Junglers are making less money than support players?????????????????

Lwnt·Dec 2, 2014·31 votes·4,727 views

After playing good amount of game after season 5 I notice that the junglers are actually making less money than the support. As a support player myself I always check the amount of gold I have compare to my other teammate. Usually before season 4 its usually me the support who makes the least amount of gold (Or someone else due to them losing so hard in the lane). Now I am starting to see that junglers are making less than me. Does that mean jungler roles are actually just like a secondary support? Where you dont need gold or items to be strong?

87 Comments

DrCyanideDec 2, 201411 votes

On the PBE they're adjusting the gold gained from jungle monsters, yielding more gold if you have item 1039 , increasing that value when you upgrade to item 3715 item 3713 item 3711 item 3706 .

Since you need summoner 11 to get item 1039 , that should limit the bonus gold to junglers.

Duke AnaxDec 2, 20143 votes

slight correction: the same gold they put on item 1039 they took from the camps, only the updates will give an actual increase in gold gain.

kunkudunkDec 3, 20143 votes

Yes but they did that because currently other roles are getting much more gold than junglers by taking just one jungle champ every so often and farming their own lane. Thus, the jungle changes actually benefited other lanes a lot since the camps are worth a lot more gold(until they change it). All the old jungle items from season four had gold boosting effects for jungle minions. They did away with that since the camps were worth more gold, but now laners just take the camps for the huge sum of gold.

Malix FarwinDec 3, 20142 votes

On the PBE they're adjusting the gold gained from jungle monsters, yielding more gold if you have , increasing that value when you upgrade to .

Since you need to get , that should limit the bonus gold to junglers.

The problem that i think will happen(i hope i am wrong) is that i think eventually laners will start taking smite with the new changes. I really hope i am wrong about this but i am trying to rationalize why they wont eventually

OnegarionDec 3, 20141 votes

But for a lot of laners there isn't much of a reason to take the jungle items or smite. I really don't see them being taken any more than they already are since you are wasting an item slow for a smite that doesn't really benefit you. Many mid laners would miss out on it when ignite would just be better AND it lets you build an item. The only reason champs like WW are taking sabre into lane is because it is actually better for him than ignite with him getting a lot of hits in a short amount of time. He can use the passive, but trailblazer and poachers have no use and stalkers blades slow isn't all that great for a laner when ignite would deal more damage overall. So i think your hopes will be right, but we will have to wait and see.

N3mO06Dec 2, 20145 votes

I noticed also that junglers have less exp then laner. In my case I was rengar 1/0/4 with around 60 cs and in mid lane the enamy's team had a jayce 0/4/2 with 100 cs and He had 2 lv more then me

-Edit : Taking several Other matches in the jungle I have had the same thing : I finished every game with a positive score, but I'm always 1-2 levels below solo laner. But the jungle should not give the same experience of solo laner ?? I might think that this jungle is made to gank more instead only to farm, but what you can do if now exist only champ with blink and dash and therefore quite difficult to take ??? And even if I could get them what would happen if the enemy was a zed with 2 levels above ?? or a fizz ?? I would die and they would go under the tower

BM GoyuDec 2, 201412 votes

Dude I'm so tired of this too. You can farm your fucking brain out for 10 minutes as jungle and you will still be 1-2 levels behind every laner and don't even get me started on gold. You blow so much gold on pots in a jungle that doesn't give shit for gold using items with no sustain. After you buy your jungle item you get a power spike that still leaves you miles behind any laner, stat cost efficiency notwithstanding.

The jungle is just in a really frustrating spot right now and is seriously no fun to play at all.

WooBeeWooDec 2, 20141 votes

With you all the way dude. I don't care what champ I pick I am not enjoying the new jung its straight up just a frustrating mess. And forget about having an influence on the game because all you are ever trying to do is stay caught up much less get ahead.

