Their needs to be FAIRNESS with Gold making support items…

Lwnt · 2014-10-29T16:16:30.927Z

I feel like its really unfair that the passive heal on scales with the health of support especially tanky support who gets so much health at late game. While and get no such scaling in their passive. The healing from passive tend to feel like nothing in late game because you have like more than 2000 health and all you get is 10 health per minion dead. Why not allow it to scale into late game like 15 to 20 health per minion death. I say this item should scale with level because supports who get this item tend to be squishy or tanky supports. The damage from + 15 magic damage per charge becomes like nothing in late game because players have have more magic resistance and health and health regen and life steal and spell vamp and heals to just ignore the little +15 bonus damage. Why not allow the damage to scale with late game. Maybe with ability power as it is usually found on pokey support. This can help maintain the pokey ness of support but of course it has to scale with a really small ap ratio or else all mage wiil buy it. I feel like people will complain about this idea due to the part that mages will monopolize it but keep in mind it is based on the number of charge you are storing. So once you finish all three charge the bonus dame wont come on anymore and the charges have a cooldown of 10 seconds. If that is hard to make then make the scaling go with level and let the bonus climb up to a max of 40 or 45 or 50. Future note: Ok I understand why the actives shouldnt scales and why FOTM should scale thanks to you guys. But no one explained why the passives shouldn't scale. That still unfair. A NEW IDEA IN SUPPORT ITEMS You allow jungle items to have 1 ward to stored into them such as and . Why not allow these support items to be ungraded into one more items where you can store up to three wards (or 1 or 2 if its to make it balance). When I play supports like Janna, Nami, Lulu, sona and soraka I dont want the bonus health from sight stone which benefits tanky supports more. Soraka in which the item hurts her the most because her heal is based on 10% of max health. Why not allows us the option to not get the bonus health. The way it will work is: will not contain the bonus health but just the ward active. To balance this the price needs to be lower and the price for needs to be higher to maintain the bonus health the item is going to give. Then should be allow to combine with or or to make a new upgraded item for each one. Which will allow support to have an extra spot for another item that will benefit them more. If people do want the then players would combine and and of course the price would need to change to balance it. Also if you want you can get both and but I see no point in it because you can only put a max of 3 wards. Or Riot can change the rule and make it so that you can only buy one of the 4 active wards item like they did with the gold income items. Well this is my idea and tell me what you think. If you say its bad explain why and give a way how you can fix it. Thanks

Lumus AvatarOct 29, 20141 votes

item 3092 Gives mana regen which allows you to sustain in lane because you can be throwing out spells and be getting back the mana. He's not refering to HP sustain.

LwntOct 29, 20141 votes

It gives very little mana regen read the description it doesnt really help a lot. Remember Frostfang is the item you will have in laning phase not Frost Queen Claim. The item gives 5 mana per 5 seconds which is 1 mana per second. That doesnt help help when you are loosing 60 mana to 80 mana per skill. Also their an idea that if someone where to land a hit using a charge they should get mana in return. That a great idea that should be implemented what you think.

Deep Terror NamiOct 29, 20141 votes

Mana sustain is of great importance when you use a healing champion. HP regen is of no importance when you can heal...unless you're Soraka.

LwntOct 29, 20141 votes

But the mana sustain is very small on frost fang its 5 mana per 5 seconds which is 1 mana per second. It not really a big sustain.

Deep Terror NamiOct 29, 20141 votes

It doesn't sound like much, but until you pick up Chalice, a little MP5 will often mean the difference between that one heal or CC allowing your ADC to get a triple kill from a failed gank, or feeding the enemy. Honestly, that 1 heal or CC the MP5 gave you turns a fight more often than not. I don't think you're giving it the credit it deserves. But, if you don't find the gold items suitable to your style, you can grab Doran's Shield or something else; it's not blasphemy for a support to do that.

LwntOct 29, 20141 votes

but until you pick up Chalice, a little MP5

Which is where all your mana sustain is actually coming from.

I am not saying the item is terrible all I am saying that item should be fairer into late game allow the bonus damage to scale. like the heal does in FOTM.

Deep Terror NamiOct 29, 20141 votes

I know I said "FQC" the final tier 3 gold item, but was just so I didn't have to say each item. Was really talking about the tier 1 and 2; I don't expect anybody that needs mana regen to rush FQC before getting a Chalice. As a matter of fact, I don't expect anybody to get FQC till the 4th or 5th item.

