I'm sorry but I just don't hate Rengar, nor do I think people should.

Weathered··35 votes·2,812 views

I anticipate some downvotes and arguments, but I hope some people will see my point.

Small rant incoming, but its broken up for ease.

So Rengar. First of all, let me say that I am in Silver 3, and by no means am I an expert on this. Most of my games recently I have been playing Kha'Zix, a lot of which are usually against an enemy Rengar jungle. Look up SlayerTay6 on OP.GG or lolking if you want the winrates against him, kda matchups, or anything else. I have never had issues in a Kha'Zix Rengar matchup, with the exception of the Rengar being outright fed, which every champion can dominate when fed. I feel like he actually has some key weaknesses that people need to use against him. Gonna say it now, Rengar is not overpowered or opressive.


(DISCLAIMER I AM NOT SAYING TO BUFF RENGAR)

Rengar's Q: This actually has some pretty bad base damage stats at early levels. Compared to a lvl 1 dmg of 70 on Kha's Q, it's substantially worse on early clears. I've never had trouble skirmishing with a Rengar at early levels in the jungle, unless he has a clear advantage of another person, health, or I was being an idiot and fighting next to a bush.

Rengar's W: The resistances I think are fine. The damage might scale a little too much with AP (although I've heard AP Rengar is fun). The healing The healing, on the other hand, is different. His healing increases by the amount of health missing. Most Rengar players (to my knowledge) use empowered W often. You have to be smart when facing a Rengar who uses empowered W. What I usually do is use burst to take out a good amount of his health and make him afraid. Usually a Rengar will back up into a bush for a jump, but if you kite right or fight not near bushes, you can avoid a good deal of his burst. After that, try using a CC if you have someone with you to stop him from using empowered W. Then you can use your burst a second time to finish him off.

Rengar's E: An appropriate skill that does what's needed. I do agree that the AD scaling on it is a little much for a primarily CC utility move, but it isn't a lot when you look at all the numbers as a whole.

Rengar's R: Oh boy. This is what most people are complaining about. The "I got killed in 0.01 seconds" posts are all over the place. I recently played a game as Twisted Fate and was camped by a Rengar. I played safe, waited out the camps, and farmed. By the end of the game the Rengar had neglected he rest of his team and screwed over other lanes, which helped me catch up. I built a zhonyas. The death recap shows you the time from the damage dealt to your death, not his travel time from the leap of Rengar's ult. This means there's actually a good window of opportunity to react. I think there was one time that I didn't zhonyas in time, and that was because I was trying to talk to a friend of mine sitting behind me. Without his ultimate, Rengar is near to useless in mid to late game fights. If you time your engages right after you know his ultimate is down, it is really easy to play around his cooldown (even though it is low) and force a fight that is essentially a five on four (or 4.5 if he's building different than burst).

Oh, and try this trick when you see the exclamation points. Have everyone all of a sudden run towards each other and group up as tight as possible. He will most likely mess up the clicks or get cc'ed. (at least in my ELO)


That's my opinion. Rengar is good for assassination, but horrible if you play his weaknesses smartly and fight when you are strong, not him. As long as he isn't hella fed, which is surprisingly avoidable if you play cautiously, Rengar is most likely not going to be a threat. Again, I'm not an expert and have actually not played Rengar myself, only a good deal of Kha'Zix games. If there is something I am missing entire because people in my ELO are just not mechanically or decisionally good, tell me and I can revisit.

The boards are overwhelmingly swayed by a few opinions, and I feel like people find it easier to agree with the "x champion is x" threads. Take a step back and look at things as a whole, and decide for yourself your own opinion ^.^

**Edit: **

Lovely Pants made a good observation that vision is still being looked at and will probably result in trinket changes, meaning Rengar and other champions who rely on lack of vision may be indirectly nerfed.

Vicarious117 mentioned that most of this post applies to assassin Rengar, and is different for bruiser or tanky.

71 Comments

Pasta Help Desk17 votes

Most people don't know what they want they just complain to complain. People hate the feast or famine play style that champs like rengar and riven have but at the same time get pissed off when a champion like malphite can stay relevant all game because of his uliti even though he sucked and didn't do anything meaningful in the early game but die and not CS.