Raja ChachkiDec 3, 20142 votes

Warwick

awrsmthDec 5, 20141 votes

Jax

D rokDec 2, 20142 votes

I'm loving the new jungle in a lot of ways, but the experience yielded seems WAY too low. I tend to play the tankier utility junglers (maokai, rammus, zac, nautilus, sej, etc.), and even with substantially more farming than pre-patch, I'm way underfed in terms of experience. Trying to keep up with the other lanes is becoming very stressful.

Heaven forbid a couple of your ganks go badly - You'll have less exp than the support.

awrsmthDec 3, 20143 votes

honestly i disagree, yes we are miles behind the laners b ut ive been jungling jax since the update and ive been having so much fun and somehow even being levels behind i manage to still kick ***. granted i have to be more careful due to lower health but my damage is so high that i can handle it just fine. i dont think that the jungle is in a weird place i just think that it is redefining what a jungler is. now you actually have to be more skilled to exell where as in the past anyone could do it now you actually have to know what you are doing.

BM GoyuDec 3, 20143 votes

I guess that's the issue I'm trying to raise. I don't think that I should have to display platinum mechanics in order to remain a gold jungler with a gold team. This jungle is antifun and not rewarding to play in. There's no playstyle that is clearly rewarding for a jungler, every decision feels punishing. You stay in jungle and farm? You burn hella money on pots and don't have gold even close to that of laners, plus you're two levels behind. You go to lane and gank? You fall behind in farm and probably have to recall, having gotten only a flash for your trouble. Recall... again... you've already recalled 5 times because you're always so low from farming. You gank top? Say goodbye to dragon. You gank bot? If your lane is already winning, you get a kill and take drag. But there's my biggest problem right there. Junglers are super effective in a game YOU ARE ALREADY WINNING and next to useless in an even game or a game from behind. That's obnoxious. I want to be able to impact the game, that's what a jungler is for. And right now that is just too hard to do because you have to do it with low xp and on a budget. Plus people take your camps with their ridiculously long spawn timers, and rage and flame if you tax lane. Fuck this jungle man. Seriously, just fuck it.

awrsmthDec 5, 20141 votes

You have valid points but it is possible to play and influence the game even from behind if you play correctly. also on a side-note i never use any pots what-so-ever in jungle. never have and never will.

WickipediaDec 5, 20141 votes

Totally agreed with 90% of this statement. I'm also having issue with staying above 60% hp for gank after taking blue and red... ridiculous to farm especially when the item money is raised so now you have less pot to start with. Jungler cannot change the game course if lanes are behind... we end up getting the blame for trying to gank and fail. And now WW is banned 90% of the time because he's one of the VERY few that can maintain HP in the jungle... this new jungle system really need an update. Season 3 > 4 awesome, 4 > 5... Im waiting for a reason to come back to LOL.

Raja ChachkiDec 3, 20142 votes

um.....I hope you know that mid laners are pretty much ALWAYS ahead of EVERYONE else. Laning phase that is just how it is(unless they feed/get fed). After laning though it's all fair game. And you are also SUPPOSED to get less CS than laners because jungle camps are worth a lot more(xp and gold wise). They hit harder for a better reward.

BM GoyuDec 3, 20142 votes

Hey there Hudson. Yes I am aware that solo laners are generally always going to be ahead of anyone else in xp. The thing about the jungle xp disparity is this: while they hit harder, give more gold and xp, there isn't enough time to stay even close to even with laners. The long spawn timers, and necessity of buying pots ensures that you won't have much gold. The same goes for experience: the current iteration of the jungle works in theory, but only in theory. Any attempt to leave the jungle to try to influence the game is really risky because you're just always behind and failure means being even more behind.