While the effectiveness of the FQC and ToA lines do not scale with anything, their actives are powerful at any point in the game. Talisman especially; it doesn't have a scaling component, but once you leave laning phase and start doing a lot of 5 man grouping, its Active component effectiveness multiplies because it of course is an AoE buff. Frost Queen's Claim becomes more effective as the enemy groups together more. Face of the Mountain, however, does not affect the enemy any more or less for a 5v5 than it does a 2v2 (it does do a little AoE damage, but it's pretty negligible. Though, I have stolen a kill with it protecting our jungler lol). FotM is most effective during laning, and mostly just gives you some HP when you aren't laning and the CD is down while the other 2 have much more passive benefit in that situation.

LwntOct 31, 20141 votes

Thx I understand why the active shouldnt scale. The passive of FOTM is still unfair as it scales into late game. Its not some health FOTM gives: Killing a minion by any means heals yourself and the nearest allied champion for 50 (+1% of your maximum health) health.

While the others get no damage scaling or health back scaling in their passive.

Deep Terror NamiOct 31, 20141 votes

They don't need to scale because they are effective at any level...this is my point.

Skia AsteriOct 29, 20141 votes

Mana sustain is of great importance when you use a healing champion. HP regen is of no importance when you can heal...unless you're Soraka.

Nomad's Medallion gives the same MP5 as Frost Fang. Ancient Coin gives 1 more MP5 than Spellthief's Edge.

Sightless66Oct 29, 20141 votes

"where the passive and active on FOTM scale into late game making it stronger depending on how much health the support have. I feel that is unfair."

It does this because it has to in order to match up with the other two. Frost Queen and Talisman not only have actives that are significantly stronger for making plays, but they also have actives that don't need to scale. Movement speed reductions and boosts are valuable early, mid and late game. FOTM gives health. Health has very different values in the early and late game. If FOTM didn't scale, it would be either broken early or useless late (or both).

Talisman and FQC do their job without scaling no matter the time of game, and FOTM needs scaling to do its job. They all get what they need to be useful at all stages (Even though Talisman and FQC are significantly better in the late game because of the CC nature of their actives, FOTM still scales well enough to compete). That seems fair to me. If anything is unfair, it's how FOTM pretty much loses its gold generation aspect later in the game once your teammates have waveclear.

NavaruneOct 29, 20141 votes

Think about who normally grabs the Relic line, though. If you are able to nab the siege minion in 90% of the waves while in lane, and get mostly melee minions on your other charge(s), FotM has done it's job in gold generation at 30 minutes (or much sooner if you've nabbed multiple assists). Typically, on FotM supports--aka tanky supports--you have two defensive items in addition to FotM, T2 boots, and SS. Traditionally, defensive items are less expensive than damage items (Zhonya's and Liandry's) and slightly more costly than utility items (such as Mikael's and Twin Shadows) in the support itemization. This falls right in line with the type of supports who purchase the gold generation item lines: harassers, who usually purchase the Spellthief line (and thus the highest potential gold gain), more often build Zhonya's, and utility supports, who often start Ancient Coin, specialize in items with great actives like Twin Shadows. Tank supports build off the Relic line and itemize defensive items, both of which fall in between their relative counterparts.

I understand that this is a gross generalization, but the idea stands firmly I think. FotM loses its gold generation potential at a point where gold generation shouldn't be an issue for its holder, just like FQC (which has a higher risk involved but with greater reward). Talisman never loses its gold generating power, particularly in the example you gave regarding FotM where your teammates have exceptional waveclear, but its goals aren't as high and its reward is typically smaller than the other two lines (but with a more level average across the board).

All in all, I think support itemization is in a really good spot right now. You get to choose two (or three, if you're not saving your 6th slot for a pink you greedy bastard :-P) items with combat stats or actives that let you actually contribute in teamfights or in pick/split push scenarios.

Sightless66Oct 29, 20142 votes

Tanks still benefit from items throughout the game and most of them have a good gold flow. The support line of items is meant to replicate the gold flow that any other champion would ordinarily get. The relic line fails to do that very well after a certain point in the game.

