But I get S+ on a champion and lose and I get 100.
Rito plz.
PS. nice job on the Vel Rework.
EDIT: The PS is not sarcasm. I genuinely like it. They listened to their community and they hardly touched him. They just gave him a reason to be picked over others.
Abyssphere9 votesWell I'm not sure what you want them to do. If they base it more on individual performance then you'll get people complaining that "people don't care about winning, they just want their KDA". We already saw that with the Hextech Crafting system. People don't want Riot to base mastery stuff on individual performance because it'll cause some people to care less about winning, so Riot have no choice but to make mastery very heavily tied to winning.
Aeszarck1 votesStrong points.
Mandaari6 votesIf actions that don't lead to winning are giving high mastery scores then Riot needs to change their mastery algorithm.
Abyssphere1 votesIf actions that don't lead to winning are giving high mastery scores then Riot needs to change their mastery algorithm.
But every action that can lead to winning can also lead to losing if done wrong or at an inappropriate time.
A Vayne could end a game with a huge CS value, which is great - that means she got farmed and had lots of gold. However, she could have ignored her team completely at useful times to get that CS value because she wanted a good mastery score. She did something that's good (got lots of farm), but she didn't actually contribute to them winning.
You can say similar things for a Lux who preserved her insane KDA by refusing to ever put herself in a dangerous situation, even though that would have been the best thing for her team. In extreme situations you could be defending your nexus from the enemy team but you decided to stay in the fountain so as not to add another death to your score, even though if you'd taken the risk you could have done something to stop the enemy team.
I don't know how you could ask Riot to differentiate between people with high KDAs because they were smart and people with high KDAs because they refused to do anything with any element of risk to it. There are some ways (i.e. the latter might have lower kill participation), but that can't account for everything.
Mandaari1 votesBecause you're assuming that the individual values are looked at in a vacuum. You're entirely right that looking at KDA, CA, tower kills, or anything else alone is not sufficient. There's no reason an algorithm can't look out those values in the context of the greater game: When was each CS scored? Where on the map? What other events happened around the same time?
Would it be easy? Hell no, it'd probably be incredibly difficult -- especially in a dynamic way that changes with the meta. Is it possible? Probably.
WarlockLaw1 votesImo winning should not give as much as it currently appears to, but there should be a bonus. Right now it seems to be a ludicrously high multiplier. Like a 20x multiplier. I feel it should instead just be a flat bonus. I also feel the bonus should be on par with how much you earn for an S(-) and less than what you earn for an S+ It's called 'champion mastery', not 'I won 5 games even though I did poorly so now I'm at rank 4'
YCitizenSnipsY1 votesSo then whats the point in a champion mastery system if the biggest criteria is how many shitters do you have on your team. I get the argument you win more on champions you are better with, but you can still get shit for mastery or a grade despite playing to the best of you ability because of a poor team.
Monkey D Luffy2 votesThat's because champion mastery is meant to be a sign of mastering that champion, the more you win the more likely you are to have gotten better, if you lose then it shows you need more time to improve, it's a balanced system and isn't really meant to be easy to get, it's just meant to acknowledge the champions you're really good at and really like to play.
doiminat0r36001 votesYet if you get a C- and then an S, doesn't that show it?
Monkey D Luffy1 votesNot really, you can grind for S if you really want to, winning is what truly shows it, yes you might do legitimately well but you win some you lose some in this kind of game, the way its set up is probably the best way to balance the pros and cons.
doiminat0r36001 votesYoure contradicting yourself. If you say its a sign of mastering the champion, then why does winning have to be the deciding factor? If you can play a champion well, then you should be able to get the same amount of XP regardless of if you won or lost.
Monkey D Luffy2 votesPlaying a champion well = winning.
Having a good score doesn't necessary mean you played well either.
I'm not contradicting myself... I'm not saying the system is perfect, you can play well and not get a lot of points, that's true, but if you deserve to get mastery fast then you'll win more than you lose.
The only near example I can think of is ranked.
If you truly play well you'll climb fast and lose some like everyone.
If you don't truly play well you'll win some and lose most.
It's impossible to balance this with an algorithm, as I said, the way it's set up is the best way to balance the pros and cons...
To be completely honest I made a post near identical to yours a few months back but then I realized it's just not that easy to balance...