So anyway unit for unit, YES, jungle camps are worth more xp and gold than creeps, and that is as it should be. But over time there is currently FAR more gold available to laners and while I believe that there should be more in lane than the jungle (which was always my problem with feral flare: less game interaction is rewarded with more gold), I don't believe the disparity should be this vast. Furthermore, people want ganks, they are an important part of laning phase. But the risk/reward ratio is currently so stacked against junglers that it's just frustrating as hell. You want to gank, but you're too low from doing the past few camps. You want to gank but you know that you'll probably just burn flash and meanwhile you're losing valuable xp and gold. You want to gank but you don't have any power from items so you're dueling potential, already low due to being 2 levels behind your target, is really low.

Anyway, I don't disagree with you in theory, but in practice, junglers are currently very low impact and always broke and it's just not fun. In my opinion the junglers need either to have their gold passives back on their items (conservation) so they have an incentive to gank without losing gold, or to just make the camps worth more/spawn faster. Beyond that, there NEEDS to be some sort of sustain option in the jungle. I really hate only being able to choose one of like three or four jungle champs, 2 or 3 of which will get banned anyway.

MakersFDec 3, 20141 votes

The problem is that the junglers have different patterns, either farming or ganking. Options:

Set gold and experience so that for a average ganking jungler gets as much as laners--> Feral Flame like junglers will be the only junglers played, as they farm no stop and thus will have more gold/exp than laners (since you balanced around someone who ganks sometimes instead of farming). They stay AFK farming all match with little risk, then come out of the jungle and are ahead of everyone else and get pentakill. I think we all agree this is not a great option
Set gold/exp so that no stop faming junglers get as much as laners --> now the second you are not in the jungler farming you are getting behind the laners, so you need to be successful to a certain degree in order to be on par.

Can you see problem?

Possible solutions can be to get more exp than laners for no stop farming but less gold (so hypercarries who need items are not overwhelming, while the other category which need levels more than items are on par).
Give more exp/gold for kills/assists if you have smite or the jungling item (so that you need less successful ganks to be on par)
Something along the lines

BTW, I'm actually ok in the jungle now. I'm usually on par with laners with money and really little behind in lvls, especially because i try to gank a lot using a tanky jungler

BM GoyuDec 3, 20141 votes

I think the issues were pretty much what you stated, and the long spawn timers and tougher creeps are riot's response to the questions raised by the perhaps overly successful season 4 jungler.

And I think it makes sense. Make the creep spawn timers longer so that a jungler cannot afk farm, because low game interaction should not be rewarded. But that's the thing, they've created a situation where it's basically PVE to jungle because you spend so much time recalling and you're always behind and ganking is so risky for relatively little reward.

I had that same thought as you about an xp/gold bonus for kills/assists. I think it would be a really great way to reward active play. You could also make it scale, or maybe have a stack system so that you can't abuse it and become a runaway jungler, killing everyone because you're level ten while they are 6. Maybe it stacks on camp kills up to a cap and then you consume the stacks on champs.

I dunno. All I can say is I really hate the jungle right now. I understand Riot's reasoning, but it's just not fun at all to play in as is. I thought season four was pretty close, but they didn't create a space for tank junglers because the items sucked, and feral flare created a really stupid pattern of play. Personally I think they just need to give tank jungle items an aoe active to help them blow up the camp and stay up to speed with faster clearing junglers, and give us our gold generation back.

Hullabaloo907Dec 2, 20144 votes

I think a lot of people are still starting on the buff camps, which puts you behind early.

junglerboy16Dec 3, 20142 votes

Either get a leash @ Gromp or krugs, move on to the near buff, do a small camp while waiting for smite, then do the other buff, Or get a hard leash at either buff w/o smiting, go to second buff, clear a small camp and gank. You should only start buffs first if you want to gank really early.

AlëkDec 3, 20142 votes

I think a lot of people are still starting on the buff camps, which puts you behind early.

yup. its mainly that people don't get the new jungle yet. If you start blue, you should start Gromp. If you start Red start krugs.

