and 
They both need reworks and they are both stat check champions. I guess atleast Mundo has a skill shot. Honestly these champions should be gutted like old Poppy, literally unplayable, until they get reworked. No one likes facing Tryndamere and no one likes facing Dr. Mundo. When they are strong they beat everything because they just run at you out damaging you while being practically unkillable.
Tobykachu32 votesThe last time Riot randomly buffed Mundo about a year ago it resulted in him being so brainlessly unfun and gaining a fair bit of popularity that they had to almost immediately nerf him again. So glad to see they learnt their lesson.
Chembaron Yamada9 votesLet's be fair, the buff they are giving to him is for his extra magic resist from E. So it will mostly just impact his performance when he is a counterpick for AP heavy teams or the enemy picking an AP top laner. It doesn't make him harder to deal with for AD top laners at all.
Barcid19 votesHe wasn't even that strong of a champ unless he was morbidly fed. Executioner's Calling was all that needed to ever get built to - Oh wait, my ADC just informed me that item doesn't exist apparently and he's instead working on his third IE.
Sirchachat15 votesWelp better rework the entire ADC/Marksmen roster because by design they are statchecks.
[slayer-jinx-wink]
Moody P14 votesthere's literally nothing wrong with stat check and using it as a signal word is meaningless
SpaghettiVase7 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bY1eE48I,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-02-27T23:50:35.509+0000)
there's literally nothing wrong with stat check and using it as a signal word is meaningless
Until that person is ranged then you have a problem with it.
Moody P9 votesYou only have a problem with fighters doing it and look the other way for 90% of the roster doing it too
Glaricion5 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bY1eE48I,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-02-27T23:50:35.509+0000)
there's literally nothing wrong with stat check and using it as a signal word is meaningless
I don't even know what so many LoL community buzz words even mean: stat check, skill expression, etc... I think it is like inting where it had a place once, but is now so misused it doesn't even mean anything.
If something needs less reliability or needs to be retooled, say that. Maybe you think Trynd's E (mocking shout) needs a delay + cast animation w/ no AD loss when turned around. Maybe you think Mundo's R (sadism) should be more closely tied with being in combat rather than a flat heal.
What the hell is anyone supposed to do w/ just a plain "lacks skill expression" or "is a stat check"?
Abibyama II3 votesMy favorite buzzword is overloaded when the champion does more than one thing
DuskDaUmbreon11 votesI can understand small buffs here and there to keep them from being too miserable.
Trynd's just becoming a bit less RNG-reliant in late-game, and Mundo's already basically unkillable to any mage, so these buffs probably won't affect much. :v
Frosted Tips10 votesNo. If you are a stat check champion you need to be reworked. They all deserve the Poppy Treatment. Pitiful numbers until they get reworked.
DuskDaUmbreon6 votesOf course they need to be reworked. It's just, in most cases, I can agree with small buffs to make them not troll picks.
Frosted Tips9 votesThat isn't how it works with stat check champions though. If you give them little buffs then they start to win in the stat check and then they stomp because they either can or can't. There is very little room for outplay. So little buffs effect them much more than other champions that have good design.
Chembaron Yamada4 votesThe buff for Dr. Mundo is literally just more extra MR from his E, so the only match ups it will increase his stat check against will be AP champions. AD top laners (which are alot) won't be affected by this change the slightest.
Frosted Tips3 votesAD top laners (which are alot) won't be affected by this change the slightest.
That is incorrect. Many AD Top laners/AD Champions in general have magic damage in their kits. It will effect most match ups just to a different degree.
Doge20202 votesYeah but very little because most of the AD top laners that have some magic damage only have a very very slight amount, so small that most of the time it is better to invest into the AD portion of the champ rather than the much weaker magic damage portion. Renekton, for example, has magic damage on his R but on no other abilities. So it is very inefficient to go AP on him because his only source of magic damage is his R (which isn’t even very good at all with AP).
Sure the mundo buff can affect AD top laners, but that impact will be so small that those AD top laners would still deal almost the same amount of total damage (the total amount of AD, MD and TD dealt on a target) as before this mundo buff.
Frosted Tips3 votesWell yes it will effect them less, but champions like Jax with a bunch of magic damage and can't build penetration will be even more effected than AP champions since they can atleast build penetration, but still any buff to stat check champions is a bad buff.
Doge20201 votesFrom what I am seeing it is so small of a buff that Jax (being the god champ that he is) won’t be affected by it at all if he fights a mundo. And if it is noticeable then Jax already would have had a hard time dealing with mundo so this buff wouldn’t change anything about that.
LeBlanc Rose1 votesIts the kind of thing that only matters at level 8, and then it is at max a 3% mr increase. Not that big of a deal vs ads with 80 magic damage in their kit.
Frosted Tips1 votesI guess you have never looked at damage charts after the game. Look at how much Jax does as physical damage and how much he does as magic damage.
