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@Riot. Why do we even have runes and masteries at this point?

Sherogarth··34 votes·2,471 views

I just cant find reasonable answer to this question. Everyone with at last some basics of math or IT knows that unnecessery variables are simply just a bad idea. And runes and masteries are just that - set of almost unpredictable variables in already chaotic formula for balance. What is even worse, there is almost no value in keeping them in game. They are even failing thier job in customization layer of League because players usualy just google them anyway. Hell, when you want to keep them original other player will soon tell you how bad you are for not following the one and only meta...

This game can only gain form thier removal - easier balance, reduction of power/mobility creep, better new player experience (they usually dont know how powerful runes/masteries are and what to do with them), removal of additional layer of invisible strenght - to name few things.

Ofc there are few problems to address if we remove them:

  • Jungle would need some balance (10 - 15% reduction in stats for all camps should do the trick),
  • New player should gain something with levels (1 free champion every 5 lvls?),
  • Old players should be given something in return for thier runes and runepages (one mystery gift for every 30 runes and 1 for every runepage above 2?)
  • Some champions would need some balance because they often use quite specific runepages/masteries.

So what do you guys think? Should runes/masteries stay or be removed? Maybe I forgot about something that makes them vital for this game? Cookies?

48 Comments

Disdain13 votes

Hmm. I like that they add customization to the game, and allow you to either patch up your weaknesses, or compliment your strengths. I like that if I don't like full damage supports, I can run tankier runes and masteries and get a completely different experience than a carry support on the same champion.

If they removed runes and masteries, either the carry support would be forced more into the protective role, or the protective support into the carry role, thereby eliminating any divergent strategies.

I enjoy doing math and thinking about what runes and masteries would best suit my playstyle. I enjoy having lanes feel different because of what runes are run. It adds interest to deal with a full AD rune'd panth vs a more balanced one, and the games not literally always being the same.

I mean, if there were no runes and masteries, hard counters would be even MORE hard, because there's no mitigation at all you could do, you couldn't run MR against an AP lane, or heavy armour against a full AD team. There would be less thought in the game, and I don't like that trend. Top lane in particular would be horrendous rock-paper-scissors, even more so than it is now.

So, because the game would feel much more "samey," challenges of knowing what runes to run are eliminated, and figuring out pages that work really well for you wouldn't be a thing, I can't really say I'm for it. It would make the game much more boring for me.

The only thing I don't like about the rune system is that it inherently makes lvl 30s superior to lvl 1s just through pure stats.

(Also, I've never had anyone bitch at me or my friends about my runepages, and let me tell you, my plat 2 bro runs a FULL FRIGGING AP page in ranked for whatever godawful reason lmao. He's not received any flak. Neither has my friend who runs attackspeed on janna... sigh lol.)

Sherogarth3 votes

"Patch up your weaknesses" is a key sentence here. You should not be able to remove champion's weaknesses with something as trivial as runes, you should play around them.

It is vital to understand that champions are designed with those limitations because it makes them easier to balance. When you are able to simply remove those weaknesses you end up with something like tank yasuo...

As for counter picks: Lets say im Riven top and i picked before enemy top lainer. My enemy picks Malphite to counter me. To counter this im picking my full armor penetration/mr runepage. He does not know about this so thats an invisible power on my side. But he knows that he is playing against Riven so he picks his full armor/magic penetration runepage. With perfectly balanced runes our runepages just nullify each other out. So in the end we end up "without" runes anyway and thats the problem. What matters now is that im Riven an he is Malphite. I can play aroud this by picking up ignite and force kills, i can try gank other lanes bc Riven snowballs much harder, i can try to splitpush or just farm up in top bro lane and in team fights focus on other player in thier team or on protecting our carries that can deal with armor.

Runes should not be a "counterplay" before you even started playing.