Hullabaloo907Dec 3, 20141 votes

i have heard about people starting wolves, but i have never tried it because i never saw the reason to do so

Dr Clueless PhDDec 2, 20143 votes

Not really. The new jungle items are really damn cost-efficient if memory serves, which means they can get the stats they need on a low budget. Also, people are still learning the new jungle, so it's not optimized yet. Give it some time for people to figure out proper clearing and pathing.

BM GoyuDec 2, 20145 votes

The jungle is still in a weird place though. While the jungle items themselves are really cost efficient (like, really cost efficient), they give you strength in a phase of the game that you are still stuck in this PVE mode, trying to get some damned farm and stay alive without any itemized sustain. Ganking is really risky, and even with those stat efficient items, you're ganking people who are usually 2 levels above you (unless ganking bot), and if that gank doesn't pan out you're even more behind in levels. Even going mid to burn a summoner is risky because you can really fall behind in xp, and just fucking forget about ganking top. If you gank top you're probably throwing the game by giving up dragon. Anyway, I've gotten off topic, just wanted to point out that getting money from ganks is usually not worth trying.

The issue that I wanted to talk about was that the jungle items give you an early game power spike in a context that makes it extremely difficult to use early game power, and after that, you simply don't get enough gold to buy more items beyond the initial item. Junglers are extremely low-impact and gold starved at the moment, and it all comes back to camps being vicious as fuck for low gold and xp, and on a silly long timers.

TiropatDec 3, 20141 votes

You know i just realized why counter jungling is so effective now. I means you will be on the level of bot lane and your opponet will be weaker then the support.

FeathermaneDec 2, 20143 votes

As they should: PvP > PvE.

XtremeyDec 2, 201413 votes

As they should: PvP > PvE.

if you can call a cho gath vs ryze lane pvp

OnegarionDec 2, 201411 votes

Farmville has been apart of league for a while. Its a nice mini game they added isn't it lol

The SoulforgedDec 3, 20142 votes

Farmville has been apart of league for a while. Its a nice mini game they added isn't it lol

Does anyone remember the tutorial calling killing jungle mobs "sidequests".

OnegarionDec 3, 20141 votes

I remember. Gave you a pat on the back when you went into the jungle to kill the camps. THen moved on to the next one. Good times lol

MrSexyHoboDec 3, 20143 votes

wanted to bump the thread and say that i find the new jungle antifun.

being pigeonholed into using just a handful of junglers or struggling to clear jungle camps for the first half of the game then playing catchup for the last half of the game is not a part of my "end game fantasy".

balance team must have been fking high

BM GoyuDec 3, 20141 votes

Antifun. It is totally and absolutely antifun. I wouldn't care if this jungle were perfectly balanced, because it's ruining the game with how antifun it is.

Skia AsteriDec 2, 20142 votes

Not always, but it can happen if you do poorly at farming the jungle and fail at ganks.

See: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1652107070/218693738?tab=overview

And jungle items are not much more efficient than normal top level items in terms of stats. Case in point the Magus item cost more than Morellonomicon, and has the same stats sans mana regen.

BM GoyuDec 2, 20144 votes

The jungle items are cost efficient as hell, but they need to be because there's no gold in the jungle, and junglers are expected to buy items beyond the first. Getting a great deal on one jungle item doesn't really mean anything because the items after it are still just as expensive and the gold income from the jungle is both static and low. They only way to get gold as a jungler now is ganks that are risky as fuck because failing will leave you so behind in xp. It's just really not fun to play the jungle.

Balance issues aside, as a game, League of Legends should strive to be fun, and this preseason is just not fun.

shppyDec 3, 20141 votes

The jungle items are cost efficient as hell.

The jungle items have horrible cost efficiency. 2250 gold for a Morello's without mana regen or grievous wounds is pathetic, and none of the others are any better (besides Devourer with stacks built... though without them it's just a wit's end without the MR or the MR-theft).

BM GoyuDec 3, 20141 votes

Good talk.

RatbertDec 2, 20142 votes

Because support items give extraordinary amounts of gold, coupled with easier assists with actives.

