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Stat: Dodge chance

Hige··4 votes·1,091 views

edit: I'm not proposing to bring Dodge chance back ._. all I'm saying is that dodge is a great mechanic on tanks and it should be used more often, it should be added to our current tanks in order to make them fulfill the tank fantasy much much better...

I was watching the old Vayne gameplay spotlight and in it there's one clip where she fights an udyr, as some of you might know, Udyr's passive used to be increasing dodge chance for every skill he casts and the interesting part was that he was able to dodge the third shot from silver bolts as well as some other autos and even a Q empowered one.

This got me thinking about League's so called damage creep and more specifically Vayne's current identity in Korea and in these forums in general... she went from being a burst champion at release to a lifesteal sustained one later on and ultimately back to burst thanks to the buffs on her Q and the addition of item 3147 a long time ago.

Would it be possible that Vayne's original design was thought out in a world where dodge chance was a thing? Would it be possible that Tanks suffer because they don't have a TRUE tank stat?

Dodge chance in itself is the ultimate tank stat, kind of like the antithesis of true damage. Currently a lot of AD champions find themselves being in the lead thanks to AD itemization and a lot of times tanks feel useless because they get melted in 2 shots, some of the most frustrating champions could have their power normalized by dodge chance, imagine a world where Zed couldn't connect that last auto attack, or where Yasuo's Q was in fact akin to miss, Ekko's third hit? how about you miss one and need to connect one more?

I do understand that the stat still exists on some champions like: Jax Pantheon Shen and even Teemo (Kind of...) but as you can see, only one out of those 4 is a Tank

What I'm trying to get at is that League's tanks could benefit a LOT from having dodge chance ingrained in their kits instead of having crazy AP ratios (Alistar Chogath ) or stupid long / crazy amounts of CCs (Rammus Galio Nautilus) or both... (Malphite Zac TahmKench)

That is not to say that Defense scalings should be a thing as well but in the end, Last whisper / void staff will render ANY defenses only half effective...

16 Comments

Arcus Diabolus5 votes

No please. We can do without another reason to make stats more important than skill, and even more so, luck.

Crits were a mistake. Literally anything RNG should not be in a competitive setting at all.

Gamer Girl Paige1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymIyAcvO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-10-04T02:16:26.978+0000)

No please. We can do without another reason to make stats more important than skill, and even more so, luck.

Crits were a mistake. Literally anything RNG should not be in a competitive setting at all.

How are crits a mistake? Adcs would be more useless then they are if they did not have crit doing no damage they need to bring back dodge to make the game more fun

Irelia Bot1 votes

People who say crit was a mistake are usually not saying the increase in damage is the problem but the random factor of it is.

20% chance to do double damage or 20% more total AD damage on every auto attack. Which is more reliable and which is more likely to cause an even fight to go one way or another.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Im in the middle of the debate however there was an extremely great forum post about a way to rework crit into a bonus damage modifier of a more consistent sort. You'd have to search for it but unless you see it you cant really have a say in crit being or not being a mistake imo.

It's possible to rework it just rito not yet pulling the trigger due to various other reasons.

As for dodge it can't be a stat, it just cannot function in a way for players to deal with and will only work as the way it currently is, as skill effects which give 100% of it.

Arcus Diabolus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gamer Girl Paige,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymIyAcvO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-10-04T02:19:02.547+0000)

How are crits a mistake? Adcs would be more useless then they are if they did not have crit doing no damage they need to bring back dodge to make the game more fun

Because of the simple fact that a guy with 20% crit chance can very much possibly crit with every auto and someone with 70% crit chance could never crit at all. Thats just how probability works.

The simple solution is just give ADCs a damage multiplier that gives them a 20% or 1.2x damage boost when they auto with 20% of what we now have as crit chance. That way, NO ONE is winning or losing fights because of a lucky friggin 1% crit rune.

Talinis1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gamer Girl Paige,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ymIyAcvO,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-10-04T02:19:02.547+0000)

How are crits a mistake? Adcs would be more useless then they are if they did not have crit doing no damage they need to bring back dodge to make the game more fun

First off, ADCS are far from useless, being a staple in every match and sometimes being brought in multiple lanes (mid varus/ezreal for example) meanwhile other classes like assassins fade in and out and may hardly see any play at all as a class (look at worlds).

Second, Riot has stated (quite recently) they are NOT happy with crits and have been having a lot of discussion about it. The problem is, the randomization at anything more than 0% and anything less than 100%. You get lucky on that crit and boom, 200% or 250% more damage and decides fights and even games. That is unhealthy to have a factor on your champion 100% out of your control and outside of your enemies control and riot is looking at fixing it in some fashion.

Third, dodge was removed way back when because it was HORRIBLY bad as a mechanic. You rely on some ability for your damage and outside of any outplay or any skill/ability by either player it just plain MISSES and causes you to die, or lose the fight. Abilities that have CDS MISS not because you moved to dodge it but because their character just randomly said you landed on 1 out of 100 so it's an automatic dodge. It 100% determines games outside of ANYONE's control and feels completely AWFUL. Dodge was left in as a 100 or nothing thing which is what it should be in a game this fast paced. Shen either dodges 100% with his ability or not at all.

