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This is for any Riot employees willing to join the discussion (pls discuss)

Sorin Alucard··2 votes·429 views

Edit: I could care less if you like my diction/tone lol None of this is personal towards you guys, the readers, or even individual Riot employees. These are my concerns as a player, and I happen to be passionate about it

First of all , these new runes look TERRIBLE. And after reading this, if im wrong (pls let me be wrong) I hope a Rioter can clear it up. Or, I hope you guys at Riot read this and throw it around your work lol I feel there's too many "yes men" on new rune changes. The honor system, Great, new client, Great, jg plants n herald, Great. BUT THESE NEW RUNES ARE SCARY USELESS

My biggest complaint has to do with what we all know are "Standard" Rune pages for certain classes or champs. IE Standard AD, Standard ADC (AD+Atk Spd), Standard AP etc

Now while I agree with MOST of the points about the negatives of the current system (Buying runes, Some useless mastery abilities in the trees, a LOT of un-used runes, hard for beginners to collect) - Riot's proposal for changes MURDERS all the BENEFITS OF CURRENT RUNES. The ONLY new thing I've been seeing in the new runes is MS, AP or AD based off what is being built, and some cheesy watered down attempts at Keystones. The atk spd keystone CANT be the ONLY way to raise your base atk spd, plus, it requires you to be hitting ENEMIES to gain ATK SPD (RIP ADC's 2018, RIP Yas runes, RIP Teemo Various builds). So my ADC runes will be useless? My Full armor/health page, useless? My purchases, nullified and replaced with absolutely MINIMAL CUSTOMIZATION?????

Gutting the minor adjustments players were making to play champs how they liked and giving us these cruddy, conditional runes/masteries is probably going to be one of the worst changes EVER MADE TO LEAGUE.

just think about it

All those rune pages people became so proud of for adjusting minor stats for various different enemies will now be not an option.... Also, you can't just have a raised atk spd, you cant decide you just want to take Nuke runes (All AP), YOU DONT GET OPTIONS WITH YOUR STATS.

But we get free, temporary boots? We get runes that don't add anything til we've built things? A new keystone (meteor) that doesn't even proc for guaranteed hits like TLD? A supp pixie that does minimal healing/dmg to enemies? WHY WOULD I WANT THAT STUPID THING???? FUK THAT I WANT 28% atk spd buff that I traded off early AD dmg for, I want FULL AP Runes for the rare times I know i can nuke my opponent at lvl 2, at the price of having no defense when I screw up. Do you see my point? Current runes offer customization and trade-offs that fit with the WHOLE playerbase. Now, they want to give us pre-packaged, half ass stat adjustments and we will be more "build locked" than we've ever been.
We are going from a Menu of what you want to "pick one of 3 happy meals, but YOU pick a toy!

And some champions will be complete trash, as you won't have build options that they NEED to be viable. Riot has mentioned this will support off meta. How? oooooo i build more ap on yi so NOW MY RUNES GIVE ME AP hehe

And where is the word on the compensation for ALL the rune pages, ALL the builds? Non-existent besides "we'll compensate you somehow" Really? You'll compensate our money? our time? our customizations? We didnt need pixie to or meteor to outplay people into Gold, we just needed the ability to slightly adjust our stats in any of the stat categories you provided, Riot. If we mained someone, we may have built 5 or more custom pages to handle counter-picks, team comps, etc. WHERE IS OUR COMPENSATION FOR THAT?

Pls Riot, think about how many stat adjustments will be absolutely necessary ROSTER WIDE when you cut some of these base stats from runes. Just make your current, base stat runes FREE TO ALL FROM START. If Meteor and Pixie supplemented on top of our current base stat adjustments, I'd be all for seeing how they change things (like Fervor, Bloodlust, TLD did before)

I think you guys are cramming too much into too little space for the sake of combining runes/masteries and its not gonna be easy to fix once you do it. Its gonna be a logistical nightmare, you might as well kiss the past 2 years of numbers and reworks goodbye because it will ALL be unbalanced.

