6, 201515 votes

They're aware Lee Sin cripples the jungle, they just don't care because he's their favorite. There really is no other way to look at it.

You don't make claims about opening jungle diversity, rework the jungle itself several times to do so, see the same champion dominate the jungle every. single. season., and not rework that champion unless you're just plain hypocritical and/or favor that champion above everyone else.

Or, you know, too scared to nerf the guy with the most fans because suddenly all your "yeah low counterplay and overloaded kits are bad" talk goes away when there's enough biased wannabe-pros losing their crutch champion.

YormaughmFeb 6, 201514 votes

So yesterday in the 2nd Najin e-Mfire vs. GE Tigers game, Watch, on a level 2 Lee Sin who had started Gromp immediately went down to J4's Red Buff as he was doing it and easily chased him off and honestly would have killed him if he hadn't misplayed. As it is he forced J4, the OTHER best jungler in the game to run for the hills and easily stole his red buff and came out with about 80% of his HP left with just a hunter's machete. Meanwhile J4 who had to pop his last pot to survive the gank, went over to his blue with around 25% health and managed to clear it at which point Doa, the shoutcaster who isn't Montecristo says "at least he has enough health to survive this y'know?" I'm betting almost any other jungler either A, wouldn't have escaped, or B, wouldn't have had enough health to realistically take blue camp without having to back first. The only reason Lee (The Jarvan player) wasn't crippled by this Level 2 gank literally 29 seconds after minions spawn is because he was J4. I'd also wager that if a J4 had ganked a Lee Sin in the same manner, the results probably would have been similar.

Tell me again how adding 100g to the first jungle upgrade hurts Lee Sin and J4?

Tell me again how the jungle isn't absolute bullshit right now. Granted it was bullshit in S4 too, for entirely different reasons.

I completely agree with the OP. Jungle balance changes haven't helped to solve the problem at all, they've only hurt every champion they were designed to help and haven't impacted the two biggest problem champs in the game. The only way to balance the game around Lee Sin and J4, is to make Lee Sin and J4 balanced, which they aren't. Not even remotely.

SmokingPuffinFeb 6, 20158 votes

You could delete Lee entirely and we'd still have near zero jungle diversity.

Lee is a symptom of the problem. The problem is that the jungle favors generalists; Riot was hoping to have specialists in ganking, dueling, counterjungling, and farming, but it turns out to be better to bring a versatile jungler that can do everything acceptably well, rather than a Nunu or a Master Yi type.

RetillinFeb 6, 20153 votes

Well yes and no. They would like to have specialists in different roles for the jungle. But the problem with Lee is that each of those roles (pick, poke, team fighting, ect...) he is good at. He might not be THE best, but picking him into any team comp does not hurt. So having the junglers who can do everything well are the problem. And Lee is #1 of them (for 3 years now).

JasiwelFeb 6, 20157 votes

I really don't understand what the issue is from a design/balance perspective. The champions are causing a lack of diversity in the jungle and are imbalanced. What is so hard for Riot to identify? I understand buffing champions is risky because they can really come out to be J4/Lee level of unfun and strong, but why can't they nerf champions that stifle diversity in the jungle and make the jungle more accessible for more junglers? This problem has existed already for one season and I'm just confused what the actual issue is to bringing down the power of diversity-stifling junglers.

LuciferFeb 7, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I really don't understand what the issue is from a design/balance perspective. The champions are causing a lack of diversity in the jungle and are imbalanced. What is so hard for Riot to identify? I understand buffing champions is risky because they can really come out to be J4/Lee level of unfun and strong, but why can't they nerf champions that stifle diversity in the jungle and make the jungle more accessible for more junglers? This problem has existed already for one season and I'm just confused what the actual issue is to bringing down the power of diversity-stifling junglers.

Because for some reason that philosophy only applies to certain champs in certain roles. I.e., if you use mana or are a squishy support, Riot will nerf you over and over again. If you're a tanky, don't have any real resources and have an overloaded kit Riot says you're healthy and will only love tap you at best.

OleandervineFeb 6, 20157 votes

I think what Riot is failing to understand is that if they nerf Lee Sin in the balls, he'll be on par with other junglers, and viewing games with different characters is more exciting than watching cookie cutter match ups.
Everyone sees Lee Sin, knows what he does, and its always like "Whoopee, he kicked someone in the nads again." This bores people seeing it game after game. However, if say there were more viable junglers other than Lee/J4/Vi, it might actually be exciting to see things like Elise, Evelyn, Sion, Nautilus who can be equally as entertaining. But because Lee Sin is OP and can nail them into the ground with ease, you don't see them and it creates stagnation. Ergo, Lee needs the nerf bat to increase #LCSBIGPLAYS and keep the viewer base entertained.

