I wish Lee Sin's ultimate was used more as a tactical playmaking move.

woobee·Dec 26, 2015·176 votes·6,842 views

Because I usually see it as a tactical nuclear burst weapon.

159 Comments

Critmaster GarenDec 26, 201571 votes

and by "tactical play making move", you mean:

"oh shit, i fucked up this play and now i might die. better kick my opponent 2 screens away so i can try again later."

RyùuzakiDec 26, 201549 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zbRJx4BE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-26T13:51:12.939+0000)

and by "tactical play making move", you mean:

"oh shit, i fucked up this play and now i might die. better kick my opponent 2 screens away so i can try again later."

then you accidentally end up killing him...

Hyrum GraffDec 26, 201525 votes

{quoted}

then you accidentally end up killing him...

Nah, it's when he's the tank and you accidentally end up killing the squishy behind him that's funny...

Mistress MadokaDec 27, 20152 votes

Poppy ?

PiVoRxDec 26, 201553 votes

I never understood where the whole "Lee Sin takes skill" comes from. All i see is champion that deals insane damage with no items, is very safe to play and cannot be outplayed (oh you owning me, heres my boot).

DrProfVibeCheckDec 26, 201542 votes

Not a Lee main, but I play him occasionally. I also have a friend who mains him. Honestly, Lee is one of those "easy to pick up/hard to master" champions. Noobs like me can do fairly well on him due to his mobility and damage, while pros or mains can do amazingly well because of his mobility and damage.

Sure, anyone can Q->Q->E into the enemy team, but to maximize Lee's potential, one must have superior LC$ Meckhonics.

Many champions "take skill", but Lee just has so many tools to use. Compare what he can do compared to someone simpler.

Need CC? Got it. Hella mobility? Sure. Damage? Whynot. Sustain? Have that.
AoE? Pfft EZ.

But, with those tools come more mess up and LC$ Meckhonics. Ever see a Lee kick away a nearly dead enemy to safety? What about a Lee that failed a ward jump? Lees horribly missing Q's?

I don't want to wholheartedly defend Lee (I agree his kit is overloaded), but someone has to keep it real.

PiVoRxDec 26, 20154 votes

Theres a difference between skill requierment and straigt forward overpowerness. I can understand a champion that needs mechanics to pull off a play but Lee beside kit allowing him to outplay anyone has also insane safety level and deals shitload of damage without items at all.

Either kit to outplay or insane damage and safety level, not everything at once.

LankPantsDec 26, 201532 votes

But, with those tools come more mess up and LC$ Meckhonics. Ever see a Lee kick away a nearly dead enemy to safety? What about a Lee that failed a ward jump? Lees horribly missing Q's?

Ever seen a Sona flash miss an ult? You can fuck up while playing any champion, people just give Lee a free pass because of his "skill cap".

DrProfVibeCheckDec 26, 201511 votes

Lee just has more to fuck up. He just has so much shit he can do that you have to know a lot of shit.

I'm not saying Lee is a hard champion, what I'm saying is that *he has more room for fuckup". His kit is all about positioning, both his and his enemies.

Although he has tools to reposition both himself and his target, you have to have the knowhow on where and to put yourself or the enemy at the right time.

Like I said, anyone can Q->Q->E into the enemy team, but knowing when to do it is where people mess up.

TheAwesomeJDec 26, 201525 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Glitterfart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zbRJx4BE,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-26T15:52:16.484+0000)

His kit is all about positioning, both his and his enemies.

Extreme mobility = Easy positioning that's the problem.

Try Lissandra , they're similar in what they do, but with 500 ap you'll have the same damage outpout as a tanky Lee sin But: higher cooldowns, burns mana, squishy, and once you're in the fight you can't leave the fight by pressing E on a ward or on a teammate.

And jungling with lee is f***** easy (and jungle is my main role) Manaless, steroids, damage, mobility, gap closers, cc, sustain, shields, apammable abilities.. Too much! Just look at rek sai, she's an utility champion but she can't do the same things that lee does And his Q, you can easly check drake and other creeps, Q every 5 seconds that reveal the target and the nearby area for 3 seconds. Counterjungling is too much easy, Q on the drake, Q again, kick away the enemy jungler, steal the drake and then you have just to press E on a ward to leave the fight.

I think the problem is that, they have to choose: Or his kit, or his damage. Not both

frigginmurlocsDec 26, 20153 votes

False, Lee sin's escape is his W, not his E

TheAwesomeJDec 26, 20152 votes

Confusing with liss ;:D

LlaniteDec 26, 20153 votes

For starter, she hits you regardless where you are or what she has missed.