TequilaZombie1 votes

Said Malphite could decide to take an offensive on the Riven, as he has much better base stats than her. He could grab AD reds and get about 15 extra AD, while picking defensive items to create an early advantage.

He could trust on his early game stats advantage to be enough to survive/beat Riven and go for scaling runes to be a bigger threat late game and force focus on himself.

Or we could remove runes and dumb down the game a little bit.

Ok sure but why7 votes

i kinda enjoy my 22 extra ad on miss fortune early game

Sherogarth8 votes

I enjoy my +30 armor on Taric but there is much bigger picture we must see if we want this game balanced and fair, not only "I" and "my".

cinomenapplebae10 votes

I enjoy my 1 percent crit rune on karthus so the enemy will go "what was that" when i crit every auto and 3 shot them

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

...elaborate

IcyPepper2 votes

RNG joke, I think?

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

ohhhhh it was a joooooookeee. now i see. (i still dont see) waddles away

SanKakU1 votes

Might be a Hearthstone joke. In that game, things that are that unlikely happen on a regular basis.

Ðeceive2 votes

YASSSSSSSSSS 1% CRIT FTW

ViiLLAiN1 votes

{quoted}

I enjoy my +30 armor on Taric but there is much bigger picture we must see if we want this game balanced and fair, not only "I" and "my".

try move speed quints on taric lmk when u hit plat cuz its that broken

morris11 votes

Will never forget old Top Taric. Walk into lane at level 1 with 100 armor and tilt every Riven on the planet.

Ozag the Mighty2 votes

Make a full crit page and play yasuo...early game tilt wins games

Ok sure but why1 votes

i have one of those for talon

IPromiseTomorrow1 votes

I remember facing that... I didn't really agree to the method I won lane and the Yasuo and I just arguing if that rune setup was really reliable.

Then we said no it wasn't all that reliable, it's just the cheese and silver elo that make it hilariously effective.

I honored him he was chill. This was a ranked game! This guy was the nicest Yasuo main I've seen! Keep using the times if the runes serve it's purpose.

Only Play Darius1 votes

At the expense of any resistances so you get blown up if the support lands one good CC

Papa Andrei3 votes

They just need to make the runes free is all.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

And runes and masteries are just that - set of almost unpredictable variables

This is my only (very minor) point of contention, mainly because I think rune and mastery setups tend to be too predictable in many cases (e.g. practically everyone picking flat armor yellows and MR blues), to the point where there's little to no real choice in setting up masteries for any given champion, regardless of situation.

Other than that, I completely agree with this, and I think we would be better off without runes and masteries altogether. League has become such a complex balancing environment that at least one Rioter is seriously considering the possibility of splitting up the champion roster, a la MtG/Hearthstone, and yet here we are, stuck with systems Riot has sunk a huge amount of design resources into, that ultimately offer no real additional gameplay, add a huge layer of unnecessary complexity, and put newer players at an even more serious disadvantage than they ever should be. This season, masteries were reworked into their best iteration yet, and that iteration has caused massive balance issues that endure to this day. A lot of current balance problems come from other issues as well -- tanky items are too generally effective on squishy damage-dealers, for example -- but even then, those issues are still amplified by these out-of-game systems, such as with Fervor of Battle allowing champions like Yasuo to maintain good DPS without committing to damage builds.

Another issue Riot has mentioned several times recently is that they want to reduce lobby times, as they last too long. This is also, I suspect, why they were reluctant to give us 5 bans per team, as that would lengthen the pick/ban phase even more. Trouble is, lobby times are inflated by both runes and masteries, since players need to pick out the right combination in time, and occasionally make some adjustments for a specific champion. Worse still, those systems turn players away from each other: the lobby's meant to be a time for players to properly team up, communicate with each other and start discussing strategy, but that's not really possible when people are too busy managing their rune and mastery setup to talk (or when they're AFK, though that's another issue). Adding to this, picking out runes and masteries feels more like a chore than anything else, and forgetting to lock in the right setup feels terrible, likely more so than the actual in-game impact, which becomes mostly irrelevant after the first few levels and items.