BloodArmagus4 votes

"For a singular champion, I think it's almost embarrassing that Rengar exists in his current form, and we tend to act like it's not an issue. As for the single thing I think is most unhealthy for the game, I'd say its incredible barrier to entry."

kile1472 votes

To be fair that is the personal opinion of a Rioter who also himself said that he's awful at balance. (I don't disagree with him, just pointing out that statement is an opinion with only slightly more weight and validity than the average player)

qetzel1 votes

On the other hand, Rep seems to be fairly good at design. Not perfect, but better than a lot of other developers.

kile1471 votes

True, he'd probably do an excellent job at fixing Rengar's core issues if given a chance.

Weathered1 votes

I remember some floating talk from Meddler (citation needed) that Rengar would have changes in the future, but its not a huge priority.

kile1472 votes

Because both are poor designs, just opposite ends of the spectrum. Rengar is not a problem most of the time and I haven't even had a problem with him yet all season, but that doesn't change the fact that the moment he does become a problem the game starts to feel like absolute shit. He doesn't need nerfs because he's not OP, but he needs a power redistribution away from the .1 second kill towards other aspects of his kit.

Serevas5 votes

Well I would argue any champion is horrible if you play to their weaknesses, so that's not much of a valid point. The reason Rengar is so horrifying for a lot of players is the instant deletion potential that he represents. A truly skilled Rengar will be slipping around the outskirts waiting for the right opportunity to jump in and delete which ever carry is strongest.

I will also say you're right in that the base damages on Rengar's Q are low, but the reason for this is because it's an auto attack modifier.

Kha'zix does 70 base damage, Rengar deals 30 + his base AD which at level 1 is 60 making his level 1 Q actually deal 90 damage. The thing that makes Kha'zix win those early skirmishes is that in the earlier levels when champions are mostly relying on base damages Kha'zix's Q gets the benefit of isolation damage and a lower cooldown. So while Rengar's damages begin to outscale at their base damages at level 2 (Kha'zix Q technically deals 91 damage to isolated targets at level 1), Rengar gets a lot of things that benefit him more than Kha'zix gets. For example Kha'zix doesn't benefit from Critical strikes very much, where Rengar is a monster with critical strike, in fact it's where his instagib potential comes from in the first place.

That's pretty much the reason people say that Rengar has the edge over Kha'zix, unless you're in a vacuum where it's just Kha'zix vs the Rengar, Rengar will scale up better and win the late game in most cases, unless you're team is actually able to keep him down, and usually that doesn't seem to happen in my games.

I've won the matchup before, but when it came to late game I couldn't duel him. It was fine in the beginning, but inevitably he got fed off my ADC early, then transitioned to making my life hell. Sometimes it just happens that way and you can't keep him down, however sometimes your laners know what wards are and protect themselves.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

2 Things:

1- Rengar can instagib with no crit whatsoever. 2- "a truly skilled Rengar will....." OK so if he is TRULY SKILLED shouldn't he LIKE ANY OTHER CHAMP be rewarded as such?

Serevas1 votes

Where exactly did I argue that people shouldn't be rewarded for being skilled at the champion?

Spaceman5pff1 votes

It was rather unclear which way you were arguing with the "truly skilled" comment

Shrek Luigi1 votes

A lot of assassins can instagib without crit, and can carry a team just as hard when picked up by someone who is Truly Skilled at them--whether it's Rengar or not. What are u even arguing about bro lmao

Spaceman5pff1 votes

It sounded like you were trying to say that because a truly skilled rengar could handle grouped teams, that he was too strong, but i was mistaken.

AbusingMyRights5 votes

Oh, and try this trick when you see the exclamation points. Have everyone all of a sudden run towards each other and group up as tight as possible. He will most likely mess up the clicks or get cc'ed. (at least in my ELO)

unless it's AP rengar in which case make like a banana and split

Weathered2 votes

lol xD I totally forgot about that. Man that would be horrid if you didn't realize he was AP and did that.

thats nice2 votes

Or if you have any CC on your team period. Which 99% of teams do.

Rengar ulted lets stack! Meanwhile Malpite is laughing in the background

Wînter Fox4 votes

The problem is that if the enemy team picks Rengar and you're playing ADC or a squishy Support - you're fucked. Period. There's nothing you can do to stop him from 100-0ing you in at least every team fight if the Rengar is played by a semi-concious human being. That means you will always have to rely on your team to take him out quickly and win the 4v4. And we all know how fun relying on your team is in Yolo Queue.