Lee can't hit you if he missed his Q, as all his other abilities requires melee range. His risk of failure is greater, hence, has better reward when he got it right.

Chaotic ReksDec 26, 20156 votes

and where is he punished for missing Q? he's an energy champ with easy ways of gaining it back, also his cooldowns are hella short

LlaniteDec 26, 20152 votes

He becomes a walking punch bag for the next 6s, unable to do anything worthwhile.

Liss will just continue to blow you up with whatever she has left.

If someone hits you once every 2s, and another hitting you once every 6s, the rule of 'balance' requires the later to hit x3 as hard.

RatbertDec 27, 20151 votes

like everyone else who doesn't rely on autos? I mean, liss doesn't even really have autos to help her. If her combo doesn't do it, she won't get the kill. Lee can auto you to death much more easily.

LlaniteDec 27, 20152 votes

She still pulls her weight and contributes DPS, even if she could not land a 100-0.

If Lee Q does not hit a key target (i.e. the carry), it's essentially 5v4 until he can Q again.

And if someone can AA you to death without a dash, you need to learn moonwalking.

Stiv1234Dec 26, 201510 votes

Lee can't hit you if he missed his Q, as all his other abilities requires melee range.

Last time I checked he had a W.

LlaniteDec 26, 20152 votes

which costs him the escape and dramatically increases risk of dying.

J EevoDec 27, 20158 votes

That's half the roster though, you won't see jax jumping out after jumping in even though he too can do ward shenanigans, lee can still 'in case of emergency apply foot' or wait for his Q (hell, against some melees double E will suffice)

LlaniteDec 27, 20151 votes

Apple and orange.

Jax has an aoe stun to cover his retreat, ranged attack won't even hit him due to dodge, and he builds trinity (which grants MS). Lee has neither of the above.

fukimissHarambeDec 27, 20152 votes

Aside from commonly building black cleaver which grants MS after hitting enemies

J EevoDec 27, 20152 votes

You're kidding right?

Jax's dodge doesn't do shit against most enemies (yeah we're on an adc trend but it's the minority of the roster that uses pure autos as their fight contribution), and is melee range and regardless, Lee can still apply the foot to get to safety.

Apples and oranges indeed: Jax's way of getting out - burning E for the stun part, unless you somehow manage to approach the enemy while leaving Q up Lee's wayS of getting out - W to ally, a ward, or a minion, Q to an enemy minion or a jungle monster, double E(and yeah in most cases it gains some distance but mainly buys you time for the other skills) R the target and just walk out.

GlockHammerDec 27, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Apple and orange.

Jax has an aoe stun to cover his retreat, ranged attack won't even hit him due to dodge, and he builds trinity (which grants MS). Lee has neither of the above.

Lee has a shield to cover his retreat, it's also effective against any kind of damage, even true damage, jax's counterstike however only works against autos. Lee has a ton of other stuff Jax doesn't have and his stun is extremely telegraphed, I'd even call it easy to avoid and counterplay given you can. The only thing Lee has that is even remotely telegraphed is his Q and even that can hardly be called telegraphed due to it's practically nonexistet cast animation and extremely high projectile speed.

SpoofghoulDec 26, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Glitterfart,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zbRJx4BE,comment-id=0003000000010000,timestamp=2015-12-26T15:52:16.484+0000)

Lee just has more to fuck up.

And Lee has more to fall back on once he fucks up

That is the issue, he does everything well and if he fails he can kick you slow you ward hop dash to ally shield you name it he has it.

DrProfVibeCheckDec 26, 20153 votes

I agree with that

Ariel the CruelDec 26, 20154 votes

Or failing all else, he can just walk away. You know, with that tier 2 move speed and all.

GlockHammerDec 27, 20152 votes

I did see Lee kick nearly dead enemies to safety before they added % health dmg to his ult. Haven't seen it lately, though.

Before it was straight up hard scaling ult kick that was more or less single target displacement, then they buffed it to collide with other champions, then they buffed it to do scaling damage per champion the target hit, then they added dealing damage to each champion hit and displacing these as well.

Honestly, all they did was make tank Lee do even more damage to low hp targets and turn AD Lee into a freaking nightmare. Note, I can't recall exacly in which order these buffs occured but they all have and that's bad enough.

