Basic Abilities That are Ranged, Targeted, and Apply Hard CC are Unhealthy

Frosted Tips··2 votes·1,156 views

I would like this to be a discussion so I will have my reasoning below and if you have any input whatsoever I would love to hear it.

Basic abilities that are ranged, targeted, and apply hard cc include: Alistar W, Fiddlesticks Q, Maokai W, Pantheon W, Poppy E, Quinn E, Ryze W.

If the champion puts itself in danger during the move, not after specifically during ththe move they are excluded so that includes: Alistar Pantheon Poppy Quinn

I do not include situational stuns like Annie Q with passive, Sejuani E, or TwistedFate W or Nocturne E fear because it is avoidable without item 3157

Honorable mention soft CC abilities because they require some form of cleanse Lulu W, and Nasus W.

So we have Fiddlesticks Q, Lulu W, Maokai W, Nasus W, and Ryze W

IMO the game would be healthier or more easily balanced if these abilities didn't exist in the manner they do now. Having to take summoner 1 or buy item 3140 or have your support buy item 3222 for a basic ability is not healthy. This is because the basic ability can be used many times while your ability to defend against is down. While with an Ultimate like Malzahar it can only be used maybe once while it is on cooldown.

I know people will argue against it because of mobility, but mobility is high because those champions have to be able to deal with these abilities. So if you get rid of these abilities you can reduce the mobility of the highly mobile champions because now ults and melee range basic abilities and AoE CC is the only thing they have to deal with. As of right now immobile champions are punished the most by these because they have no way to move after ththeththesththeththese abilities are used on them so by doing this you reduce mobility, help out immobile champions, and increase enjoyment ofthe average player.

What are your guys' thoughts?

19 Comments

BrightWîngs1 votes

ok I would hardly call Quinn E shit is not even a half second kinda seems forced

Frosted Tips1 votes

Only mentioned her so people wouldn't point out I didn't mention her.

BrightWîngs1 votes

{quoted}

Only mentioned her so people wouldn't point out I didn't mention her.

fair but the game needs some point and click CC or champions like MasterYi will be unstoppable i totally get it though

Frosted Tips1 votes

Exactly that is why we have melee ranged point and click cc and we have ultimate like Malzahar

BrightWîngs1 votes

{quoted}

Exactly that is why we have melee ranged point and click cc and we have ultimate like Malzahar

its still needed for the same reason someone like MasterYi will obliterate some like Malzahar Fiddlesticks in a half second this is late game yi we are talking about

Frosted Tips1 votes

Can you elaborate because what you said has zero context or explanation.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

remove them and the what? give them even stronger CC abilities?

Frosted Tips1 votes

Either make them a skill shot or change the ability completely.

ZephyrDrake3 votes

{quoted}

Either make them a skill shot or change the ability completely.

you do know that whatever they do they'll actually give them even stronger skills right? those abilities and those champions are actually balanced around having those abilities

Frosted Tips1 votes

What are you even talking about the strength of the ability would only be increased if it becomes dodgable or missable which is fine because then they have counterplay.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

What are you even talking about the strength of the ability would only be increased if it becomes dodgable or missable which is fine because then they have counterplay.

"counterplay" I don't think you have any idea what that means

Frosted Tips1 votes

Yes I do, but go ahead and insult.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

Yes I do, but go ahead and insult.

no you don't, counterplay is more than "I can dodge this skill" if that is all you think counterplay is then you really have no idea what counterplay is. Positioning is a form of counterplay, grouping is a form of counterplay, building properly is a form of counterplay. Dodging while being a form of counterplay is not the only form of it. Counterplay isn't "what can I do in a 1v1 scenario" counterplay is just playing smart. You not going to the side lane to push a wave on your own while there is a fed assassin on the enemy team and you being a squishy that is behind IS a form of counterplay. You staying with your team if you cannot survive an engage of someone is a form of counterplay.

Frosted Tips1 votes

I can dodge this skill is a part of counter play. If I have to build QSS for basic ability that is counter play but IMO it is not the right type of counter play for basic abilities. Like I said before it causes mobility on certain champions to be increased to deal with it so then when it doesn't exist those champions are extremely obnoxious. The amount of counter play it offers is extremely low and not in the right place IMO so it has no suitable counter play if I were to reword it.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

I can dodge this skill is a part of counter play. If I have to build QSS for basic ability that is counter play but IMO it is not the right type of counter play for basic abilities. Like I said before it causes mobility on certain champions to be increased to deal with it so then when it doesn't exist those champions are extremely obnoxious. The amount of counter play it offers is extremely low and not in the right place IMO so it has no suitable counter play if I were to reword it.

you can say "it causes mobility on certain champions to be increased" yet things like Maokai have been around for how long now? you using QSS for a basic ability is no different than you having to use it when you get hit by any sort of CC in the game whether it's targeted or not. Mobility will be kept exactly the same regardless of whether targeted CC exist in the game or not. There is more than enough counterplay against the champions with targeted CC in their basic abilities otherwise they would be completely destroying every single game yet they aren't. Just because one ability doesn't have the amount of counterplay you want that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things since the rest of the champion's kit has the counterplay you are looking for

Frosted Tips1 votes

you can say "it causes mobility on certain champions to be increased" yet things like Maokai have been around for how long now?

Well with times changing a champions health changes. Regardless Maokai hasn't been healthy for years.

you using QSS for a basic ability is no different than you having to use it when you get hit by any sort of CC in the game whether it's targeted or not

They are way different. One requires you to get it because there is nothing else you can do while the other is able to be dodged or missed. So you can still build it if you are scared of getting hit but it is not guaranteed.

Mobility will be kept exactly the same regardless of whether targeted CC exist in the game or not.

What would make you believe that this is true? There is no indication that this would be true.

There is more than enough counterplay against the champions with targeted CC in their basic abilities otherwise they would be completely destroying every single game yet they aren't.

I did not say they were destroying, but that they are unhealthy which is way different. They are usually not strong because targeted CC that is ranged takes up so much of their allotted power that they are weak besides that which is not fun for either the player or the opponent.

Just because one ability doesn't have the amount of counterplay you want that doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things since the rest of the champion's kit has the counterplay you are looking for

Goes along with my previous point. Pretty much becomes unsatisfying for both players and not enjoyable for either unless the champion with the targeted CC is OP or very UP.

JoeAnarchy1 votes

you forgot Morgana i guess her ability isn't targeted, it's a skill shot, but it might as well be.. it has a ridiculously accurate hitbox..

Moody P1 votes

Targeted CC is far healthier than ""skillshot"" aoe knockups

Frosted Tips1 votes

Well I didn't say to change it to that and knockups are CC but targeted ones are usually reserved for ults properly.

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