Weathered6 votes

There are ways to avoid a Rengar ult if your team is smart too and uses chat, but I completely agree that there isn't a burst avoiding item like item 3157 for AD champs. Death's dance is about as much as you can get to, and thankfully that is being buffed. Sadly it isn't necessarily an ADC item.

Left Hook Larry2 votes

The biggest counter to rengar is grouping. When he is ulted and you're grouped he can't jump on you just like that

Weathered2 votes

That's what I said in the original post ^.^

Wînter Fox1 votes

Yes, he can. He'll just most likely die in the process. But his job is still done.

FrickendaChicken2 votes

If I'm nautilus, and there's a vayne. if I sit in front of the camera with Sion near Vayne and she stays near us, we are too big for him to click on someone. He can be cc'd MID JUMP. The only damage you can't stop when he lands is the first auto. The adc should physically react to stimuli, and move towards the people with the utility to live. He died, you didn't. he used ONE auto, you're alive.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

No he can't. Not at all

Group up, place a pink. You will see him instantly and he will be either forced to back off or to try to get near and jump. If he goes for it he will just be insta CC'd and bursted. Easy to play against, try it some time

Wînter Fox1 votes

How do you guys not see the problem with this reasoning?

_"Oh just stay together at all times, full health and mana, all CDs ready, ults ready, flash off CD, and make sure you're stocked up on pinks! GA off CD if you have it!" _

That is not a _counter _ to a champion. That is called prep for a raid boss.

Left Hook Larry1 votes

This is the way to beat certain champs (assassins). They thrive off of catching squishies out alone. If you can't adapt then don't play league

Captain Aishi5 votes

defensive stats don't really protect you against rengar honestly... I just have to think back to the game where I checked my death recap and saw 'renger, battle roar 110 damage, basic attack 1833 damage, unseen predator 546 damage, time, 1.33 seconds' and I was the poor lad standing next to the person he ulted while i had about 200 armor and 3k max health :S

Weathered2 votes

That was my point. There isn't a zhonyas active for champions other than AP. Kind of confused why the comment I made above got downvoted O.O

MohawkBird3 votes

[deleted]

Steelflame1 votes

Except that is the same as the reaction time in a lot of cases. He can jump on you at the exact same moment his ! pops up, if he has any stacks on Bonetooth. He can cast his E before he jumps, and his leap itself applies the auto attack, EVEN IF HE DOESN'T REACH THE TARGET, BEFORE HE REACHES THE TARGET.

This, right here, is why he can burst you faster than you can react, because he already can drop 3/4ths of his damage before vision/the ! is even triggered. The second Q can be cast mid leap, and will be applied mid leap as well. Entire combo? .1 to .01 seconds. Guess what? On average, most players have 40 ping, lets say. It's pretty damn good. That means a .04 second delay. Not a big deal, except with Rengar, the entirety of Rengar's burst has already been applied before Latency has even allowed you to acknowledge his existence. This, and this alone, is why Rengar is bullshit. He can kill you literally before the game has had a chance to tell you he is incoming, let alone before you can react to it. And a lot of people can't do anything about it anyway, Rengar gets to kill you because he wants to, when he wants to, if you don't have something to hard shut it down IF you react fast enough. Pinks are not enough, because there are often times 3-4 directions he can come from (Including flat out down the lane, which will almost never be warded), so you just can't have a pink tell you he is incoming.

Weathered2 votes

Tell that to the d5 Rengar I was playing against earlier that couldn't get a kill 80% the time because of my item 3157. Honestly, it's not has hard in game is you make it out to be on paper. Maybe its because I have zhonyas bound to a mouse side button rather than a key, but it's not hard nor impossible to react to.

Lovely Pants3 votes

I don't have any personal issues with Rengar at the moment since they weakened his ability to just continually murder everyone, but I do think he's a champion that has more delicate state of good balance and frustration depending on the state of the game.

I'd like to see how the tinkering with trinkets in the next couple of patches pans out before taking more than tentative measures on any assassins, personally. Vision changes have made players feel like they have less power to deal with assassins in general I think, since they have to actually predict when roaming assassins are coming for their butts rather than being able to reliably catch an odd glimpse of them strolling around.

