The reason why old champions are being updated [With discussion]

QuickenedBlade··2 votes·740 views
Data and Champion Balance - Part 2

Let’s start with an easy concept: the underlying counterplay of a character. Generally, if a character has low counterplay, then they also tend to be more binary on the champion strength scale (either oppressively strong with no answers, or incredibly weak with no agency), whereas the opposite is true of champions with lots of counterplay.

example champions I see fit this description Evelynn Pantheon JarvanIV Tryndamere Kayle Annie Kennen MonkeyKing Graves

They either get fed and bullshit people to death, or they're useless. All these champions could use work, even some I didn't mention because I know I'd only get more hate if I mentioned them.

  • Everybody here has experienced the 11-1 Evelynn insta-fucking you from stealth at 10 min because your team fed and there's nothing you can do.
  • Or Kayle right clicking you to death from god mode.
  • Or fed MonkeyKing press ER from stealth and instantly killing a team.

They feel binary and frankly unfun to play against. Every single one of them. Even in the article I linked they mentioned Blitzcrank as a perfect example of counterplay. I'd almost argue he's also very binary, feast or famine. In the same way I think Lux is.

Throw Q, Hit? (Yes/no) No -> go to step 1 Yes -> press R -> go to step 1

Even though you can dodge the one ability, it's still comes down to a [yes/no] on hit for kill, which is by definition BINARY.

22 Comments

BluePolarizer1 votes

Every champion is binary.

Does Zed have enough AD to 1-shot you? Yes? He kills everyone on the map. Does he not? He's about as useful as a siege minion.

QuickenedBlade2 votes

{quoted}

Every champion is binary.

Does Zed have enough AD to 1-shot you? Yes? He kills everyone on the map. Does he not? He's about as useful as a siege minion.

Zed's W can be used in more than 1 way. His E can be used in different ways. His Ult can be used in different ways. He has delay on his damage, time to reposition before burst. Zed has a fuckton of depth and counterplay.

You can tag-in/tag-out back and forth with Zed W and R if you're behind and can't 1v1.

I could program a bot for Lux for how binary she is.

if (Q.hit) { R.cast; } else { wait(8000.00) }

if (distance.betweenchamps < 700) { x.axis = x.axis-1; }

if (minion.health < 70) { aAttack; }

That's all you have to do to win as Lux. Stay 700 units away and spam Q till you hit, then press R and you can get plat 5.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Doesn't mean that he's not low utility and useless when behind, oppressive when ahead.

QuickenedBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't mean that he's not low utility and useless when behind, oppressive when ahead.

Zed has extremely high waveclear and mobility. He can split push.

He has counterplay, so he's not overly oppressive.

Niyumi1 votes

{quoted}

He has counterplay, so he's not overly oppressive.

Yeah, about as much counterplay as an ADC. You have several options!

  1. Go nowhere near him.

  2. CC him until he dies.

  3. Literally one shot him.

  4. Die.

Lux has far, far, far more counterplay than Zed ever has or ever will have.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

Am I the only one that things Annie has counterplay and outplay potential?

QuickenedBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chroma Spell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zNzv6y4u,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-25T03:05:20.901+0000)

Am I the only one that things Annie has counterplay and outplay potential?

If she has a 0.1% advantage over you,

you get no farm no kills no roam

she has waveclear, targeted hard CC, burst, and survivability. The only thing she lacks is range and mobility.

Just my opinion though. I don't mean to sound hard.

BluePolarizer1 votes

range and mobility are the 2 things that are most important for a midlaner though.

QuickenedBlade1 votes

{quoted}

range and mobility are the 2 things that are most important for a midlaner though.

annie = a walking nuclear bomb

BluePolarizer1 votes

Lux/Xerath/Vel'Koz/Orianna/Syndra/Viktor = more damage but at double the range. LeBlanc/Ahri/Ekko = more damage at equal range but way more mobility.

This is clearly known to high elo players and is why "no counterplay" Annie is not being played in the LCS: she sucks against meta mids that do more damage at higher range and also gets shit on by solo queue stompers because of low mobility.

QuickenedBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Lux/Xerath/Vel'Koz/Orianna/Syndra/Viktor = more damage but at double the range. LeBlanc/Ahri/Ekko = more damage at equal range but way more mobility.