So TLDR if you've gotten good with the champion you'll still win more than you lose getting mastery fast but if you haven't then you'll get mastery slower...
It's a complicated system but once you understand it you realize there's not really that many other ways to go.
doiminat0r36001 votesPlaying a champion well = winning.
How come I can get an S on Braum but we still lose? Because some champions can't carry. Most supports simply can't do anything because they lack damage. They are only good for peel or keeping allies alive.
I'm not contradicting myself... I'm not saying the system is perfect, you can play well and not get a lot of points, that's true, but if you deserve to get mastery fast then you'll win more than you lose.
Im not saying you think the system is perfect. Im saying that you think that playing someone well means winning. Which it doesn't. You're also saying that it's meant to be a sign of mastery. Someone can play 25 games and get C- on all of them and get to level 5 mastery. Someone else can play 50 games of a certain champion and get S on all of them but not get to level 5 because they lost a majority. You can get to level 5 if you play enough games. Doesn't matter how bad or good they are. If you lose and get an S, you get significantly less than if you won and got a C.
If you truly play well you'll climb fast and lose some like everyone. If you don't truly play well you'll win some and lose most.
Yes. But again, if you play well but you team mates fail to follow up, feed, or have no CC/Peel, then what can you do? Nothing. Just die and lose the game. You may play well and save your entire team, but its useless if they do nothing to help win the game.
So TLDR if you've gotten good with the champion you'll still win more than you lose getting mastery fast but if you haven't then you'll get mastery slower...
Yes. You do get mastery slower. But you didn't mention that in your comment at all. You just said that it's a level of skill. You can get far with a lot of bad games. You can get further with a lot of good games. Regardless of how you do, you get more for winning and less for losing.
Monkey D Luffy2 votesSigh this is just the classic elo hell argument in a different form, not continuing this debate...
doiminat0r36002 votesThis isn't even an elo hell argument. It can happen at literally any elo. You can choose not to continue the debate that YOU brought up.
This really shows how you think of the whole thing. It isn't always your fault when you cant carry a team. It isn't your fault when you get stuck with a role that physically cant carry. I am a support main. I know the struggle of having team mates that don't follow up and don't help me when I help them.
The point is, if you lose you get almost nothing. You don't seem to get that.
Monkey D Luffy2 votesHahaha you brought this up buddy, you made the post, expect people who don't agree with you.
Now look, I don't expect you to understand because if you were capable of seeing my point you would by now, your point is pretty obvious but it seems no matter what I say you don't understand mine, next time you lose your provisionals but still do well be sure to contact riot, I'm sure they'll promote you for free, oh and ask them to make every champ of yours level 5, they'll do that to, because hey, winning doesn't mean anything! NOOOO.
I'm COMPLETELY done with this argument if you think there's a better way to balance the champion mastery system then let's hear one, let me know a system that can't be abused and is fair for everyone with the least cons available, go on, I'm sure you're better than all of the planners at Riot who spent months making the system in the first place, as I said I used to share your opinion until I realized how bad it'd be, the way the system is set up now promotes the healthiest gameplay.
Oh and as for the Elo hell comment, I was just comparing the two, it's obviously not Elo hell it's just very similar to the " I did well but my teams did this etc etc" argument.
doiminat0r36003 votessigh
This is a disappointment. Your salt level was ticking just a little past expected. I did see your point. I don't see why winning matters in your own rank. Maybe it would if Solo Que existed, but it doesn't. So winning should have no influence on how you play a champion.
I see your sarcasm and I raise you 2 sarcasms. Maybe Rito will unfairly match you up so you can get your champs to level 5 as well. That will work definitely :P.
I can't see a way that the champion mastery system would be abused. It doesn't even have an impact on anything other than a statistic of how much and how well you've played a champion. Not how much your team carried you to victory.
A good way to balance the current system (since you asked) is give XP based on how well you did, scaling with XP level. So when you are level 2, you will have to play 2x the amount of games to get to level 3 than it did to get to level 2 from one. You would get the same amount of XP based on how well you did reguardless of if you won or not.
Monkey D Luffy1 voteshoobleyjoobala soobla hoo haa big red car
HeadHonchkrow1 voteswtf lol
Thrëat1 votes[{quoted}](name=Monkey D Luffy,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zukAqAkR,comment-id=000700000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-23T20:17:25.273+0000)
Oh and as for the Elo hell comment, I was just comparing the two, it's obviously not Elo hell it's just very similar to the " I did well but my teams did this etc etc" argument.