Vicarious1172 votes

Yeah it's mainly low elo brats who complain about Rengar, not all, but most the whiners are from lower elos.

Honestly Rengar is very easy to play against, deep ward, carry a pink, group up, etc. It's all basic shit really, just bad players seem to forget there's an enemy Rengar on the map and get imploded when wondering alone through an unwarded jungle/lane with no wards around it, in fact most of the "waaaaah this rengar one shot me" videos people keep linking the person in question literally just didn't even fucking notice the damn exclamation point! Pay attention people, you even get a sound notification ffs!

And your point about him being next to useless without his ult is only true for assassin Rengars. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you say you're lower elo and haven't played Rengar, but assassin isn't the only thing he can do, tank/bruiser Rengar is still very effective at catching people, blowing them up, dueling near brush, engaging, and disengaging. It's just far less snowbally and quite a bit more difficult to play, so most lower elo Rengars simply don't even know about non-assassin Rengar builds. And to bring it back around, he's still quite useful outside of his ult when built like this, his W makes him insanely tanky and his E makes it so you can stand in a front line and toss them out for catches on squishies without fear of getting imploded from poke alone.

Finally, weird hearing a Kha'Zix player say they've never had a problem against Rengars, my record as Rengar against Kha'Zix players for the past few seasons (so including back when Kha was OP as fuck and played in every single game) is standing at 33 wins and 2 losses, in terms of "The Hunt" of course, plenty of times I've dominated the enemy Kha only to have my laners feed, so I end up taking the head of the underfed Kha but still losing cause my teams couldn't hold their own. It's stuck there cause there are so few Kha players nowadays, but the thing is if you're not building him full damage and complete squish most Kha's can't do shit to you since your damage scales a lot on level and you can get tanky as fuck while still keeping that damage output. Something Kha'Zix can't really do. But yeah I can see a Kha stomping a full squish Rengar, that one depends almost entirely on if Rengar has his ult available :P

Weathered2 votes

I back up everything hear. Yes, all the rengars in my ELO build assassin. Yes, it's weird playing Kha and beating rengar, which is why I made the post. And yes, now that I think about it Rengar probably has the advantage when building bruiser.

Weathered1 votes

Oh, and to add: I usually buy item 3053 as a third main item and don't get item 3077 till later in my build. Not sure if this counts as more bruiser-ish, but Kha can build a little bit tanky to an extent.

Merxamers1 votes

Khazix is my favorite jungler, but haven't played him in a while. What do you build on him now? I'd assume that item 1400 item 3142 would be the first 2 items

Weathered1 votes

Yup.

Warrior youmuu's steraks then pick up tiamat, a Def item (deaths dance, maw, even DMP) and then finish hydra.

thats nice1 votes

This is the dumbest thing... Main elo brats?? watch any high elo jungle main or adc main. Definitely not low elo brats so good try.

"Honestly Rengar is very easy to play against, deep ward, carry a pink, group up"

1st: If you watch high elo players play, they ban Rengar 90% of the time just watch NB3. Because there is little counterplay... You say trinkets help? If you put down a Pink and it sees Rengar you are already in range of his lunge and dead, so that's retarded.

2nd: Rengar can beat Kha anytime post lvl 6 1v1.

3rd: Rengar can insta-kill any adc anytime with less than 3 ppl.. omg let me kill this adc real quick and e the other person and run away.

4th: You say the best counter-play is to stack on your team... HAHA until Rengar and Malphite are on the same team on any other strong cc champion, then you truly are beyond boned.

Vicarious1171 votes

Your lack of understanding is hilarious, have fun on that fear-train so many low elos seem to be riding, you seem to fit right in.

thats nice1 votes

You are right I was not as understanding because I didn't play rengar, but I watched a lot.

**Since I have played a lot of Rengar since this post (check my history) and he makes games way easy to win.... maybe because his counter play is so low, also everything I said prior was mostly true.

but the most hilarious part of this post is you calling people "low elo's" now I know I am a low elo currently (though Im pretty sure I will climb a lot this season), I didn't really get to play last year (military). but when you call people "low elo's" and you are in GOLD makes you a dumb hypocrite dude.