Random chance as a mechanic is GOOD in games where fights last a long time, so the RNG evens out over the fight (think world of warcraft boss fights where fights last 4 - 10 minutes) so that it is simply another tool to mitigate damage over time (dodge) or increase your dps over time (crit)

Gamer Girl Paige1 votes

{quoted}

First off, ADCS are far from useless, being a staple in every match and sometimes being brought in multiple lanes (mid varus/ezreal for example) meanwhile other classes like assassins fade in and out and may hardly see any play at all as a class (look at worlds).

Second, Riot has stated (quite recently) they are NOT happy with crits and have been having a lot of discussion about it. The problem is, the randomization at anything more than 0% and anything less than 100%. You get lucky on that crit and boom, 200% or 250% more damage and decides fights and even games. That is unhealthy to have a factor on your champion 100% out of your control and outside of your enemies control and riot is looking at fixing it in some fashion.

Third, dodge was removed way back when because it was HORRIBLY bad as a mechanic. You rely on some ability for your damage and outside of any outplay or any skill/ability by either player it just plain MISSES and causes you to die, or lose the fight. Abilities that have CDS MISS not because you moved to dodge it but because their character just randomly said you landed on 1 out of 100 so it's an automatic dodge. It 100% determines games outside of ANYONE's control and feels completely AWFUL. Dodge was left in as a 100 or nothing thing which is what it should be in a game this fast paced. Shen either dodges 100% with his ability or not at all.

Random chance as a mechanic is GOOD in games where fights last a long time, so the RNG evens out over the fight (think world of warcraft boss fights where fights last 4 - 10 minutes) so that it is simply another tool to mitigate damage over time (dodge) or increase your dps over time (crit)

You don't find this fun? https://youtu.be/gI1aeS5H1Vs

Kneelbeforezoth3 votes

its a interesting topic and if given some thought id like to see what twist or how balanced riot can make it like cdr make it like a 10% dodge cap however i dont see it working out too much cause that could ruin champs that have serious solo engage but require the kill in order to make it out safe just exampling if built on non front line cause people always gonna goat cheese in this game like Master Yi he had super engage tools via ult and Q but little to no escape if he in tune fail to secure a kill or get collapsed upon all and all though i like the idea of dodge being a new stat

Irelia Bot2 votes

People also forget that there was Sword of the Divine which was basically Leagues monkey king bar. It made dodge ineffective for a few seconds but it only offered attack speed beyond that.

In other words there was trade offs in getting it but if you were facing the old dodge jax it was a must buy.

Nagoh Shan1 votes

Problem is dodge scales way too hard.

Way harder than damage and crit, and the game never really had the ability to handle it.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Dodge cannot function unless it's an active skilled ability.

So no to bringing it back. Trust me these are the words of a dodge rune jax main.

Hige1 votes

I understand the confusion I wasn't proposing to bring it back since in reality it was never removed? Dodge chance is always 100% when present and always linked to a skill, what I was trying to propose was that Dodge is a VERY good tank stat and that it could help tanks become more relevant IF they had a skill that gave them so, for example imagine:

Rammus W instead of just returning damage would Dodge (100%) an autoattack every 3 hits in exchange for taunt duration (0.5 seconds less) Zac R giving him Dodge for the full duration (100%) in exchange for his crazy AP ratios

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Rammus it would go against his current tjeme could work in a rework.

And zac doesnt need such a ridiculous buff, he doesn't care much about ap.

Still as active abilities it would be fine just like riot is currently doing for jax, shen, and future champs.

Hige1 votes

both ideas would require a heavy rework since the idea is to add the mechanic to the whole tank class, so yeah.

Mokkun1 votes

Dodge added a randomness element that didn't need to exist. Even though they ran on the same psuedo-rng system that crits do, they could have even more impact (think dodged turret shots early game or on squishies) than crits tended to, and you could stack it very high. And high dodge is significantly more powerful than high crit.

It doesn't need to come back. As long as crits stay on their psuedo-rng, they will be fine.

Hige1 votes

I won't pretend like dodge was a perfect mechanic by any means but at it's core, dodge is a great countermeasure for crits and baseline crazy high AD.

Dodging turret shots is simply stupid and with Riot's current technology they CAN set it up so it only applies for autoattacks and nothing else, not even jungle monsters.

High dodge is indeed more powerful than high crit, but again, there's nothing saying that 100% dodge should be achievable, technically, 100% cdr is more powerful than 100% crit chance, it doesn't happen thanks to the cap though.

Yet again, I'm not trying to propose bringing dodge back as in an item, rune or mastery, what I'm trying to propose is to implement it a lot more in tank champions so they become more effective in their role and so they get to fulfill the fantasy of tanking without worrying about Vayne (placeholder) 3 shooting them.

Oh I also forgot to mention, the stat exist on a item currently as well, the thing is that dodge CHANCE is a problem, but what dodge does is simply reduce damage taken, just like what crit does in the end is increase your damage potential by a flat multiplicative factor, dodge diminishes damage by a factor as well, the item is: item 3143 that reduces the damage from crits by a %, in theory, you "dodge" one attack out of 10 it just happens in a different way.

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