That is actually a valid argument. It is possible to do well and have your team be too heavy to carry. I'm Diamond 4 and recently leveled an account to 30. I win the vast majority of my games and do better than everyone, both teams, regardless of win/lose. Just because you are better than the other 9 players in the match doesn't mean you are going to win. If you are better than all 5 of the enemy by 2 tiers worth of skill it is actually meaningless if your 4 team mates are peforming at even 1 tier lower than your team mates. This game isn't really designed for 1v5ing. Now, with that said, those that say they can't climb because of team mates are obviously full of it since smurfs can climb no problem.
But as far as champion mastery goes, it makes no sense to tie how much you gain to how your TEAM performed. It isn't TEAM mastery, it is CHAMPION mastery. If they want us to have another stat that grades us on how well we perform with team mats then they should add that in and not just be lazy and tie it in with champion mastery.
Monkey D Luffy1 votes"Now, with that said, those that say they can't climb because of team mates are obviously full of it since smurfs can climb no problem." That's the part I was intending at getting at.
doiminat0r36001 votesAnd the rest of it was what I was getting at. See the picture?
Monkey D Luffy1 voteshoogley doogley
doiminat0r36002 votesOk so we have peaked at your immaturity? Ok. Nice end to a useless conversation.
Monkey D Luffy1 votesgooba gooba gobbla
Monkey D Luffy1 votesNah
doiminat0r36001 votesreplies to own comment. Twice.
Monkey D Luffy1 votesXD
LegacyDAP1 votesLove the P.S. that has nothing to do with the post. :P
On a side note. Yeah that's ridiculously stupid they do that. XP should be rewarded for grade and w/l, not just w/l.
doiminat0r36002 votesI actually like the vel rework. Its one of the seemingly few times riot listened to the community and nobody seems to care. Although I do dislike how the grade system is implemented.
LegacyDAP2 votesActually, in a way Riot listened to the community by barely touching him. But everyone already said they didn't want a rework.
doiminat0r36001 votesSo they didn't touch him. Because they listened to the community screaming not to touch him. They just made a minor change to his passive to give you a reason to pick him. Which is a very good thing.
EvilRabbitt1 votesTo his passive and his ult. Don't forget the ult.
doiminat0r36001 votesThe passive was still a small numbers change. Just a new ratio and upped base values. The idea is still the same. That still isnt the main reason you pick vel.
EvilRabbitt1 votesI use him for the W/E/W/Q combo. So much burst owo
doiminat0r36001 votesYou gotta use the E first. E/W/Q/R combo. It keeps them in place and guarantees at-least 4 stacks of your passive. If you use your ult, you just need one more hit in order to proc another passive in addition to the 3 you did with your ult and the 1 you did before. That's 5 passive stacks.
EvilRabbitt1 votesI do that one too :). I just like my full drop. Little more difficult to land though :C
YCitizenSnipsY6 votesWell its supposed to be grading you on an individual performance, yet one of the biggest factors in your grade is the out come from the team as a collective. I get that you should be winning more on champions you get higher mastery with, but the actual difference in points you earn just by winning or losing is to much.
Quepha1 votesYeah, max grade you can get in a lost game should be a B at best.
Thrëat2 votesYeah, max grade you can get in a lost game should be a B at best.
Na, it is possible to play perfect but still lose if your team is heavy enough. The Exp part just shouldn't be altered due to win/loss. A player that got an S+ obviously did better than a player that got an C-. If the S+ lost and the C- won it is because the C- got carried while the S+ had unfortunate team mates.
Quepha1 votesNa, it is possible to play perfect but still lose if your team is heavy enough. The Exp part just shouldn't be altered due to win/loss. A player that got an S+ obviously did better than a player that got an C-. If the S+ lost and the C- won it is because the C- got carried while the S+ had unfortunate team mates.
I have never, in my life, seen anyone play a perfect game of league. I mean from bronze to challenger, pro games from LCS to world's, not a single player in a single game who couldn't have optimized their play or strategy in some way by looking at all the information available to them and considering the outcomes. Play better than me? almost always. Play better than most players? in pro games definitely. Play the best in the world? in some situations, yes. Play perfectly? Zero mistakes? Zero teamplay or communication errors? Not once in winning or losing games.