Do I think that's a problem? Not really. I'm just pointing out that it's probably the thing that most qualifies as being "unfair" between all the items.

Also, the supports who get coin are the least gold-reliant of all of them. I can play Janna with money or completely broke. Same with Blitz. To say that it gives them gold they need isn't accurate at all. I don't think that the argument that some support need more gold is a valid justification for the gold differential, particularly since from a design perspective fixing the gold flow problems would clear up a significant frustration and could easily be addressed with number tuning. From a design standpoint, I do think that FotM is poorly designed because of the way its active falls off. It exists in a fine balance state, so that's easily ignored, but it's still shoddy design to have a key component of an item cease functioning after a certain point of the game.

NavaruneOct 30, 20141 votes

There are several aspects of the game (particularly in early game champions) that cease to be effective at a certain stage of the game, and I don't necessarily see that as negative in and of itself.

As I understand the gp10 item lines, all of them are designed to be a sort of "jack of all trades" item, for lack of a better way to describe it. Their slot efficiency is great in that they all provide CDR alongside relevant stats (AP is appreciated by utility scaling, health is great for tanks, and regen is underrated) to the support without overloading in either stats or cost.

Or, perhaps I'm just from the previous era where supports had very little in the way of income and were expected to do as much or than they do now with less gold, and I appreciate all the incremental ticks of gold I can get lol.

Sightless66Oct 30, 20141 votes

There are no other instances of item uses I can think of that completely lose functionality as the game goes on. Some things may be more effective than others, but none I can think of except FotM completely stop working as the game goes on. It's annoying to be sitting on 4 stacks for a very long time with no way to proc them. This isn't necessary from a balance perspective, so it's annoying from a design perspective.

Your second paragraph is true, but I don't see the relevancy to the current discussion.

I appreciate gold ticks too. I don't appreciate when I can't get the ones that I'd like to.

NavaruneOct 30, 20141 votes

The second paragraph was targeted at the original post saying that current iterations of gp10 support items are insufficient in their current state and not necessarily relevant to our discussion around FotM specifically.

I can appreciate your stance on FotM being less viable for income on its procs in the later part of the game. Once upon a time I argued that FotM would actually be better served with a 2gp10 or even a 3gp10 passive (at T3 and not on either earlier versions) instead of the CDR. I think this is especially true when tank supports often opt for Frozen Heart (20% CDR) and/or Spirit Visage (10% CDR) as well as an option in Locket (10% CDR). However, this argument falls weak when you compare other supports who build items with similar CDR passives and retain it on their relevant gp10 items as well, but I would argue that tank supports generally rely less on CDR for their effectiveness since much of what they are intended to do is soak damage.

Sightless66Oct 30, 20141 votes

"I can appreciate your stance on FotM being less viable for income"

It's not less viable for income, it's poorly designed because of the nature of its income passive. Big difference. Viability is a measure of power, and power isn't a problem, design is. It has a part of the item that stops functioning as the game goes on. This isn't necessary, and the item could easily be rebalanced around having constant gold income.

I don't agree about the gp5 and cdr thing you said at all. Tanks need CDR. Tanking damage by itself is not useful. You have to be doing something. That is why tanks either have high CC (which CDR significantly increases the effectiveness of) or they have base damages to facilitate the building of CDR. Also, just adding a gp5 aspect wouldn't fix that the core monetary part stops working as the game goes on.

It's badly designed. I stick to that.

LwntOct 31, 20142 votes

That true it is annoying when you constantly have stacks for a long time. But the key thing you are forgetting is that when you do get to kill a minion the gold you get is a lot more then what it was in the laning phase. As time goes by the amount gold you get from minion kill increases.

Sightless66Oct 31, 20141 votes

That doesn't really equal out at all numerically.

LwntOct 31, 20141 votes

Thx now I understand why the actives shouldnt scale for the other two and the why FQTM should scale. But why not the passive scale its unfair that that the amount of healing the passive does increase throughout the game. While the other two gets no passive scaling.

Sightless66Oct 31, 20141 votes

Yeah, that one is bit more up for debate. I guess you could say it's because the talisman regen is somewhat constant later in the game where FotM falls of heavily as the active falls off, but that's not really the best argument. It just seems like a kind of throwaway thing attached to it.

Their needs to be FAIRNESS with Gold making support items and also add something NEW to it.

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