This isn't the way to fix Ryze

masterdragon481··31 votes·2,841 views

Here we go again on the roller coaster that is Ryze's viability. Just like the patch notes said, we've seen this one before. If this buff is enough, he will dominate and get nerfed again. If this wasn't enough, then buffing him didn't really do much, and we will see another buff that will then put him over the edge.

I would like propose a completely different solution to the problem Ryze is presenting. Ryze is merely the largest offender of a mechanic in League of Legends that I believe needs to change. This is a bit wordy, so I apologize to anyone reading that wanted a short read. I'll put a TL;DR at the end, but that won't include the logic behind what I'm thinking and might sound a bit whiny, so I encourage you to read the whole thing.

I think that single target, targeted spells should draw minion aggression the same way that an auto attack does. Essentially, any attack that cannot, under any circumstance other than being out of range, be dodged should draw minion aggro. Skill shots and aoe skills that aren't guaranteed to hit would function the same as they do now. As an example, the first bounce of Katarina's Q and her E would draw aggro, but her W would not.

So why am I suggesting this?

Minion aggression in the early levels of the game are incredibly significant damage wise. This allows single target, targeted spell users to harass in the minion wave without threat of taking that early damage; melee champions (or even ranged auto attackers) cannot respond without drawing minion aggro. Now, while I think that a ranged champion should have an advantage over a melee champion unless the melee champ closes the distance, I don't think ranged champions should be able to use minions as a dps threat in a way that cannot be duplicated. The same sentiment applies with the ranged auto attacker. Sure, one could argue that is an advantage of picking those champions, but I think that this is an advantage they shouldn't have, but more on that below.

In addition to this unnecessary damage advantage minion aggression applies, there is another effect of drawing minion aggro that is just as important. When red champion auto attacks blue champion, blue champions minions begin attacking red champion while red minions continue to attack blue minions. In other words, drawing minion aggro pushes your lane. This can have negative effects, especially in the laning phase of the game, because it forces you to invest in vision and be more careful of enemy jungle pressure. Champions using single target, targeted spells are not being affected by either effect of minion aggression at all.

Now, the argument for why auto attacks draw aggro and spells do not is because, typically, spells cost mana to use and are not used as frequently as an auto attack. While I understand where this thought process is coming from, I disagree with auto attacks being that much more powerful at the stage of the game that this change would affect. Auto attacks don't scale up as quickly as skills do in the early stages of a game, and I believe this is where the above argument breaks down.

It is safe to assume that champions can reach level 5 in a lane without too much action. At this time, Ryze Q will be doing 95+40%ap+6.5%max mana (which becomes 128+40%ap) , Vladimir's Q will be doing 160+60%ap, Swain E will be doing 176+91%ap, and Malazhar's E will be doing 200+80%ap. I chose these champions as examples because they are, imo, the champions who would get hit the hardest by this change. Put in perspective, Cho'gath, with the highest ad growth per level, only has 74 ad (no runes or masteries taken into account here) at level 5.

That means the four ranged champions mentioned do damage around 200% or even close to 300% of an auto attack at level 5. And they do this without drawing minion aggression, therefore ignoring all the problems minion aggression brings (damage from minions and wave pushing). To be clear, the fact that their abilities do that much more damage than an auto attack isn't the problem, they are trading off a resource in some cases (mana or energy) and putting an ability on cool down as well. Its the fact that they are as easy to apply as an auto attack (you just click on the champion) and have considerably less penalty attached to them. One advantage (the damage) is enough, the addition of the second advantage (lack of minion aggro) is unfair, and I don't consider resource costs and cool downs a big enough penalty to justify that second advantage.

Bringing this back to just Ryze, making his Q (and W, and first cast of his E) apply minion aggro would fix the current problem he presents. Right now his numbers are either too low, and he oom's before he does meaningful damage to an opponent, or they are too high and he dominates top with no answer. If his Q's drew minion aggro, Ryze could be buffed but would still have to question whether he should engage. In other words, the threat of taking on minion aggro might help curb his bullying top lane.

That's it, that's my schpeel, if you read the whole thing, I thank you. I would love to hear what other people think about what I have said, if I made any mistakes, or if you think I overlooked anything.

TL;DR Single target, targeted spells should proc minion aggro the same way that an auto attack does. The ability to apply damage at range that cannot be avoided and doesn't draw minion aggro is unfair.

32 Comments

Talamare12 votes

Why only single target should provoke? Why not ANY damage?