Thrëat1 votesI have never, in my life, seen anyone play a perfect game of league. I mean from bronze to challenger, pro games from LCS to world's, not a single player in a single game who couldn't have optimized their play or strategy in some way by looking at all the information available to them and considering the outcomes. Play better than me? almost always. Play better than most players? in pro games definitely. Play the best in the world? in some situations, yes. Play perfectly? Zero mistakes? Zero teamplay or communication errors? Not once in winning or losing games.
Add realism when reading posts, this should be common sense. I'm not saying perfect as in being a literal God and seeing everything, knowing everything. I meant it is possible to have done the absolute best that you could have done and still lose if you have 4 team mates that are getting severely stomped by the other team. Even if you are able to 1v1, 1v2 and even 1v3 anyone on their team, in the end there are still games that are straight up uncarriable - unless the enemy has a huge flaw in their team comp and you happen to be playing a champion that can work around it.
Quepha1 votesAdd realism when reading posts, this should be common sense. I'm not saying perfect as in being a literal God and seeing everything, knowing everything. I meant it is possible to have done the absolute best that you could have done and still lose if you have 4 team mates that are getting severely stomped by the other team. Even if you are able to 1v1, 1v2 and even 1v3 anyone on their team, in the end there are still games that are straight up uncarriable - unless the enemy has a huge flaw in their team comp and you happen to be playing a champion that can work around it.
Players should still focus more on winning the game than padding out their champion mastery grade. I don't want players on my team thinking "well, this game is lost and isn't worth trying to win at this point, but if I don't surrender I can at least pad my k/d/a and cs to get more mastery points at the end."
Thrëat1 votesPlayers should still focus more on winning the game than padding out their champion mastery grade. I don't want players on my team thinking "well, this game is lost and isn't worth trying to win at this point, but if I don't surrender I can at least pad my k/d/a and cs to get more mastery points at the end."
I'd take someone that is willing to fight it out and pad their KDA ( Which means doing good, btw ) than someone that is doing poorly and wants to surrender any day of the week in ranked.
For Champion Mastery to actually work the whole system would have to be redone in order to measure actual skill with the champion, rather than just comparing data to an average and grading off that. This is difficult though, since some champions would be hard to grade. For instance, tracking hit % with abilities could be useful in measuring skill, but at the same time, some abilities are spammed for utility, which would put the % hit low. Nocturne's Q is an example of that. It is a powerfull skillshot and a good Nocturne will hit it a lot more and under better circumstances than a bad Nocturne. A Nocturne that is capable of landing that skill shot is obviously better than a Nocturne that can not. But it is an ability, that with blue, can be spammed for faster movement around your jungle for faster clearing ( Of course only if your jungle entrances are warded so you know you aren't giving away your position with the dusk you leave behind )
ColdBlood1 votesthe idea is the object of the game is to win. by being in the game you contributed to the win. less of a grade cus you made tons of mistakes, but in the end your team won, your actions influenced that, you learned more. stomping people for 20 mins doesnt take alot of mastery really
LordGeovanni1 votesdoesnt matter how good you were individually that doesnt automatically mean you worked together with your team to get the win and even then you didnt win if you get the same or more for loseing as you do winning whats the point. the champion gradeing system isnt perfect
doiminat0r36001 votesYes. Let me collaborate with my 3 man premade on my team. Because that happens.
LordGeovanni1 votesyou dont need a pre-made team to collaborate i never play with anyone on my friends list from one of my local fb league groups because when i did play with them i found out they are average league dicks who btch and cry when anyone tells them what they did wrong. This is a game i played 2 years ago with complete strangers basically crying in the lobby because of the mindless go mid fight the fed enemy team strategy everyone has and lose the game if you lose 1 fight. Got them to listen to my strategies and i split push to victory while my team did the important job of keeping the enemy off of me.
Micbran1 votesAlso kinda contributes to the "gotta win at all costs" disease that has been recently affecting League in normals and URF.
tainteddaze1 votesi thought vel was good without the rework. But now I am happier cause they buff one of my favorite champions to play to begin with. Only thing sucks is now every other person going to try to get on my waifu