Linna ExcelFeb 6, 20156 votes

Also, when you added 100 gold to the jungle item to "help the guy who gets killed during an early invade", do you realize you're huring that guy more than the people who killed him? The guy who got the kill just got a nice bit of gold and xp, and will have much less trouble farming up to his 450 starting jungle item. The guy who died now has to go clear 3 camps with no leash and a late start and pray that the enemy jungler doesn't come back in for a free kill. How is this helping the guy who got killed at all if he isn't Lee Sin and able to farm just about whatever he wants?

This is riots problem: early gankers are bad for the jungle and the game, but they don't want AFK farmers because gankers bring in views with LCSbigplays. This is where riot goes full retard. The early gankers don't really need jungle items. They aren't hurt so much by needing an extra 100 gp. Jungle items are crap in PvP until you fully upgrade them... unless you get the devourer and need to AFK farm more.

Jungle items aren't the problem. Junglers that can gank bot at 2:30 and go 2-0 are.

UiruFeb 6, 20155 votes

Riot knows all of this.

They don't care.

That is the message they are broadcasting by continuing to allow Lee Sin to warp the game. They don't care. ~Uiru

lDontLiftIcarryFeb 6, 20153 votes

theres tons of viable junglers Its just they ruined the exp rates so any jungler based around level 6 ganks is complete shit right now. you're level 4 Mid lane is level 6 Best case senario unless you tax like 2-4 whole waves you won't be six even remotely close to the time they are And that should be the case But in this case its an exstremely bad scenario considering dragon is so fucking easy to kill having a champion with more pressure pre six means dragon snowballing can start at level 3-5 lol

its definately not j4 ruining the meta rofl. Its just riots obessession with making every jungler suffer with these bullshit exp gains the moment you see better gains is the exact same moment you see tanks start making an appearance Until then pre six strong junglers are going to be the power house forever.

Change exp rewards to match the amount of damage taken per camp. Wraith/gromp/krugs should give massive amounts of experience. Infact they probably do as much damage as a buff camps if you're smiting the buff camps to equal out the hp.

RogueWillFeb 6, 20151 votes

you shoudl revise your paths and masteries. Most of my junglers are lvl 5 by the time mid is lvl 6. the only time I'm lvl 4 is if the enemy mid got a kill and I didn't. Normally I'm even 1 level higher than bot up until lvl 11 or so. And although I play the overpowered junglers from time to time I also bring my favorites like Sejuani Diana Volibear that most people struggle with.

Only Play DariusFeb 6, 20152 votes

I remember season 4, where a skilled jungler would level up FASTER than midlane.

AFK PushFeb 6, 20153 votes

j4 is a problem right now sure, but lee sin has always been a problem. He is one of those champs like irelia that can't be nerfed by numbers alone, because the kit is just too damn good. Mobility, AS steroids, sustain, hard cc, soft cc, burst, more mobility etc. Lee sin will need a complete rework before he can ever be balanced.

Fox TangoFeb 7, 20152 votes

I wonder why they cant adjust gold values around jungler items according to the champion that uses it. Sort of like a an affinity that grants additional gold or give less based on the champion that uses it. Changing these values could be adjusted to grant gold to junglers in the lower tier on a path that helps them get in the game.

AFK PushFeb 7, 20152 votes

Has anyone seen the april frool champions spotlight for Lee sin? It is very funny, because they describe him as a "ranged, melee, tanky dps, assassin, mage, tank, support, jungler." Although, some of this is redundant, he actually can fit a lot of these descriptions to do his kit being so overloaded. Lee has a crap ton of burst making him assassin like, even though he can do this with only one damage item due to retarded scaling. This allows him to build super tanky and use his amazing kit to set up a bunch of kills for his team (support). Then of course due to his crazy mobility it is almost like he isn't even melee, because being melee is supposed to be a weakness to things like ranged; lee sin don't give a shit about ranged opponents because he can immediately reach them with his q or ward hop to them, eliminating the weakness of being melee by, in a way, making him psuedo ranged.

YukiTwoFeb 7, 20152 votes

Ok, I already know this all. Lee Sin is stupid and has way too much utility. What I didn't know was his Ultimates damage and cooldown. 600 base damage at 16 and a 200% Bonus AD ratio? That is just ridiculous!!! Like seriously. With just like an Infintiy Edge at lvl 16, he will do practically 800 dmg? Wtf? That is too strong for a 60 second cooldown. And Riot is not gonna even touch him because he is the LCS and Worlds favorite champ.

U4fyn2vZzWFeb 7, 20152 votes

117 upvotes, even Master Chief thinks Lee is broken.