3TWarrior6 votesmost champions have a method to deal with stat-checks because almost every matchup in the game is a stat check
typically if dr mundo wins OUTRIGHT when he's balanced, it's because the opponent was playing a stat-check champion as well and lost
for example, Dr mundo against garen. Mundo has equal or better wave-clear, roughly equal health regen (as one is all the time and the other is out of combat), %hp damage and loves close-range fighting
now take mundo against riven or darius: mundo has to manage the waves, not do much other than poke damage because both champions out-trade him heavily, both champions out-stat him, both champions are more useful in team fights, both champions are better than mundo at split-pushing
mundo against quinn/kennen: both champions easily harrass mundo, have defensive tools in their kits, can farm as easily or more than mundo and if mundo wants to get an advantage at all, he has to go past minions and put himself at risk of a gank
so tell me, WHAT ISN'T A STAT CHECK IN THIS GAME ? most matchups that seem to not involve stat checks are champions that toss skillshots repeatedly because players can DODGE THESE SKILLSHOTS
Durzaka4 votesYou dont quite understand how Stat Check is used in League.
Everything is a stat check when you break it down, except for a small selection of things.
But the true definiton of a stat check is when the only way they win the fight is by running at you and having better stats/items than you do, with very little agency to make up for that fact. Even if Mundo is a god and lands every Cleaver he ever throws, he is still subject o that because he needs to run his opponent down and just be in their face until their HP is 0 or his is.
For comparison, Riven has animation cancelling, and AA weaving, on top of using her shield to get the best value. All of those can give her an opportunity to beat an opponent who is ahead of her on items and stats.
The fact you think every match up is a stat-check means you need to more closely evaluate how champions fight each other if you think that is really true.
3TWarrior4 votesthe way it is used, there is no such thing as a stat check(otherwise we would all pick the champions with the currently highest, easily available statistic), but there are such things as kit-checks
for example, if dr mundo lands every cleaver and wins, despite being weak, does that mean he stat checked his opponent?
dr mundo is tough and can keep outputting damage. That is all he has going for him. Unless the mundo plays well and evaluates what situations require and what he can do, he can't do much. Just running in is a terrible idea because the plethora of available champions can do everything he can and more, so, naturally champions with less options need higher stats in order to compete. You don't overdo it, but you don't make the game better by forcing change
dr mundo scales with items, as does every champion that requires bulk to function in a reasonable manner
in fact, the higher divisions go, the more HORRID his winrate becomes. In diamond and above worldwide, he's currently sitting at a 45% win rate and 1% playrate https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/overview/drmundo/diamond
and in other divisions, he doesn't break above 48%
I could design a super-awesome kit for him to bring him up to modern standards, but then he probably wouldn't be the champion the players know and love because his gameplay is derived from extremes and typically, the more awesome the kit is, the more it has to be nerfed to bring it down to the level of other kits, and that's coming from an idea that's mostly just remaking his current abilities to keep his current identity
Velasan1 votesNot to throw everyone off track, but isn't that what they said?
The point is everything in the game is math (and as another reply pointed out literally the entire ADC roster works this way), so defining it as a stat check is misleading.
Not everyone here is even arguing the same thing. Some of you are arguing that simple kits are too simple and thereby have to be over powered to compensate or be useless, which is debatable since they pay for it with inflexibility. The other half are arguing that you shouldn't have mechanics in the game that let you sit on an opponent and kill them without an easy way to fight back.
No one seems to really agree on what the topic is.
Bisaknosp8 votesmore like why tf are they buffing graves?XD
Cloud2737 votesDr. Mundo is actually pretty balanced in his current state. Ignite and grievous wounds screw him over hard. If you're playing a tank who doesn't usually get those things, you'll need help from a teammate to deal with him.
Frosted Tips6 votesNo he is balanced by Riot saying that Grevious Wounds is always being applied on him, so that forces the lane opponent to build grevious wounds or take ignite or they guarantee lose. That is not healthy.
Cloud2736 votes[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bY1eE48I,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-02-28T01:39:24.705+0000)
No he is balanced by Riot saying that Grevious Wounds is always being applied on him, so that forces the lane opponent to build grevious wounds or take ignite or they guarantee lose. That is not healthy.
That's like saying a champ is unhealthy because you have to build armor/magic resist to deal with them. Sometimes you have to adjust your build a little in order to deal with certain champs. Riot has given you all the tools to beat him. All you have to do is use them.
wolvius6 votesYou act like a majority of the reworks solve anything 
was made worse to play against 
nerf irelia wasn't just a meme 
he's been gutted again and less? fun to lane against AND majority of old main said less fun to play as well. Stat checking can apply to every champion in league at a certain point ohh zoe hit E here's a countdown to when she can stat check you.
If you think about any ranged champion they stat checks every melee if they never get in range, which with mobility creep can happen easilt with old champs designs.
Frosted Tips7 votesAkali was a stat check assassin. If she survived lane she just beat you. Also her shroud was countered by 75 gold. That is super unfair. Yes they overloaded her kit, but she is better designed now than she was before.