14 Comments

Foxynth1 votes

I want to say that after reading the first paragraph or two, not a lot of people will agree with your post. Almost no one likes the new client. Not a lot of people are fans of the new honor system. And not even a few people have a clue how they feel about how the new runes work. because they're essentially in the pre-beta, if they can even be classed there to begin with. that event is still almost 6 months away.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

I want to say that after reading the first paragraph or two, not a lot of people will agree with your post. Almost no one likes the new client. Not a lot of people are fans of the new honor system. And not even a few people have a clue how they feel about how the new runes work. because they're essentially in the pre-beta, if they can even be classed there to begin with. that event is still almost 6 months away.

Thats fine, im not looking for agreement, I'm looking for discussion. Just because I list what i agree with at start of argument doesn't necessarily mean I'm speaking for the community

IDC if its 6 months away, it looks bad now. If it can be stopped/changed for the better before then, awesome

Do you have anything to add to the actual topic?

Foxynth1 votes

I have a way with words as such that I find myself relatable to many other people when I say something, so all I will say is this: The finders and founders of certain precious gems, like diamonds, rubies and sapphires, don't simply slap it into a hole and call it jewelry. Chefs, cooks and their lot don't drop a slab of carcass on your plate at a restaurant and call it a hearty meal.

As a creator of many people's favorite video game, and you as a player, can't say "surprise me!" and criticize the carcass, the fresh slab of meat you see before they've had a chance to cook it; to polish it. You don't tell someone they're making a mistake before they even make it. Let Riot present to you their finished product and let them change it from there. Tell Riot what you dislike abut their product, but not before they even have a chance to release any more details on it.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

I see your point, but considering a lot of this game gets changed based on feedback, I can't agree. Also, I want to hear it from "the Chef" as to why he'll be changing the seafood restaurant into purely hamburger cuisine. If "the Chef" said "im going to serve a buncha burgers but not seafood come winter" I'm probably going to say "why? you're next door to a burger joint and you serve awesome seafood".

You also assume that the end league product comes from "a master craftsmen", when in reality its tons of teams constantly throwing info and ideas at each other and seeing what feasibly works at all before quality testing. With such a system, constant feedback and discussion of new ideas is paramount to the company survival. Your comparisons don't quite hack it in my book for not discussing the "why" of the changes nor do they justify "lets wait and see".

Foxynth1 votes

I couldn't see this reply because you didn't hit reply lol. But that aside, the chef can't work alone. I did say their lot, which may have been a bit vague which is bad on my part. The Riot team knows they can't cater to everyone with runes because not everyone has the time to play for IP, the money to purchase rune pages and the patience to wait on that just to get a single decent rune page. As about 85% of my fellow players will agree that runes can be absolutely gamechanging and that runes are EXTREMELY expensive.

Put into perspective, our chef does not want their customers to be dissatisfied waiting for EVER for their condiments, but it also doesn't help having to pay 7 bucks a pop either. Just purchasing my single extra rune page and all my runes cost me about three 6300 champions that I could be playing right now, rather than having a relatively passive aspect of the game be boosted by a marginal amount.

And yes, Riot does make changes on feedback on their game, but where does feedback come from? It comes from trial and error, the actual "Taste Test" of the beta testing, and from that you can't just have a random customer off the street try out your food if you're well known, you take it from the conisseur, the person most experienced in the field; in our case, extremely high elo and professional players.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

I couldn't see this reply because you didn't hit reply lol. But that aside, the chef can't work alone. I did say their lot, which may have been a bit vague which is bad on my part. The Riot team knows they can't cater to everyone with runes because not everyone has the time to play for IP, the money to purchase rune pages and the patience to wait on that just to get a single decent rune page. As about 85% of my fellow players will agree that runes can be absolutely gamechanging and that runes are EXTREMELY expensive.

