Last Whisper Vs Black Cleaver on AD Carries

masterdragon481·Apr 29, 2015·2 votes·1,399 views

I was just curious about the viability of going for a black cleaver over last whisper. It gives health, CDR, and extra movement speed that a last whisper doesn't.

The only downsides that I see is the 5% less armor pen, higher cost, and worse build path. Are those things bad enough, however, to justify not buying Black cleaver?

I realize it would depend on the adc in question; someone like ashe, vayne, or varus it might be a good idea on, because they are applying multiple auto attacks to kill high armor targets anyway, but on a champ like graves last whisper would probably be better. Thoughts?

22 Comments

MeserionApr 29, 20153 votes

The sad part is if they made black Cleaver only apply to melee it would have been fine...

FalconPawwwwnchApr 29, 20152 votes

Yea probably

An item meant for bruisers going to be abused by ranged champions and then nerfed for everyone again

What else is new

LegacyDAPApr 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yea probably

An item meant for bruisers going to be abused by ranged champions and then nerfed for everyone again

What else is new

No. This item looks like it was made for Jungle off-tanks to me. Volibear

Meep ManApr 29, 20152 votes

Probably not. LW is instant 35% instead of 30% over 6 stacks as well as 5 more AD.

masterdragon481Apr 29, 20153 votes

It has the same ad (40). And the difference between an instant 35% and 30 over 6 stacks isn't as significant on an adc that needs lots of autos to kill a champ anyway. The instant armor pen is definitely better on an adc that relies on burst, like graves or lucian. Yea, the first few attacks are weaker, but are the cdr, health, and move speed worth it on adc's like vayne and ashe?

Z StatisticApr 29, 20152 votes

No because you could buy a pickaxe for the differential and get 65 AD instead of 40. Not to mention if there are targets on the team that warrant BC, your bruiser will already have it.

masterdragon481Apr 30, 20151 votes

I see your point, but if 2 adc's (the same one, for arguments sake) are at full build and one has LW and one has BC, which one would perform better?

Also, the BC is only 700 gold more than lw; that isn't enough for a pickaxe. so you don't have the money to get the extra 25 ad.

I completely agree that, because of LW's price, it allows an adc to buy more on a back (assuming they have the money of course). However I'm more wondering if the extra cost on the BC is worth the number of things you are getting for it.

ALL CHAT SPAMApr 29, 20151 votes

yeah but it messes up your damage output and puts it in your team's damage output. I prefer LW simply because I like doing the most damage at the stats screen

KMannnnn1Apr 29, 20151 votes

It depends on how quickly the ADC in question could apply the stacks. Caster type ADCs are able to apply the full armor shred in a shorter period of time than autoattack focused ADCs, and since they tend to be shorter range as well, the HP would go a long way on them.

If you ask me, Graves Lucian and Sivir are probably the best ADCs to buy it on, since they have plenty of low CD spells that let them apply stacks very quickly, and to multiple targets.

masterdragon481Apr 29, 20151 votes

I have the opposite thinking. Champions that burst need the instant penetration. Champions that deal damage primarily through auto attacks might get more out of BC.

B3ERApr 29, 20151 votes

It is viable as a semi defensive item on certain ADCs like Lucian. Getting CDR is kinda big for him.

masterdragon481Apr 29, 20151 votes

See Lucian is an example of a champion that NEEDS the last whisper because he bursts and therefore the instant armor pen is much more attractive.

SirsirApr 29, 20151 votes

Hm, I would think that with the WAY he bursts, lots of damage sources at once, and the fact that he benefits from CDR more than most ADCs, it would be a decent pickup.

masterdragon481Apr 30, 20151 votes

Maybe.......I think the fact that his first Q and two passive procs would be significantly weaker with a BC would hurt him a lot.

DJ Di0Apr 29, 20151 votes

I can see Ashe building it if her Q applies it quicker.

Also, I tried it on Jinx today just to see how good it is with item 3252

It's not that bad on her, imo, and helps her kiting a lot, while also meshing well with her passive.

IllumanatiObamaApr 29, 20151 votes

You should only by BC when an adc has AOE physical dmg like Graves or MissFortune . Even then it's better on fighters like MonkeyKing and Renekton , My opinion is for your jungle or top laner to build it and you build lw to get the most damage possible.

MrBuffingtonApr 29, 20151 votes

I've been debating this in my head for a while, specifically for the Ashe rework. I don't think BC is better than LW for most ADCs; most don't have a way to apply the 6 stacks quickly and would probably rather have an instant 35% instead of having to attack a champion for a while just to get 30%. AD carries are generally focused on dealing as much damage as possible, so outside a few circumstances, like if you're a largely AD team and you're playing MF or someone who can apply a lot of stacks really quickly, I don't really see it being optimal, especially over LW. Furor boots also give better ms, especially since phage bonuses are halved for ranged champions, so that's probably the optimal choice if you need to kite better. CDR isn't really necessary on most ADCs since they're much more AA based than most champions; it's definitely nice on many champions, but given the option, most ADCs will go for straight damage on their autos than CDR. ADCs are pretty unique as a class as they pretty much will single-mindedly prioritize maximizing their DPS over anything else, and more often than not their autos will be dealing more damage than their spells in the mid-late game.

The reason I'm debating this on Ashe, however, is because her Q will stack the cleave passive incredibly quickly, so she isn't losing as much as other ADCs trying to stack up the cleave passive. She benefits from the other stats as well; the extra health for survivability, the tiny bit of MS since she's pretty immobile, the CDR since her cooldowns outside her max rank W are pretty long. Even then, though, in a strictly optimization sense, I don't know if that outweighs getting LW for the more immediate/less situational armor shred, and just getting Furor boots to help kite and having a little gold left over to put towards a lifesteal item/more damage. Situationally it'll probably be very good; on an AD heavy team building Runaan's + BC just to shred everything in sight sounds very powerful, but I don't know if it will be core/default.

Sire HippingtonApr 29, 20151 votes

BC is only an option if you can use the cdr really well like on sivir or lucian, and even then you loose out dps as you need to hit 6 times till you finally get the full pen while LW grants the 35% from the very first hit till the last.

It also isn't great on graves as a LW replace as he does mostly upfront burst befor any stacks are applyed. The new TBC is really more a bruiser/tank item than an adc item.

SirsirApr 29, 20151 votes

Well you need the CDR for it to be worth the extra cost. So...

Ezreal, Corki (Gatling op), Lucian, MF, Sivir, Varus. Those are the maybe candidates, any other ADC you probably want LW. Plus you have to figure ADCs sometimes have to switch targets so they may never reach the stack cap

Thresh 2 FreshApr 29, 20151 votes

Would it be plausible to get both for any ad carry? Or would that not scale well?

SirsirApr 30, 20151 votes

Cleaver would reduce Whispers effectiveness. Plus ADCs generally don't rely on their skills Base damages as much as raw autos, which require more concrete stats.

masterdragon481Apr 30, 20151 votes

Not only would that scale badly, but it would really mess up builds. You would have to trade off another rather important item to make room for both.