TL;DR: Yeah, take them out. At best, runes and masteries offer little in the way of real gameplay or enjoyment, and at worst, they reduce gameplay, and do a ton of nasty things to overall balance, clarity and the new player experience. There is nothing they offer that items cannot, and I'd suggest just bumping up every player's starting gold to match the gold equivalent of the power they'd lose with those systems. There'd still have to be quite a few adjustments to be made to the maps and several champions, but that would be more than worth the benefit of a clearer, simpler game.

FioraWillCarry2 votes

{quoted} They are even failing thier job in customization layer of League because players usualy just google them anyway.

I have 9 rune pages. All of them were made based completely on my own preferences. I set my runes and masteries based on how I want to play. I'm not Faker. Never cared how he does his so no need to google it.

Immortal spax1 votes

Faker till a year a ago had only 2 runes page, now 3.

If you dont believe me check his op.gg, hide on bush

ViiLLAiN1 votes

its just to fine tune the way you want to play ur champ... its necessary and shouldn't be removed

Ben Sharpio1 votes

Because it feels like a progression type of thing. I know comparing 2 completely different games is wrong, but i'm going to compare overwatch to league. The whole overwatch system feels like there's absolutely 0 progression, which is why i stopped playing the game a lot lately. But for league, i always feel/felt like there was something, or a new system to look forward to to learn. With a TRULY new player, i probably don't want those 600 things shoved in my face, like runes and masteries, so League gives the new player some time to pick up these things. Like tier 1-2 runes, getting mastery points ect.

Sherogarth1 votes

In league you already have to unlock champions, thats progression system on its own. Also i dont want to remove level up rewards just change them into something not affecting gameplay balance.

Teridax681 votes

Personally, I think it might be better to unlock all champions from the start and, combined with the above changes, remove IP as a currency entirely. It would solve the problem of ARAM-only accounts, give everyone the requisite minimum number of champion's they'd need to enter Ranked (and, hopefully, allow Riot to impose stricter requirements on which champions players get to use, i.e. preventing players from first timing champions in Ranked and the like), and potentially increase their revenue substantially by essentially making every skin available to everyone.

As much as I love progression (and I still think League can offer progression in ways other than Ranked), I don't think the traditional model for progression, i.e. a vertical increase in power, really works in League. As a game with one of the steepest learning curves around, League should be doing everything it can to facilitate entry for newer players. Instead, not only do players find themselves in an environment with literally hundreds of rules and subtleties they have to mostly figure out on their own, but they're also put there with about one full item's worth of power less than the kind of player the game is balanced around.

If there is to be progression in League, I think it should be through cosmetics. The Hextech Crafting system essentially allows even completely f2p players to access skins, which means they can work towards unlocking a skin they particularly like, or any skin for their favorite champion. Since new cosmetics are made at a pretty good pace, and at an overall pretty high standard of quality, there's pretty much no end to this kind of progression either, so if players adopt this kind of model as a mode of progression, they'd have a lot of trouble capping out.

FioraWillCarry2 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I think it might be better to unlock all champions from the start and.....

Then the game can't be free to play.

Teridax681 votes

Why not? There are far more cosmetics than there are champions, and many cosmetics are more expensive than even the priciest of champions. Obviously, I can only speculate here, since I don't have access to Riot's sales records, nor am I a market expert, but I'm willing to bet that unlocking champions could actually boost sales overall, since everyone would be able to try them out much more easily and have far fewer obstacles between them and purchasing a new skin. That was the point I was trying to make at the portion of the paragraph you cut out of the quote.

hhaavviikk1 votes

I like runes, they just need to be repriced and rebalanced, sure people will just copy setups from websites but same could be said for item builds, people copy those as well item for item.