Besides it hardly matters, ranged auto attacks rarely provoke much aggro anyways

masterdragon4814 votes

I have only targeted (haha) single target, targeted spells because in terms of application, they are the same as auto attacks and should suffer from the same drawbacks.

For example, Lux E can miss. In that case, the invested mana and cool down was completely wasted because the spell did no damage.

I think dodging is acceptable counter play to skills. I'm arguing that abilities like Ryze Q that are essentially super powerful auto attacks because the ability of the opponent to dodge them is the same as an auto attack.

If you are an adc (caitlyn) laning vs a swain (Im just making it up, I don't actually expect these champions to lane against eachother), I think its unfair that your auto attacks will draw minion aggro but swain can hit E, walk away from you, and do roughly 2.5 times the damage you will be able to do. At this point, he can stand in the minions and if you auto him, his minions will auto you for more damage, and start pushing your wave toward his tower. I think it matters vs ranged champions as well, but not to the degree it hurts melee.

OJ1911 votes

{quoted}

Why only single target should provoke? Why not ANY damage?

Besides it hardly matters, ranged auto attacks rarely provoke much aggro anyways

except that one time when it does, and the minions completely ignore your minions and chase you all the way to your tower for some retarded reason...

yes this has happened to me in mid, and yes it sucked.

Spacesuit Spiff5 votes

Yeah. Also, we have a problem where he's a lane bully that scales into an unstoppable monster. One of those factors should be toned down.

masterdragon4811 votes

I think this is the way to fix the early bullying, I don't really have a problem with his late game scaling; its just his avenue to get there is either too easy or too hard, and changing numbers isn't going to fix that.

Krys Star5 votes

The buff is likely to push him into the right direction of being playable while they continue on his rework. Whether the buff or nerfs he get are satisfactory wont really matter since Riot's reworking him in the future.

masterdragon4811 votes

I singled Ryze out a little because he is the champion that was changed in the patch notes. But there are other champions that have the same mechanic and its unfair on all of them.

For example, Vladimir is thought of as one of the most toxic laners in the game, and this is due largely to his Q.

The mechanic is what I have the most problem with, and I think its giving more power than it should be to the champions that are abusing it. Ideally, Ryze wouldn't even need a rework with this change. And this change would arguably be balancing more than just Ryze, like a rework will do. I think a mechanical change would be more effective than a single champion rework.

Bard in a Diaper3 votes

yup its pretty dumb and why gangplank is so bad in lane, his Q counts as an autoattack so he cant harass with taking massive aggro. its annoying. and then when you play a MU like ryze vs gangplank and you both harass eachother at the same time but he wins the trade because of this dumb mechanic you are just like what the fuck?

DreadPirateChris2 votes

Ah. I like this proposal. It does seem like a weird and unfair discrepancy between auto-attackers and casters. Not just with Ryze but with various burst-mages and assassins, it creates an opportunity for free harass in what would be a positional error for most other champs.

masterdragon4811 votes

Thank you, you put that very nicely. I agree that auto attackers end up with many advantages over casters. But in the early part of the game where Ryze either makes it or breaks it, this advantage is very unfair.

And no, it isn't just Ryze. I mentioned Vlad, Swain, and Malzahar (though you don't really see him) as other abusers of this mechanic. There are more though, and some of them are even melee champs (Olaf E). I think it is an incredibly unfair advantage when your options of avoiding the spell are just as slim as avoiding an auto attack. Though I suppose a change like this would advantage nocturne and sivir, due to their spell shields. But that, imo, is a small price to pay for what is ultimately a balancing factor.

BakugoBestBoy2 votes

The recent buff isn't their attempt to "fix" Ryze, it's just a small buff to make him more playable while they work on his rework. Wait for that and if you're still upset repost.

masterdragon4811 votes

Fair point, but like I said, I only mention Ryze because he showed up in the patch notes. He is the prime example of a minion aggression mechanic that I believe needs to be changed; this is what I'm more upset about and Ryze's rework is completely irrelevant in light of it. More to the point, unless Ryze's rework contains ALL skill shots, he will still be a valid candidate for my criticism; champions should not have this kind of an advantage over other champions.

flibitydoo1 votes

Why not give him strong early game mana costs

The reason Ryze builds mana items is not primarily to fix his mana issues. The main use of building the mana stat is to scale up the damage on all of his spells.

Lategame the his mana bar does nothing to gate him and he tends to float at like, 90% max mana for the rest of lategame (unless you finish your seraphs and then finish your muramana and use the toggle). A large part of his mana bar goes unused lategame. Giving him higher mana costs early and late would make him less of a lanebully and less facerolly lategame.

masterdragon4812 votes

His mana costs were nerfed at one point, and he fell outta favor then because he couldn't scale to late game; he lost too early because he couldn't do anything.