BallisticMouseDec 3, 20141 votes

This, supports have items directed strictly towards gaining bonus gold for doing almost nothing but standing on lane but it's mostly spend on warding and team-support based items!

Junglers can end up being very rich if their ganking goes well, maybe try the splash damage smite item on a champ like Udyr to gain a lot of gold?

junglerboy16Dec 3, 20141 votes

It isn't that simple, they removed all of the gold bonuses from items with preseason, so the jungle gave considerably less gold. They are giving a little bit back if the PBE changes go live, but it will still be significantly less, even if you power farm the jungle for gold. additionally, power farming the jungle got nerved hard by the xp reduction for every level you are above a camp, for the reduced gold you earn, and for the increased difficulty of clearing the jungle (Only a WW or an Udyr with a couple items can still stay out indefinitely like before preseason while still clearing fast).

shppyDec 3, 20142 votes

not to mention the respawn timers absolutely killed gold/xp per time. They 'buffed' the gold and xp of small camps by ~20%, but doubled the respawn times... even accounting for the fact that now junglers may actually clear all 4 camps instead of just 3, the overall gold/xp rates got cut. Previously you got 3 camps worth of gold/xp every 50 seconds, or 6 camps every 100 seconds. Now, with that 'buffed' gold and xp and the doubled respawn times, you get the equivalent of ~4.8 S4 camps every 100 seconds.

Add onto that the loss of gold generators from jungle items, the much greater frequency of needing to recall and therefore missing out on farming/ganking time, the diminished ganking capabilities due to perpetually risky health levels, and the greater amount of gold soaked into health pots and you've got junglers pretty much being at their poorest and most underexperienced levels ever.

Oh, right, and to make matters worse, Dragon no longer gives gold (besides the last-hit gold). Which does indeed impact all players, not just the jungler, but hits the jungler particularly hard as that global gold was (and would be, if it still existed) a larger proportion of their total gold than it'd be for non-support laners... taking ~200 gold away from the jungler with ~5000 gold hurts a hell of a lot more than taking that ~200 gold away from the laners with ~8000, for instance.

junglerboy16Dec 3, 20141 votes

Exactly^

Lost RDec 3, 20142 votes

I found it depends on the champion. With Trundle, I tend to hit my full build before anyone else, but with Nautilus, he feels like he's clearing the lanes a hell of a lot slower than he used to. Tank junglers seem to have gotten the short end of the stick again in this deal, and so soon after the Spirit Golem item change gave them a much needed boost.

AbrahamBaconhamDec 3, 20142 votes

Not that he had superfast clears to begin with. It was mainly the insane amount of CC he provides for ganks and his sheer beefiness during teamfights that made him a good jungler. But tanks are seriously getting shafted this Preseason.

Lost RDec 4, 20141 votes

The problem is Nautilus' sustain has taken a hit because they removed the main item that provided that, and his shield (AKA his main source of damage) gets stripped away before he could even land a second blow at early levels while clearing a camp. This is especially bad for me, because he's my go to champion for both tankiness and crowd control if the rest of my team decides to go all damage.

AbrahamBaconhamDec 4, 20141 votes

Same here, awesome to meet another Naut player.

But dude, did you just steal my FEK?

Aurelius MaximusDec 3, 20141 votes

Am I the only jungler who out levels the rest of the team? sweet.

Optical PumpkinDec 3, 20141 votes

I have no problems in the new jungle. Vi and Nocturne especially tear it up. I can clear 4 camps first wave with only 1 pot. Gotta know how to smite, when to smite, and what to smite against.

Nocturne regularly slays udyr and WW in the new jungle.

junglerboy16Dec 3, 20142 votes

It isn't about who can or cannot clear the jungle, the issue is that the gold and xp both got nerfed AND the respawn timers got nerfed, which compounds the reduced gold and exp. Right now, even with a junglier that can clear very fast and safely, you are still falling behind because of how little gold you get from it.