Put into perspective, our chef does not want their customers to be dissatisfied waiting for EVER for their condiments, but it also doesn't help having to pay 7 bucks a pop either. Just purchasing my single extra rune page and all my runes cost me about three 6300 champions that I could be playing right now, rather than having a relatively passive aspect of the game be boosted by a marginal amount.

And yes, Riot does make changes on feedback on their game, but where does feedback come from? It comes from trial and error, the actual "Taste Test" of the beta testing, and from that you can't just have a random customer off the street try out your food if you're well known, you take it from the conisseur, the person most experienced in the field; in our case, extremely high elo and professional players.

Ok i think I need to clarify

  1. paying for runes sucks/ is unbalanced for beginners
  2. there are many, non-used runes (Gold per lvl, who rocks that? lol)
  3. Masteries are definitely not perfect and are constantly being tossed back and forth from the "viable" and "op" piles

So, with that being said, yes changes need to be made and I'm glad they are trying SOMETHING. This post is specifically about base stat runes/base stat adjustments before game. I'm saying the "Something" being advertised as "the change/the fix" will raise inherent problems beyond what was being fixed in the first place. Yes, we will get a "taste test" eventually, but if I the consumer don't even find "the idea" appetizing, that restaurant is SOL either way. But away from food and crafts (we could go all day it seems XD)

Math. All the champions' ratios and internal stats apart from runes/masteries have been getting balanced this whole time with base-stat changes of runes taken into account. This new system has shown no indication of the same range of customization or options. Where do the ADC's stand when they'll all lose 15% atk spd and 7-8 AD? They greatly need that extra atk spd. The only option shown so far is a weak keystone that is dependent on combat, not on build (1 ex of many major possible problems). That means they will all either need buffs or nerfs. With a whole class needing changes, it will domino through the roster, getting increasingly more difficult to balance mathematically the more unique and "niche" the character is (because balance is a relative function). The Keystones just look weak imo, and if they are replacing my crucial MS, ATK SPD, or ARMOR Quints I don't see many of us players who understand building in this game being satisfied with the trade-off.

Thats what my post addresses, I haven't seen these particular problems discussed and I want discussion/clarification to see if its even worth it to play next season. I know that some characters require different builds to be viable for climbing period. You can't expect to do well on some characters with limited build options. So, is Riot going to limit our build options for the sake of making them free to all at start? I see that hurting more than it fixes with the "current" playerbase. If I'm wrong, and they've got a plan already in place, I HAVENT SEEN OR HEARD IT. I'd like to get those answers, open that discussion, and find out if Riot was even considering the problems I've mentioned

Foxynth1 votes

Food is my favorite, obviously. XD And thank you for clarifying. What I grasped from "These runes look like they suck" and "I'm concerned with the new runes jeopardizing my playstyle and/or gameplay" were two completely different ideas. x3 Word choice is everything, you know, and it can look like you're saying one thing when you mean the opposite or something else entirely. Glad you weren't super toxic about my argument though.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

Haha yeah I understand the originial post is a bit ranty lol I should've had my nicotine before writing it XD

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Riot is definitely considering your point. I don't agree with the tone of your post at all, but I'm willing to give you that it will throw some balance out of whack. What I will online next is why that's a good thing.

You say that it's going to strongly influence champs like Yasuo and Teemo. You're right, and that's why they are doing it. Trying to balance all these champs around the wide range of runes and masteries they could take it a HUGE pain. Gating the power from Runes will allow them to get these champs into a more generally viable spot.

I believe them that the main thing is to concentrate the power from runes and masteries into a fewer number of decisions with greater impact. That's good for the game in the long run. Having the right levers to tune problem cases like Yasuo and Teemo is, in my opinion, going to be a wonderful consequence of the system.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

{quoted}

Riot is definitely considering your point. I don't agree with the tone of your post at all, but I'm willing to give you that it will throw some balance out of whack. What I will online next is why that's a good thing.

You say that it's going to strongly influence champs like Yasuo and Teemo. You're right, and that's why they are doing it. Trying to balance all these champs around the wide range of runes and masteries they could take it a HUGE pain. Gating the power from Runes will allow them to get these champs into a more generally viable spot.

