Mage changes are confirmed to be a result (in part, at least) of mage dominance in pro play. Really?

Naalith··157 votes·22,717 views

From RiotMadnessHeroo himself: "I'm personally very in favor of the mana changes. Mages have been dominant Mid lane in competitive for multiple seasons now, and their ability to successfully farm out the wave via PvE wave clearing has been a huge component. I think this is a necessary step if we are going to get other classes back into Mid in competitive, which is clearly a win to me (no single class should dominate a position for multiple years)."

Are you kidding me Riot? I've been playing this game since season 1 and from season 1 to season 6 or so I played with the same group of friends. As of season 6 they started departing and by Worlds of season 7, most of them are gone. Stupid changes like this drive people who don't care about pro play away. Sure you can chalk some of them up to have burned out or lost interest over the years, but the same points were brought up by most of them when they quit or started playing significantly less (from 10s of games a night to a couple games every few months).

  1. I don't give a shit about pro play and stuff I like doing keeps getting hit as a result of what pros do

  2. Interesting champions with unique mechanics keep getting sledgehammered.

  3. Off meta strategies are becoming increasingly difficult (tied to 3)

  4. I can't single handedly pop off anymore/ I can't fall back on my fed teammates as a safety net if I did really bad this game.

Each and every one of these bullet points has continued to be exacerbated over the last three or so years and the mage update further continues this trend.

  1. Ruining (or in kinder words, nerfing the shit out of) an entire class of champions simply because they've been in pro play for years is absolutely stupid. ADCs have been in pro play since the meta of League stabilized, support champions and tanks have also been staples for that long. Why mages? Artificially making it so assassins can be taken mid in pro just to spice things up for the viewerbase doesn't outweight the millions of players who genuinely do not care about LCS. Even if this was done for the Worlds final I would still say hell no.

  2. Lots of mages have some of the more interesting kits. While some of my friends quit because other unique champions like Kalista, Kindred, Aurelion Sol, and Azir kept getting hit (again, due to pro play...) lots of mages definitely fall in that category. Generally they all have unique ways of bursting and unique mechanics to play around with independent of each other, and are a lot less samey than the right click class or the damage sponge class. Not to say ADCs or tanks can't be interesting, but there is a lot less variance in what their kits do. Why mages?

  3. This bullet point may not be hit as much by the mage changes but it's still affected, and even if it wasn't it's worth putting here for visibility's sake. The mage jungles in particular (Fiddle for example) are being hit with these changes when they already have the most garbage jungle item of the and mid lane mages like Ziggs can't rely on just shoving towers early instead of fighting if they can't waveclear as much. Mages traditionally don't have many off builds but those who do are still getting hit and when a champion's power is decreased overall, off-meta strategies tend to be the first things that disappear because their viability was hanging on by a thread to start with.

  4. Say waveclear is boring, sure, but you know what is waveclear does? It helps mages farm and get back into the game to fall back on their teammates. If a mage gets who is behind is trying to come back but run out of mana because they are down on items they have no kill pressure either. People on the boards who complain that the game is too team-oriented and that there is no way to stop the snowball are going to be even more pissed by these changes, especially if they're mid mains. It's just another stupid change to make the game more snowbally, because those who are behind will run out of mana faster.

Ultimately, I just don't get what Riot is doing. I usually jump to their defense and if I am critical of what they do it's usually when they rework a champion I love or let the game stagnate for months because of pro play, like when the Ardent Censor meta was forced on us for months and months because of Worlds (a timeframe a bunch of my friends quit in by the way). The changes to the game the last few patches from the mage items update to the Statikk nerf have started moving the game in a positive direction and given me hope Riot is finally listening to the playerbase, but I just cannot agree with these mage changes. I'm not even a mage main, I main jungle in ranked and even though I play almost every role equally in normal games (99% of what I play) I see no benefit for the health of the game in artificially nerfing a class just because of pro play. Call waveclearing frustrating all you want, but there's about a million more frustrating things about this game than mages cockblocking tower pushes and the most annoying parts of all are being exacerbated as a result of these changes. If you're not going to make pro balance separate from the game the other 99.9% of players play, you can't keep making changes that make the game so unfun for the vast majority of us.