Literally had a Lee Sin shave off half of my teams hp bar with just that one ability last game, it was freaking absurd. Taking 70% of my health after resists as an adc despite having a chain vest (it was what saved me from being oneshot?).

Note, he didn't kill anyone because his team had positioned badly and nobody could follow up, but it doesn't change the fact that this ability has been absurdly overtuned. And one could only ask why, why does Lee Sin have to be so freakishly strong on top of being one of the most versatile champs in the game?

I'm sure Riot are quite aware of this and can only assume it's intended favoritism.

ShatoSummonerDec 27, 20153 votes

Uh. His kick does 12/15/18% of the kicked targets bonus health to champions hit by the collision. Why? To reward players using it tactically as a counterengage/disengage/disrupt/cc

GlockHammerDec 27, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Uh. His kick does 12/15/18% of the kicked targets bonus health to champions hit by the collision. Why? To reward players using it tactically as a counterengage/disengage/disrupt/cc

Wow, kick the frontline to destroy the backline, really intuitive, really tactical, much wow.

GundayMondayDec 26, 20154 votes

He's really hard to play well because of the need for fast fingers with his combos, but at the same time, he is SO SAFE with all his escapes and disengages. Feels so good when you actually get the outplay against him!

Kaname DateDec 26, 201519 votes

"we didn't want to give poppy too much damage on her ult"

Lee Sin's got no Channel,Knock Back and Dmg

Left Hook LarryDec 26, 20153 votes

And poppies sends multiple people across the map which brings so much more use in teamfights in terms of peel

AK47WOLFDec 26, 201510 votes

Lee Sin is a very specific champion ache-type that is only shared by one other: Thresh.

When a champion makes a "big play", it's usually in reference to something difficult/intricate/skillful that the player pulled off. It's a compliment to the individual for the mastery they have shown with their champion. This is the case for most champions except, notably...

Lee Sin and Thresh. Both of their kits might as well read, "Passive: Esporty thing. Q: Esports Play A. W: Esports Play B. E: Esports Play C. R: ESPORTS BIIIIG PLAY." It's so bad that if Thresh lands a hook, it's an "Esports Big Play." Both of these champions afford viewers a synthetic sense of observational pleasure because they fly around the map and do flashy things with relatively little input. Both of them have to mash Q twice to fly three screens away towards the enemy. How incredibly taxing, the player had to press one button twice. Yet everyone goes crazy about it.

Imagine condensing all of the skill-requirement of Yasuo into a button or two which then enables everyone to play him optimally and think they are amazing. That's basically Lee Sin or Thresh.

As a Lee Sin player I think he's a fun champion and a good fit for me because I'm a bad player. Lee Sin, mechanically, requires absolutely nothing of me. The biggest tactical consideration I have to make with Lee is "Do I Q2 now or do a bit more damage to get more bonus damage?" and also, "Make sure to R first before Q2." Once I had that down, guess what? I play Lee Sin at 80-85% efficiency, which is fine for 99.9% of situations. Sure he has a high skillcap and I'd have to play this game 16 hours a day in order to touch that last 15-20%. Since I refuse to, will I get pummeled by a Lee main that does? Yep. But will I still consistently "outplay" people that are significantly better than me who are playing significantly more intricate champions? Yes.

Teemo or FeedmoDec 26, 20155 votes

full ad lee is cancer,trust me.

fééd l0rdDec 26, 20154 votes

Lee's ultimate scales extremely well with BONUS ad. If he builds a lot of it, you can burst him down as easily has he can burst YOU down. A Lee Sin who bought full damage should be rewarded if he manages to q you in a teamfight. On the other hand a bruiser Lee Sin also has to be rewarded when he hasn't bought that much damage. He gets rewarded the moment he pulls off the extremely diffucult insec move.

A Miss FortuneDec 26, 201530 votes

Lee's ultimate scales extremely well with BONUS ad. If he builds a lot of it, you can burst him down as easily has he can burst YOU down.

The thing is Lee doesn't need to build damage to do damage. His base damage is extremely high and he already has two abilities that do % health damage. He isn't that squishy either, he has a shield, built-in lifesteal and spellvamp, two dashes, a reallllly high base movement speed, and multiple forms of AoE CC. Trust me, Lee isn't "squishy" and his entire kit is loaded with plenty forms of sustain and self peel to prevent him being blown up.

On the other hand a bruiser Lee Sin also has to be rewarded when he hasn't bought that much damage. He gets rewarded the moment he pulls off the extremely diffucult insec move.