I don't have a problem with how Ryze scales or with his late game. My problem is the advantages he has in the early lane phase by being able to harass without drawing minion aggro in ways most champions cannot retaliate to.

Instead of changing numbers around, which result in Ryze being either too strong or too weak, allow his numbers to be strong, but attach other implications of using his spells in lane that will curb his bullying behavior. This implication is minion aggro if he attacks an enemy champion with spells that are essentially akin to an auto attack.

shadowhunter44441 votes

I see where you're coming from, and feel that maybe certain spells should, and others should not. Feel free to correct me if you feel otherwise, but I feel that some balanced spells would have a disadvantage with this system. If you just changed the effect of certain abilities to pull aggro, however, then the problem could be circumnavigated. I really like where you're coming from, looking at the problem from a view that is rarely seen. I applaud you.

masterdragon4811 votes

Thank you! And thanks for reading. I agree that only certain spells should draw aggro, namely, single target, targeted spells. Mostly because I can't think of any targeted AOE skills in the game; I just don't think they exist. The list of champions with spells like these isn't long, and I honestly can't think of a spell that fits this category that I think shouldn't draw aggro.

There are, of course, a few weird spells and interactions that would need to be looked at more carefully (like Ahri W) but in general, I think I've limited the number of spells I would be changing a small number as it is.

More specifically, could you give examples of spells that you don't think should, or some that you do think should, under the condition that the skills be single target skills that are not skill shots?

Ayame Isaki1 votes

How about Akali Q and R? Her early game is already terrible, they would have to buff her if your proposal was implement (which is a can of worms no one wants to get into). Or, are you restricting this to only spells that cost mana as opposed to rage/energy/resourceless?

masterdragon4811 votes

No, Akali would suffer from this change, because I am not restricting this change to just spells that cost mana. While this would be bad for Akali, the overall health of the game would be improved.

If Akali needs to be changed as a result of this, then by all means change her. But I don't think she should have the advantage of being able to spam Q against melee opponents with no risk of repercussion.

This change would be a major undertaking, no argument there, but overall I think its an important project to be worked on; you are giving a large number of champions a large amount of free power where it may not have been intended (I don't think a lot of people have thought about the effects of minion aggro as I have here, though that may be a little egotistical).

I would like to point out though, that Ryze, Vlad, Swain, and Akali are all champions that have taken a LOT of heat for being toxic and binary in the past; perhaps forcing them to follow the same rules as their fellow champions can help smooth out that behavior.

Ayame Isaki1 votes

Akali's recent nerfs ruined her game play, exacerbated her famine problems and only slightly dulled her feast problems (the bar to snowball is higher, but once there, her power is only slightly less than it was prior to 5.2, mostly because her kit is too damned clunky now, otherwise there would be no noticeable depreciation in power for a fed Akali sans the chase range nerf).

The problem is she is binary; you want to deal with some champion's strong early game (Ryze) who also happen to binary at the expense of those that suffer due to their binary nature (Akali).

Spamming Q is not something Akali can do (are you confusing her with certain other mana-less champions?); if she is using it without proc-ing she will be energy starved. She has to be in melee range to proc (counterplay/risk/reward). Additionally, the damage on Q is back loaded, not front loaded; the detonation is far more dangerous than the application, so not proc'ing Q makes her annoying but not dangerous.

In order to go through with your change, they would have to buff Akali (as an Akali main, nerfs/buffs are not the answer to her problems) or finally fix her E to synergize with her kit and softens the binary nature of her existence (so much this, regardless of your idea; E needs to require some sort of skill or timing to introduce counterplay and provide reward for using it well).

masterdragon4811 votes

I will agree with you 100% that Akali's kit design isn't very good, and the result is her feast/famine problems. I will also agree that she will need significant changes if my change happened. But I don't have a problem with that.

I don't think its fair that Akali is capable of abusing the mechanic of minion aggression. I think that advantage needs to be removed simply to promote fair game play not just in the case of Akali, but across all champions. If Akali has to be overhauled as a result, that's fine with me.

DreadPirateChris2 votes

TBH, I think Akali would be largely unaffected. She already has to AA to proc her Q which would draw aggro anyway. Her ult is too weak to ult to someone and -not- also take the AA-markproc as part of your burst, you'd lose every trade if you tried that. And she already has the shroud to hide under which means she can already drop minion aggro on demand. (Of course she hold the shroud until the right time, but that's already part of her pattern.) She might draw minion aggro a half-second earlier with the change but it would make little difference.