138 Comments

SnyperWulff66 votes

So, they wanna fuck over mage, because they've been to dominant... Well, let's hope those bot lane changes they keep talking about shove adcs out of bot lane. Would be fun to not have a two item ad wrecking everyone with auto attacks.

Dorans Pants7 votes

{quoted}

So, they wanna fuck over mage, because they've been to dominant... Well, let's hope those bot lane changes they keep talking about shove adcs out of bot lane. Would be fun to not have a two item ad wrecking everyone with auto attacks.

can´t wait for these nerf turning out to be buffs in disguise.

Sasogwa54 votes

no single class should dominate a position for multiple years

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/023/824/baINLAUH.jpg

Riot please

Battalion11 votes

They're just upset at Crittlestick's rise to dominant glory once again.

SwiftKitten8848 votes

From RiotMadnessHeroo himself:

"I'm personally very in favor of the mana changes. Mages have been dominant Mid lane in competitive for multiple seasons now, and their ability to successfully farm out the wave via PvE wave clearing has been a huge component. I think this is a necessary step if we are going to get other classes back into Mid in competitive, which is clearly a win to me (no single class should dominate a position for multiple years)."

i dont think i have ever said this about any riot employee... but

IS HE OUT OF HIS FUCKING MIND? mages dominant mid lane? OF COURSE THEY'RE FUCKING DOMINANT MID LANE, IT THE ONLY PLACE THEY EVEN EXIST IN THIS GAME. EVERY SINGLE MID LANE EXCEPT 3 ARE MAGES (Talon Zed Yasuo )

there are ZERO mages in any other role except support. and the mass consensious is Brand Malzahar Zyra and other mages aren't really champs people want to see in support anyways.

thats like saying well it looks like junglers have been dominating the jungle lately, we need to get some other classes in there as well. also supports seem to be crowding out every other class in the support role, this can't be allowed and we need to address this.

hhaavviikk33 votes

and ADC's have not been just dominant but the only viable option in bot lane since 2010, what is this bollocks

NineTailedMystic32 votes

Fuck competitive.

FuzzyLumps26 votes

This change was actually the nail in the coffin for me. Unless they nerf every other class in not coming back to League. It gets more frustrating and less fun to play with every patch. They play favorites way too much.

xShiNjiNx24 votes

I’m usually the last guy to defend mage players and their cries, but holy shit, why before ADCs? And for the reasons mentioned. Holy fk !!!!

LightIsMyPath22 votes

I feel cheated on. Every single champion I play and enjoy is a mage, and most of them are not even doing ok this season (lux syndra lissandra karma Sona). They are nerfing my whole champion pool to hit ryze anivia and taliyah.. I hope things won't be as dire as they look on paper. I never even thought about quitting but if they end up removing my whole champion pool from viability I will have to

FrostQueensPlane21 votes

The disgusting thing is IT'S NOT MAGES, IT'S AZIR AND RYZE AND NOW TALIYAH. Calling these people stupid would be an insult to stupid people. Oh btw ADCs since season 1 friends, where are the ADC nerfs.

You keep focusing on boring as fuck competitive and not actually maintaining a good game that people want to play enough to watch your boring as shit LCS, see how well that ends for you retard games.

Packun Flower21 votes

Just another reason to hate and not support the LC$

OP Garen Support20 votes

The same thing they say as bad thing on mages meanwhile ADC's are doing the same but better. It's alright though. We can punish them by not supporting them financially. The game will either die or they will learn that more money is in the game if the costumers are happy.

Blåbæret20 votes

You have 3 mages tops that are being played in pro play lmao. The rest are literally rotting in a ditch. Meanwhile, ADCs decimate entire teams with AAs.

Malix Farwin16 votes

Its one thing to make a change for pro play and another when you do not even understand why people are using mages in pro play to begin with. They are dominant because they have more utility than Assassins and mid lane is passive because Junglers clear the jungle fast, healthy, and are waiting on long cooldown for jungle creep respawns.

Thilmer15 votes

(Riot)- So, about these changes I want to introduce in proplay...

(Me)- Then create a proplay server for them and stop screwing my game because someone I don't give a fuck about is using mages a lot in a competition I don't give a fuck about.