How is literally flashing behind the enemy tank and pressing R an "extremely difficult insec move". Lee really isn't that mechanically intense at all with his entire kit aside from his Q (which by the way is one of the fastest projectiles in the game) being point-and-click or just steroids.

fééd l0rdDec 26, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zbRJx4BE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-26T13:50:38.209+0000)

The thing is Lee doesn't need to build damage to do damage. His base damage is extremely high and he already has two abilities that do % health damage. He isn't that squishy either, he has a shield, built-in lifesteal and spellvamp, two dashes, a reallllly high base movement speed, and multiple forms of AoE CC. Trust me, Lee isn't "squishy" and his entire kit is loaded with plenty forms of sustain and self peel to prevent him being blown up.

How is literally flashing behind the enemy tank and pressing R an "extremely difficult insec move". Lee really isn't that mechanically intense at all with his entire kit aside from his Q (which by the way is one of the fastest projectiles in the game) being point-and-click or just steroids.

Full damage Lee will get blown up as soon as you focus him there is nothing to discuss. A bruiser Lee Sin is as hard to kill as bruiser Fizz. Flash insec is as hard as flash tibbers. I agree but you don't have your flash everytime up. Q-Q wardhop behind the enemy plus ultimate is in certain situations extremely hard to pull off, here you just can't disagree.

Lee is the jack of all trades. He can do everything and he is the most mobile champion in the game I guess but for everything else there is someone who can do the same things as Lee just easier. Lockdown the adc? Vi Peel for you carries and absorb damage? Maokaoi Clearspeed in the jungle? Shyvana Insec people into your team? Gragas ganks? Xin Zhao

Lee Sin mostly deals physical damage. This means you can simply stack armor against him... Yes he can kick the tank into your team to deal an insane amount of damage so what do you have to do? Dont stay clutched. Don't engage without brain. BTW bruisers are meant to not be blown up, just a thought.

iamthegoatofwarDec 26, 201514 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused] flash tibbers is hard...?

ModAcademy KaynDec 27, 20156 votes

He's saying Flash insect is as hard as flash tibbers. Which is braindead easy. His tone suggests as much in his paragraph.

tainteddazeDec 26, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Full damage Lee will get blown up as soon as you focus him there is nothing to discuss. A bruiser Lee Sin is as hard to kill as bruiser Fizz. Flash insec is as hard as flash tibbers. I agree but you don't have your flash everytime up. Q-Q wardhop behind the enemy plus ultimate is in certain situations extremely hard to pull off, here you just can't disagree.

Lee is the jack of all trades. He can do everything and he is the most mobile champion in the game I guess but for everything else there is someone who can do the same things as Lee just easier. Lockdown the adc? Vi Peel for you carries and absorb damage? Maokaoi Clearspeed in the jungle? Shyvana Insec people into your team? Gragas ganks? Xin Zhao

Lee Sin mostly deals physical damage. This means you can simply stack armor against him... Yes he can kick the tank into your team to deal an insane amount of damage so what do you have to do? Dont stay clutched. Don't engage without brain. BTW bruisers are meant to not be blown up, just a thought.

That is why no one uses full damage lee sin builds. What do they use o that jungle ad item and pretty much just tanks items after that unless they doing so well they can squeeze one more damage item in the build. All while building like this lee sin can 1 combo any adc, mid laner that isn't a tank, and any none tank top laner, jungler and support. It makes no sense why lee sin can do this and be crazy hard to kill due to the mobility and that fact that he shields himself, life steals, and just has tanky ass items on in the first place to take crazy amounts of less damage. Once you actually know how to play lee sin in pretty much every match up you understand the only thing hard about playing him is if your team feeds or doesn't feed. Rest of his kit is like stealing candy from 15 retarded 1 day olds that can't even cry right. That is how easy it is to play lee sin compare to other champions that have all skill shot moves with zero gap closers.

Also stacking armor against him as mid and adc doesn't help him still one combos you. Your point only applies to tanks which he can't 1 combo in the first place.

Lee sin is beyond broken in kit design there are a few other champions that have kits like his that need complete rework or just huge nerfs to tune him down to give him a identity instead of just being a powerhouse vs anyone.

Sozan5Dec 26, 20154 votes

The scaling is not a problem however. If Lee builds full damage he should be awarded with high damage. The problem is his base damage coupled with high scaling.