ASK ANYONE and they will ALL agree GOLD is a low elo, so keep on calling people low elo's when your in low elo yourself LOL

EDIT: One more thing since playing Rengar if i had my first 2 items (usually warrior and RFC) I could one shot any squishy under a turret obviously if they are alone, just because they couldn't get any damage off before they died...

Vicarious1171 votes

Did I ever once say I was high elo? Did I even say I was mid elo? Nope! I did not! So good job making assumptions and trying to change the focus, sorry to say though you've missed the mark. I know this "hate-train" I'm talking about cause it's in my elo as well.

When the enemy team grabs Rengar I'm not upset cause they have an "OP champ," I'm upset cause he's been my main for nearly 3 seasons long, for a long portion of that as a tank initiator in fact, but at the same time I'm slightly happy cause countering a Rengar is soooooo fucking easy.

thats nice1 votes

Well, when you say most whiners are low elo you are making people assume that you play with high elo's.

Also I never once said Rengar is OP, i actually think he is balanced. I just think his counter-play is pretty non existent, unless you have a poppy support or a janna support, so they can either ult or w. (which most lower elo's cant even react fast enough)

In either case I will just try and blow up the APC instead if they follow their adc everywhere.

The only time countering a Rengar is easy if it's a team effort, which is pretty non-existent in solo q.

I dont know where you are getting he is so easy to counter thing... I mean maybe as another jungler it's easy to counter him, but your team doesn't usually have a way to counter him.... Which is why he is banned like 90% of the time in high elo's, master and above.....(That's not an opinion, that is a fact)

Most good Rengar get red trinket, so they no it's safe to ult and gank without being countered... I personally don't do this, because in low elo's a 75g pink ward is too hard to get, LOL XD

Though recently with the new patch I haven't been seeing him banned as much since the original post

THESuperStuntMan2 votes

I don't think most people hate him because he's "OP." In fact, it doesn't even matter if he's a weak champion. The problem is that he makes the game completely unfun for people who play ADC or mages (until they can get zhonyas) with his nigh-uncounterable ult into burst.

Uguuubear1 votes

Also as a ADC main,when i hear a Rengar got a kill,i literally want to afk,because how frustrating it is,that you have to waste one item slot for a pink to detect him,and its not visable to waste a slot just to detect him.Also this isn't a horror game,so don't give me jump scares.fucking slender man

Melledoneus1 votes

Don't feel too bad. If Rengar got a kill and it wasn't you, you can breathe a sigh of relief for the next 2 minutes.

Steelflame1 votes

Early game. Past level 11 the CD is so low it doesn't matter, because by then he has 2 ranks in it and 20-30% CDR usually.

Melledoneus1 votes

This is why you people play tanks top lane rather than the stupid cheese crap called Juggernauts and light fighters. Neither can peel, and before you say "that's the support's job," remember that supports have such a terrible income that Riot made items so that they GENERATE GOLD.

TomA3X1 votes

Thought i'd check out that tf game to see how you built, imagine my surprise when i can't find it. Last game you played as tf into a rengar was this one, which makes me doubt this entire post.

http://i.imgur.com/98d7Nru.png?1

Weathered1 votes

http://imgur.com/0bJ22Lf

Use LoLking instead.

Shrek Luigi1 votes

I think whether Rengar is OP or not is greatly overshadowed by the fact that the people who complain about him most are the people with poor map awareness, counterjungling/counterganking proficiency, whatever. Rengar only reaches unstoppable-steamroller-status if he gets fed on people who don't know better, as do a lot of other assassins. Naturally these Champs are going to work really well in the lower brackets of play, and Riot shouldn't be making balance changes to cater to the mistakes that these people make. They should be reading up on how to lane against the threat of an assassin-jungler instead of spamming the boards with threads about how he's broken because he can get a lot of kills.

He's a high risk/reward, AD-centric melee champ with a lot of counterplay--I've always felt there were much more oppresive champions to play against. Rengar is OK in my book, and I don't even play him personally.

Troiann1 votes

People just hate him. He's what's hated this month.

People on this board are just not good enough to counter him. Rengar is onlhy truly a problem at a high elo where people master him, or a low elo where no one knows how to play the game.

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