AMYS GRAVE12 votes

From RiotMadnessHeroo himself: "I'm personally very in favor of the mana changes. Mages have been dominant Mid lane in competitive for multiple seasons now, and their ability to successfully farm out the wave via PvE wave clearing has been a huge component. I think this is a necessary step if we are going to get other classes back into Mid in competitive, which is clearly a win to me (no single class should dominate a position for multiple years)."

Then were are mages supposed to go? They can't jungle, they'll push bruisers out of top lane, they've already shown that they aren't allowed to support.... Like, wtf?

CasterGilgamesh7 votes

well i guess this is riots way of saying "dont pick them" or "just go in a corner and die"

cocacolalips10 votes

the idea is that you would want to copy what the pros do because they are playing the game optimally and so should you.

if the optimal way to play the game is to pick a mage, shove the wave and roam to gank sidelanes or clear vision, that's what you want to be doing too because that's what wins you games.

and since this winning strategy is deemed unhealthy for the game as a whole (too much pve, not enough pvp) riot is addressing that.

let's be honest, if you are bronze or silver, these changes don't matter because you have no idea what you are doing anyway.

Puppet33r50 votes

That is stupid because mages like Taliyah and AurelionSol were very obviously designed by riot themselves to do just that. And now Taliyah gets doublenerfed(current patch+those stupid changes) as a result and won't be able to do what she was designed to do. Which is funny cause she has no percentage damage and no true damage and her q is easily avoidable and gets blocked by tanks. Her only strength was waveclear strategy. And now she won't even be able to do that.

It would be like removing all lethality from assassin items and telling them: "have fun doing your job killing people". Not to mention that aforementioned assassins do the same thing because riot reworked all their kits to include waveclear in it. These changes are stupid on so many levels when you stop even for a second to think on it.

cocacolalips5 votes

you are overly dramatic, like that kid who cries a river over eating vegetables or seeing a needle. the changes aren't that significant, you'll barely notice them probably, you'll just have to be a bit more conservative with your spells and spend a bit more time being active in lane instead of doing nothing waiting for the next minion wave.

Puppet33r39 votes

Will adcs have to be more conservative with their bullets? Will Zed have to be more conservative with his shurikens? Didn't think so. And those mana changes by themselves are not that big of a deal... sure. The real killer and a testament to riot's stupid transparent "shove assassins into pro games" intent is the cost increase to early mage items. Coming back with a item 1052 and item 1027 against item 3134 assassin is not a joke. Even now with item 3802 or item 3070 you have to be careful but at least you know that you can waveclear and retaliate if he forces a stupid engage. Doesn't look like it will be the case any longer.

Also, roaming IS being active. No one is waiting for the next wave.

cocacolalips4 votes

but adcs champions already have to individually auto attack every minion several times... so do most assassins... those champions don't need to have their waveclear nerfed because it isn't a problem... mages waveclear is... it's not difficult to understand.

Puppet33r32 votes

Yep you are correct poor little adcs can't do anything but right click. None of them have waveclear skills or access those mage items like item 3087(an item that was very specifically marketed as a waveclear option) and item 3085.

The difference is adcs can waste their mana pool to waveclear and then use autos to push further or fight enemy champions. Mages who run oom is just free gold. You can't even push you can only last hit.

cocacolalips2 votes

the discussion is about laning

regardless, zeal items got nerfed and are being looked into further with the adc patch

everything is in the red posts you quoted, come on man, you know that

Puppet33r17 votes
  1. My every point still stands. Stop pretending like adcs don't have waveclear skills. Every one of them has aoe/spammable single target skill that rito shoved in there to make farming more exciting and smooth.
  2. Zeal items never got nerfed. Statikk got a slap on the wrist and that's it. They are still ridiculously cost effective. They still have ridiculous synergy with IE(with no cost to their sustain that adcs had to pay for such power back in the day).
  3. I don't care about next patch or patch after that if my current experience is gonna be shit. If you suddenly want to introduce clear weaknesses to classes you do it to every class and you do it at the same time. Preferably in preseason, when sweeping changes are appropriate and there's time to test it on live servers with little to no consequences to player's elo and sanity.
  4. I never quoted anyone, OP did.
Auz the Ripper13 votes

{quoted}

  1. My every point still stands. Stop pretending like adcs don't have waveclear skills. Every one of them has aoe/spammable single target skill that rito shoved in there to make farming more exciting and smooth.