This is clearly known to high elo players and is why "no counterplay" Annie is not being played in the LCS: she sucks against meta mids that do more damage at higher range and also gets shit on by solo queue stompers because of low mobility.

lux/xer/vel have to land abilities unlike annie lux/xer/vel have 0 targeted cc to peel and get0% dmg reduction lb has been broken ahri doesnt do equal damage and she has to land abilities, she also doesnt stack hp so she dies instantly.

Annie isn't played in LCS because she has 0 skill floor/cap

BluePolarizer1 votes

Annie's W and R can miss, actually. It's just as easy to miss Annie W/R as Lux E, Xerath Q and Vel'Koz W.

And since when has skillcap been a determinant of whether something gets LCS time? The only thing that matters for LCS is strength. Annie is a bad champion thus is not picked. If she was good then she'd be picked.

QuickenedBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Annie's W and R can miss, actually. It's just as easy to miss Annie W/R as Lux E, Xerath Q and Vel'Koz W.

And since when has skillcap been a determinant of whether something gets LCS time? The only thing that matters for LCS is strength. Annie is a bad champion thus is not picked. If she was good then she'd be picked.

ur just so bad i cant put it into words

just fucking lmao

LCS doesn't pick feast/famine champs dumbass

BluePolarizer1 votes

Sure they do. They picked Darius in season 5 worlds.

Post on your main account then if you are so good. Unless you are diamond 3+, you aren't better than me.

QuickenedBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Lux/Xerath/Vel'Koz/Orianna/Syndra/Viktor = more damage but at double the range. LeBlanc/Ahri/Ekko = more damage at equal range but way more mobility.

This is clearly known to high elo players and is why "no counterplay" Annie is not being played in the LCS: she sucks against meta mids that do more damage at higher range and also gets shit on by solo queue stompers because of low mobility.

and did my post say "annie broken in lcs" or did i say she's unfun to play against?

Kukan Seishin1 votes

Uhhh, annie has 0 wave clear are you kidding me? And her survivability is pretty garbage till she get zhonya, and even then she is FLASHING INTO the enemy team for a ult that they MADE that you can flash away from, there is delay on it now.

QuickenedBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jargon Wan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zNzv6y4u,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2017-02-25T03:37:37.532+0000)

Uhhh, annie has 0 wave clear are you kidding me? And her survivability is pretty garbage till she get zhonya, and even then she is FLASHING INTO the enemy team for a ult that they MADE that you can flash away from, there is delay on it now.

item 3157 item 3027 item 3152 = core items, her E

Kukan Seishin1 votes

And her survivability is pretty garbage till she get zhonya

See that? UNTIL Look b4 post

Handy Sandy 1 votes

If she's holding onto her stun forever, she's gonna have 0 waveclear. If you're AD an early option is item 3155 and if you're AP chances are you outrange her.

Gamer Gallade1 votes

cough cough XinZhao Garen cough cough

Sorry, but some of these are missing in the binary department as an example for good reasons.

When it comes to Binary champions, I truly despise them for good reasons because of how overly simple their kit is right now.

XinZhao I truly hate for good reasons because of how his kit works right now. Get fed and proceed to stab anyone in range of your e and poke them to death or get destroyed and split push to ends of the earth. A side from that This champion is so old he needs a rework as much as some of the other champions that got reworked...

Garen We already know how he works that its laughable on how useless he can get or how much of a monster he can be if hes ahead. A side from that Riot wants to make other champions learning curve better but this basic Demacian idiot is just so simple its hard to find a right way to balance him because of his simplicity. Because if they buff him a little, then he is just murder anyone in his path. And he is so trash right now its hard to find a middle ground for him in higher divisions because of his simple design right now. His kit is, how can i put it, unsatisfying to play.

Ahristocats1 votes

Malzahar yes, his kit was soooooooooo binary

/s

IA9hRfpP5q1 votes

The team took note of their old designs so now they release multi-overloaded-all-roles-champions:

Camille

Can jungle Can support Can top

High mobility High damage Self Heal Manaless after lvl 4 Adaptive Passive 80% Stun Knockback

Camille extremes are easy, it is the balance that is difficult.

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