I believe them that the main thing is to concentrate the power from runes and masteries into a fewer number of decisions with greater impact. That's good for the game in the long run. Having the right levers to tune problem cases like Yasuo and Teemo is, in my opinion, going to be a wonderful consequence of the system.

Ok, but so far the only "atk spd" change discussed is a weak keystone that's dependent on "time in combat" vs "flat atk spd" I only see that hurting Yas, Teemo, ADC's, and other champs that NEED atk spd but are not necessarily equipped with survivability. I'd rather have no special abilities and just customizable stat options over that keystone. And thats only 1 stat category, others may benefit so hard we see new "op" picks, but with little customization, challenging what's OP will be extremely difficult. The problems kinda snowball into each other from where I'm sitting.

But if it DOES fix things, AWESOME. In your opinion, how to do you think it will affect your favorite champs?

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Well, to address your specific concern, they can always buff base attack speed. If it turns out Yas needs some attack speed (or adcs, or anyone), all they have to do is buff it. It's an easy fix, is my point, even if it's a nerf at first.

Part of my argument here is that it's very difficult to predict how it's going to affect any individual champs. Because it's going to affect all of them in a big way, it's hard to say which ones are coming out on top, especially before they lock down numbers and specific runes.

The timeline where you are right is the one where there are too few choices for runes, and they benefit certain champs much more than others. I think it's obvious that Riot is working on this so early to try to stop that from happening, so I'm having trouble swallowing this argument at face value. Like I said, it's fine feedback for them, but they've got months to refine it before it launches.

The problems that are still around by then won't be the obvious ones like lack of attack speed on champs. Even if that's a problem, they can fix it. For the record, the only Diamond ADC that I know in real life thinks that keystone is OP af; this all depends on the hundreds of other moving pieces in the system, most of which we haven't seen. He could be wrong or right, and you could be wrong or right, but we don't have the info to make that call right now, imo.

Sorin Alucard1 votes

I DO agree with the not knowing part. The way I approached the post didn't quite convey what I was digging for, which is ultimately more information from Riot themselves. I appreciate your time

I don't think its difficult to predict that without a plan in place to compensate stat loss/build constriction before launch that it will be bad, but I do believe odds are higher a fix is somewhere on their drawing boards. I hope they confirm they do have a plan soon.

thanks for your time and discussion

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yeah, ofc. Like I said, you bring up a good point.

The released material so far has stated that Riot is looking into the stat problem in early game in particular. I think it might even just result in some of the minions and monsters getting tuned down. I would prefer that, tbh.

But yes, I think they will have a plan. If they don't, that will be bad. On that point, we are agreed.

Scary Door1 votes

I partially agree with the OP.

I definitely want diversity in my champion builds at the start of the game. I think it's a very key strategic option to go 29% attack speed Irelia vs a typical AD/Armor/MR page. You just cannot jungle without attack speed runes on most champions. Attack Speed, AP Diana is the way I go for midlane/jungle, but I like that I can have the option to change that. I have a full armor page for the rare cases I go up against an all AD team and I'm playing Malphite. I could go on and on, but the idea is that I want to be able to have that unique flare to my early/mid game that my rune pages provide me with.

Where I'll disagree somewhat is that keystones need to have more diversity than they do now. Realistically no one takes DFT unless you're playing Brand and maybe Teemo. You never take Stormraiders unless you're Cassi, Nasus and perhaps a couple of others. Windspeakers is great on Vlad, Soraka, Taric, Sona and a few other supports, and CoC is completely out of the meta. Basically if it ain't Warlords or Thunderlords it's not going to get utilized by the majority of champions. So that has to change. I sort of hope they keep a couple of the keystones they have now such as Thunderlords, a reworked Fervor and DFT, but there needs to be more variety and uniqueness to them.

It's a bit early to judge though, so even though I am skeptical about nearly every major change Riot does---and for good reason---I'm going to remain fairly neutral here and just take the wait and see approach.

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