Nuh uh! Vayne don't have no waveclear skillz and so you're entire point is invalid. /s

Puppet33r3 votes

damn. rekt.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Ashe Doesnt have any powerful waveclear, she cant spam W without running outa mana fast as hell without ER+zeal to keep her going.

MissFortune Also runs outa mana if she tries to spam.

Vayne No waveclear at all.

Draven ^

Caitlyn Runs outa mana if she tries to spam Q, relies on static/hurricane for clearing.

Lucian Same deal as with Ashe.

KogMaw Same as Cait except hes worse off.

Marksmen have waveclear? We could argue that they do if we bring in their items but name me one that isnt a support that doesnt have access to some item that drastically enhances their clearing?

,,,,,Actually even some supports can do it.

Puppet33r3 votes

Just read the post above the one you are replying to. I'm not gonna write it all over again.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

My point was that marksmen cant push in laning phase with no mana, sometimes even if they do have mana they cant push.

They dont need nerfs to hit them there.

And by the time the marksmen obtain those items you linked above the mages will already have enough mana to let them spam nonstop to kill both the marksman and clear a wave at the same time.

And while i do believe static shiv should not exist but the nerfs are still effective, however Ruunan is for all intents and purposes, balanced for the most part except some powerful interactions, but even then it takes the marksman walking forward and often shooting a while to clear the wave.

The problems dont lie in that particular department.

Velasan9 votes

While you're not wrong mages can't spam their mana in lane to clear either. If you're not playing Annie for the refund on Q then you can't just toss your spells into a minion wave. You would land up OOM after 2 minutes.

That's really what the changes are about anyways; early game laning phase. Later in the game you will have bought enough items that mana on a mage doesn't matter or as an ADC you have enough damage to mow down the wave (also possibly Manamune or Essence Reaver).

As for the issue itself... it doesn't bother me that much if they want to keep messing with mana. It used to be required back in season 4 to take the mana regen mastery. For the last couple seasons it was tied instead to a mastery supports were taking. Now with the new runes we have Mana Band and Presence of Mind on top of all the new Lost Chapter items and I'm guessing Riot noticed how much difference there is when mages have extra mana. What bothers me is their reasoning. Instead of just saying oops we gave too much mana to everyone they are saying it's about mages in pro play. Seems to me we've seen more than a few assassins in pro play and there aren't that many assassin mids to pick from to begin with, on top of that they also overlap (if Talon is good then Zed is likely to be good at the same time etc).

I just want them to give a reasoning I can get behind. Otherwise, when discussion starts like this what am I supposed to do besides wonder what is going on and question it?

Trias00010 votes

and stuff I like doing keeps getting hit as a result of what pros do

And the funniest thing is, pro play is still boring as fuck with the same champions in every single match. The most interesting part of a pro game (from entertainment point of view) is the champion select, where you're just waiting to see whether maybe, just maybe, this time they'll pick something different than in 50 matches before. But the answer is usually: no. So why do they even bother trying to balance it? Let them have a class of super OP monsters (as long as they're balanced in solo play) that will be played in every single game. It's not like this will change much.

Dark Nephthys5 votes

{quoted}

And the funniest thing is, pro play is still boring as fuck with the same champions in every single match. The most interesting part of a pro game (from entertainment point of view) is the champion select, where you're just waiting to see whether maybe, just maybe, this time they'll pick something different than in 50 matches before. But the answer is usually: no. So why do they even bother trying to balance it? Let them have a class of super OP monsters (as long as they're balanced in solo play) that will be played in every single game. It's not like this will change much.

Lol yea, you could say the most exciting moment is when in the champion select they start hovering random champions trying to troll the audience that they'll pick them. But what we really get is "Are they going to pick Ryze, Taliyah, or Azir?".

MetalGearTeemo2 votes

I will never NOT slam this game for how much better Dota's character diversity in high level is.

Even the bench warmers have SOMETHING they are best at, and you'll see absolutely bonkers stuff come out of nowhere to hard counter some established lineup.

Verxint10 votes

"No single class should dominate a position for multiple years"

Meanwhile in bottom lane

Battalion8 votes

Out of the 10-13 people I got into league when I got to university, I'm one of 2 that still play. That's been 5 years. We played, I shit you not, 7-8 hours of league every day with full course loads and some of us had part time jobs at that point too. They don't believe it, but graphs don't lie, the game is dying and they can't figure out why. Better buff pro-play.