Catastrop1 votes

Frankly, I like the customization that runes afford, and I'd rather they stay. My problem is how expensive a full set is, and how much impact they have in game because of it. If all Runes were simply made free, and only champions had to be bought, well I think that'd be cool.

EpikFeeder1 votes

Idgaf what they do with runes but i kinda cant wait to see what im going to get in compensation for the mass amount of ip they cost me :p

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

hopefully something cosmetic like a bunch of chromas

Teridax681 votes

The most direct change could probably just be a total IP refund, which would then allow you to unlock a massive amount of champions. If you already have most or all champions, then you'd still end up with just as much IP as if you hadn't spent anything on runes anyway, so you'd still have the same overall "value".

friendly heavy1 votes

i don't even play with runes so i don't give a Amumu if they're removed, though i think masteries are important as they are customized for what you are (jungler,adc,supp,etc). my masteries saved and made me win many games and fights. it's all about that +1 damage advantage

HaloDragonX1 votes

Some champions need CDR runes. Just lowing cooldowns more just will make some of them buy more CDR and have even lower cooldowns.

Lordk0z1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c

This is the whole unlock-champions runes, masteries system in a nuthell. It exists to keep people playing using a series of psychological traps. It conditions people to play for some kind of "Reward".

That's why it'll never be removed. It's a key part of their business model.

And we all fell for it.

TIME TO LOSE KID1 votes

They should be free and you should be able to edit them in champion select like you would be able to with masteries; having more rune pages = having more options = having a metagame advantage over your enemy, kind of stupid tbh since this is a "competitive" game.

Shouldn't be removed though - some champions actually need a specific set of runes to function at their fullest potential. GP for example needs to incorporate 10-20% CDR into runes or else his builds become suboptimal and shitty.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Runes in their current state exist as an IP sink. That's important. It gives people a reason to care about IP after they have all the champions.

But % crit chance really needs to be removed.

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

Removing runes would require riot to to a whole patch which is just a fiesta of base stats and jungle monster changes

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

DOTA has no runes and masteries (and no summoner spells) and the game feels way more balanced - you can't really get solo kills early without ignite/flash, unless the enemy misplays super hard or you gank/ chainstun.

agbudar1 votes

what needs to happen is a real re balance of runes some are so much better then others that im left wondering why the bad ones exist in the first place

exibit a flat health scaling seals vs 0.5% max health seals. (hint 0.5% runes only start paying off when you have over 5k health)

it gets even better when you realize that the flat ones are cheaper also.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

already said it multiple time

the more you add things like runes, masteries, summoner spells, the more you imbalance the game

why?because champions's kit are designed WITHOUT taking them in consideration. Same way jax was broken in s4 where he could teleport back to lane and reduce his early game weakness same way keystones broke a number of champs.

so the design/balance team has to balance the 130 champions with all of them in the game (ss, masteries, runes) that reduce their weaknesses.

Keìron1 votes

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ctJfMx1HjpA/U_wujr4qyPI/AAAAAAAAX8Y/yyqmjk6twbc/s1600/you're%2Bgoodman%2Bright.jpg

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

i would love if runes and summoner 4 got removed from the game

OokamiNoSora1 votes

Well my first argument for runes is a bit shallow. But I spent real money on rune pages (I have max rune pages) and I spent many many hours saving up for my runes. So for players like me if they just got rid of them I would want money back in the form of rp and they cant really give me my time back and ip is kinda useless to me so I dont know how they would make that rite. Secondly I think runes are a good concept they give you a chance to make your start unique (even tho a lot of players tend to just do whats popular bc its the "best" choice). Masteries Are kinda hit and miss with me. So people just starting out are kinda at a disadvantage already bc they are sent against people they should not even be facing (early match making is the worst) and they kinda already do the same things runes do, except for the new keystones which Im quite iffy about.

GuaigaWaruiDesu1 votes

I like my energy regeneration on Shen.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

No pls. It's already stupidly hard to lasthit without runes.

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