200/400/600 +200% Bonus AD is huge for an ability that has a solid CC in it and can potentially be AoE (not hard to hit additional champion (sometimes 2), but nearly impossible to hit whole enemy team). Also with low cooldown and no cost.

The only downside to this ability is its low range - but Lee's kit is mobile enough to negate that weakness.

I believe that nerfing Lee base damage on his R would be a great way to nerf him (I am not entirely sure if he needs nerfs right now). I mean, usually champions have either high base or high scalings, not both (some examples of that would be Gnar R with 200/300/400 +20% Bonus AD (increased to 300/450/600 +30% Bonus AD if the target collides with terrain), or Wukong R with 20/110/200 +110% AD per second (maybe not the best example, but hey)).

The Yetii RiderDec 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The scaling is not a problem however. If Lee builds full damage he should be awarded with high damage. The problem is his base damage coupled with high scaling.

200/400/600 +200% Bonus AD is huge for an ability that has a solid CC in it and can potentially be AoE (not hard to hit additional champion (sometimes 2), but nearly impossible to hit whole enemy team). Also with low cooldown and no cost.

The only downside to this ability is its low range - but Lee's kit is mobile enough to negate that weakness.

I believe that nerfing Lee base damage on his R would be a great way to nerf him (I am not entirely sure if he needs nerfs right now). I mean, usually champions have either high base or high scalings, not both (some examples of that would be Gnar R with 200/300/400 +20% Bonus AD (increased to 300/450/600 +30% Bonus AD if the target collides with terrain), or Wukong R with 20/110/200 +110% AD per second (maybe not the best example, but hey)).

Riot had a rework a few years ago that lowered the base damage to 50/125/200, I believe. People lost their shit.

I remember showing the changes to my friend IRL and he turned around in his chair and starting kicking my ankle. "Hey Neo, I'm Lee Sin. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Take my ult."

TheAwesomeJDec 26, 20153 votes

V5.16:

Dragon's Rage.png Dragon's Rage New Effect: Enemies hit by the kicked enemy take bonus physical damage equal to 12 / 15 / 18% of kicked enemy's bonus health.

That's the problem: WHY 600+ (2x Bonus AD) + 18% hp... means over 350 for 2k hp up to over 700 for 4k hp

DessemDec 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I mean, usually champions have either high base or high scalings, not both (some examples of that would be Gnar R with 200/300/400 +20% Bonus AD (increased to 300/450/600 +30% Bonus AD if the target collides with terrain), or Wukong R with 20/110/200 +110% AD per second (maybe not the best example, but hey)).

Veigar has 250 / 375 / 500 + 100% AP scaling. Caitlyn has 250 / 475 / 700 + 200% AD scalings, but hers is strictly single-target as opposed to Lee Sin's, of course.

Lee Sin's ultimate is one of the best in the game when it comes to AoE damage, due to its scalings and how it rewards Lee kicking a tank.

If you nerfed his ult to have less, though, you'd probably get complaints that Lee Sin is no longer fun.

Sozan5Dec 26, 20153 votes

Well, Cait also has a few second channel and it can be intercepted by other champions (of course, as an upside - it has huge range), so the damage seems reasonable.

Ariel the CruelDec 26, 20156 votes

If you nerfed his ult to have less, though, you'd probably get complaints that Lee Sin is no longer fun.

I believe Morello commented on this a long time ago. Something along the lines of. . .

Lee sin is fun. Shitting on people is fun. Therefore Lee Sin is fun. But Lee Sin should probably be fun for something other than just shitting on people.

If someone can find where that quote came from, I'd appreciate it. having a little trouble.

EDIT: Finally found it: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/balancing-an-esport-and-designing-the-jungle-an-in/1100-6425770/

Like I said [in the panel], Lee Sin is very fun. Shitting on people is fun. Therefore, Lee Sin is very fun. But Lee Sin probably shouldn't just shit on people.

JasiwelDec 27, 20154 votes

You know, if the damage ratios weren't as strong, it would still be an extremely good ultimate. Peel for your carry AND knockup? Not only does your ADC like you, but so does your other ADC named Yasuo.

Hot CousinDec 28, 20153 votes

the % HP damage buff to his ult was one of the dumbest buffs in League history

Kuroi86Dec 28, 20153 votes

Honestly, would love to see Riot try out a version of Lee Sins ult that has low base damage, no scaling on his own AD and remove the bonus health scaling, but in return, let it scale off of 400% of your targets bonus AD. NOW people will get some major rewards for flanking the ADC.