To make the point:

1st year: 2 quit 2nd year: none quit 3rd year: one kinda flakey 4th year: that one ^ came back full swing 4.5th year: I'm one of 3 that played This year: One guy plays semi-often and I've played a handful of games since December, everyone else jokes about me "still playing cancer". That's what we know the game by, even our foreign friends don't even call it League or LoL anymore, just cancer. Let that fucking sink in.

Spank the Fox1 votes

{quoted}

Out of the 10-13 people I got into league when I got to university, I'm one of 2 that still play. That's been 5 years. We played, I shit you not, 7-8 hours of league every day with full course loads and some of us had part time jobs at that point too. They don't believe it, but graphs don't lie, the game is dying and they can't figure out why. Better buff pro-play.

To make the point:

1st year: 2 quit 2nd year: none quit 3rd year: one kinda flakey 4th year: that one ^ came back full swing 4.5th year: I'm one of 3 that played This year: One guy plays semi-often and I've played a handful of games since December, everyone else jokes about me "still playing cancer". That's what we know the game by, even our foreign friends don't even call it League or LoL anymore, just cancer. Let that fucking sink in.

Ever considered that life eventually got in the way considering you said Year 1 was at the start of uni?

Nah, just the game got shit hehe xd we observe everything in a vacuum.

Battalion9 votes

You're going to assume to talk to me how my friends are? They're a bunch of video-game nerds who are still playing video-games just as often, it's just that they hate league now. Two of them went into the military, Army Intel & Marine Corp Intel, so they don't really play anything anymore. Literally everyone else gets together and plays games still. It's just that you bring up league of legends and suddenly it's a painful laugh. You're arrogant if you think you know my friends more than me. hehe xd

Spank the Fox1 votes

{quoted}

You're going to assume to talk to me how my friends are? They're a bunch of video-game nerds who are still playing video-games just as often, it's just that they hate league now. Two of them went into the military, Army Intel & Marine Corp Intel, so they don't really play anything anymore. Literally everyone else gets together and plays games still. It's just that you bring up league of legends and suddenly it's a painful laugh. You're arrogant if you think you know my friends more than me. hehe xd

Wow what an inappropriate forum for such a long, boring tear jerker mate.

Battalion11 votes

[deleted]

Spank the Fox1 votes

{quoted}

Piss off, you said some stupid shit, go back to your sheep wife.

Lul, poor attempt at racism even though I’m American.

Imagine being 25+ and acting like this.

Beast Brawler7 votes

He actually just said your wife is a sheep, implying you bang animals. Nothing was racist, any racist implications you got were actually you yourself assigning those negative connotations to a race. You're the racist one broski.

statelesskiller8 votes

WAIT WAIT WAIT, no specific class should dominate a lane for multiple seasons. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT BOT LANE? HAVE YOU LOOKED AT ADC? HAVE YOU? HAVE YOU ACTUALLY?

Sahn Uzal3 votes

the very thing they're trying to adress this mid season? Yes, they have looked at it.

Draehl7 votes
  1. Stop balancing so much in favor of pro play.

  2. Considering point #1, if waveclear is such a problem then nerf those specific skills.

  3. Realize that other roles are impacted by your nerfs. Tell me Bard is at all OP and deserves to be subject to the Spellthief nerfs.

no to toxic6 votes

Riot logic: Pro play is constantly picking Mages due to assasins being nerfed and them being so useless sinc they got no damage,waveclear or anything else you want. So let´s nerf mages in a way where nothing really changes for pro play since mages got blue even before the nerfs. But there is one positive. New Evelynn skin.

RainXBlade4 votes

Mage changes

Every time I hear that Riot's going to make changes to a certain class of champions, what they mean is that they'll break their legs and tape onto them new ones that are made of plastic and easily fall apart.

DynamiteGazelle4 votes

(no single class should dominate a position for multiple years).

Tristana Vayne Caitlyn Ezreal Lucian KogMaw Ashe Draven Graves Jinx Kalista MissFortune Sivir https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag1o3koTLWM&ab_channel=ThemeGuy

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