Kat would be more affected since she -can- put out a fair bit of damage (the vast majority of her burst) without an AA, and can proc her mark without an AA (for now). She can also shunpo away to her own minions, so I don't think it would be crippling but it would affect her patterns more than Akali who already has to deal with the minion aggro.

shadowhunter44442 votes

It was actually Akali I was thinking of. Spells that have little value without High risk anyway don't need more risk. I feel it could be more comprehensive to make this change to specific spells. It would be a little more memorizing, but nothing huge.

masterdragon4811 votes

Well, I think going champion by champion in this case is very inefficient and time consuming, not to mention impractical from a programming point of view. And like DreadPirateChris pointed out a little farther down, Akali is likely to draw minion aggro anyway from detonating her Q, which is going to draw aggro regardless.

In any case, however, I still maintain that removing the unfair advantage should take priority over individual champion balance.

Hard Penetrator1 votes

He will get reworked in couple of months. His Q will be a skillshot. This change is just a band aid to get more data about ryze in current season,

masterdragon4811 votes

Edit: Whoops I forgot that the posts go in opposite order now, so you were the first to make the comment. I apologize.

Again, your comment is very similar to 2 of our colleagues earlier. I would assume that you guys just read the TL:DR but thats okay. My response will be the same:

I singled Ryze out a little because he is the champion that was changed in the patch notes. But there are other champions that have the same mechanic and its unfair on all of them.

For example, Vladimir is thought of as one of the most toxic laners in the game, and this is due largely to his Q.

The mechanic is what I have the most problem with, and I think its giving more power than it should be to the champions that are abusing it. Ideally, Ryze wouldn't even need a rework with this change. And this change would arguably be balancing more than just Ryze, like a rework will do. I think a mechanical change would be more effective than a single champion rework.

Hard Penetrator2 votes

I doubt I was a first person that put this info here but anyway, you are right and this change won't fix Ryze. I just wanted to point out that Riot knows about this. I don't want to sound pessimistic but Riot rarely takes ideas like yours into account. It would heavily change laning phase for numerous champions that are fine. (Like Vlad that has terrible early game).

I just hope that they won't try to mess up Ryze skills like they did with you know who.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

He's getting a rework, specifically he will be the next champion to be reworked.

Right before Poppy.

masterdragon4812 votes

You said something very similar to someone above, so I apologize, but I'm going to just cut and paste my answer there:

I singled Ryze out a little because he is the champion that was changed in the patch notes. But there are other champions that have the same mechanic and its unfair on all of them.

For example, Vladimir is thought of as one of the most toxic laners in the game, and this is due largely to his Q.

The mechanic is what I have the most problem with, and I think its giving more power than it should be to the champions that are abusing it. Ideally, Ryze wouldn't even need a rework with this change. And this change would arguably be balancing more than just Ryze, like a rework will do. I think a mechanical change would be more effective than a single champion rework.

Remlap12231 votes

Calm your tits, they're just giving him a small buff before they rework his kit. You, uh, you do realize that he's next on the list right? Since they've already updated Kassadin?

masterdragon4812 votes

To repeat what I have said a few times at this point, I made Ryze a scapegoat here because he was mentioned on the patch notes. But you are missing the bigger point I'm trying to make here; the problem that he is taking advantage of is being abused by far more than just Ryze, and it is unfair to continue to allow champions to do this in general.

Band aid Ryze all you want until you rework him, that's fine. I don't really care about that. I care about the fact that an unbalanced mechanic that is giving a group of champions an advantage and there is no plans to change that. Ryze is just a big example of this mechanic at work.

JedenVojak1 votes

While this seems like a good idea in theory, in practice it doesn't matter that much - vayne or gnar who draws minion aggro just have to run back a little bit to shake the minions. They're not inside them like a melee champion is, and they don't have to deal with as much minion blocking the way melee champs do.

That said, I don't fundamentally have a problem with your suggestion. It seems fine enough.

masterdragon4811 votes

I agree that the effect this has on ranged champions is less that on melee. However, that doesn't invalidate the point that ranged shouldn't have that advantage over melee. It also doesn't validate certain ranged champions having advantage over other ranged champions.

Its completely fair that vayne or gnar draws minion aggro and has to back off to drop the aggro, but they do this at the cost of some health and by pushing their lane. This compared to a Vlad or a Swain, who put a much larger amount of damage down and do NOT have to deal with the damage from minions or the negative effect of pushing their wave is where I believe the problem lies. This is problem is many times worse when talking about melee champs.

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