Irelia, IMO is actually in an ok spot right now. After some tweaks to her rework she feels IMO more fun to play as and about equally as fun to face. A lot more skill oriented than before. Was it needed probably no, but her old W did feel pretty bad because it just didnt scale at all.
Aatrox actually fulfills his fantasy now. He is this demonic being that wants to insight bloodbaths. And now he does damage and he is not a drain tank, which Riot does not like and neither does the majority of the community.
wolvius2 votes[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bY1eE48I,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-02-28T00:01:31.513+0000)
Akali was a stat check assassin. If she survived lane she just beat you. Also her shroud was countered by 75 gold. That is super unfair. Yes they overloaded her kit, but she is better designed now than she was before.
Irelia, IMO is actually in an ok spot right now. After some tweaks to her rework she feels IMO more fun to play as and about equally as fun to face. A lot more skill oriented than before. Was it needed probably no, but her old W did feel pretty bad because it just didnt scale at all.
Aatrox actually fulfills his fantasy now. He is this demonic being that wants to insight bloodbaths. And now he does damage and he is not a drain tank, which Riot does not like and neither does the majority of the community.
I never said the old champs were great as you said 75 gold countered shroud was unfair, but did you see how many hurdles the community had to jump through to get RIOT to finally change true-stealth becuase the group of ostriches that is the balance team had their heads shoved soo far up each others asses thay they couldn't understand how people didn't stop complaining about her type of stealth when they kept nerfing the duration and rest of her kit, leaving her weaker than a Reksai in ARAM.
Irelia rework MRK 40, yeah kinda agree she is in a good spot now AFTER NEARLY A YEAR of how many mini-reworks (or were they large enough to be called reworks) and frustration, Its funny that all the "special parts" from her reveal is already out of date and innaccurate.
Aatrox ill concede I do like the Shouty Russian fantasy but is Riven -2.0 really a good addition to the game, people always complain about irrating ranged toplaners which he now is. Yeah screw draintanking if a melee gets ontop of a ranged ADC said ADC shouldnt leave with more hp than when it started.
Boreas IX4 votesThe only reason old champions need reworks and buffs is because everyone new is so overloaded and does so much damage that everyone before them just becomes unplayable. The solution is not to rework but to nerf things that require the game to conform around the top percentage of new champions. Buffs out the ass for everyone is why League is dying.
mack91123 votesIsn’t trynd gettIng compensation buffs for his rune change ?
Syrile3 votesReworks rarely ever solve anything. Akali, Irelia, Aatrox, all were hated and constantly complained about. The "balance" team is good at unbalancing things and ruining the fun of a champion but not good at fixing anything.
Support Position3 votes Because They 
Know 
They 
Will 
Fail
Only good reworks. And nunu is still overpowered with his healing.
MorgManBasher3 votes[{quoted}](name=Support Position,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bY1eE48I,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-02-28T07:42:25.795+0000)
Nunu is one of those champs no one cares that much when he's overpowered because he doesn't 1 shot you.
Velasan2 votes[{quoted}](name=Support Position,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bY1eE48I,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-02-28T07:42:25.795+0000)
Swain is such a mixed one. As an OG Swain player I really miss old Swain, but I like the new one in a different way.
It's like if they had just added the Swain rework as a new character with a different name and kept the old Swain I'd be much happier.
Jennifer4203 votesbecause since season 5 this is how riot works. simple example
adcs: we'd like to not be a canon minion. turn us into a ward pls then we at least survive 3 hits not just 1. riot: what is it you want? you want more damage? okay here have more damage.
Velasan3 votesThe whole concept of stat checking is getting out of whack on the boards. The entire game is math, everything you do is a stat check, it just depends on how.
When Ekko E to you and then point blank Q that is a stat check. His Q may be a skill shot, but he does it at close range where it can't miss and then he beats up on a champion with auto attacks. Most people wouldn't refer to Ekko as a stat check, but he is.
When people say stat check what they usually mean is a champion who smothers other champions by running at them and whacking them until they die. That doesn't make them any more stat check than other champions though. The last true complete stat check in the game was old Fiora ult where she just went invulnerable and got a bunch of free hits.
Otherwise the way it's being described is every time a Veigar ults you then you were stat checked because he pressed R and had enough damage and you didn't have enough HP.
Lovelle1 votesBoards definition of stat check = champion they don't like.
In reality, any champion with little to no utility is "stat checky" by nature of offering nothing to a team outside of damage.
SaTkE2 votesFuck off, don't touch Trynd. Aren't you happy that Riot already ruined Aatrox?
The Spicy Crit2 votesTryndamere has 45% win rate :)
Stevev452 votesI'll counter with, no champs have ever needed reworks.
3TWarrior1 votesI'd disagree with urgot, nunu, ashe, 
(though they might have gone a bit overboard) , 
(guess I shouldnt comment on him. I only played him briefly before his update happened but from what I remember, it was pretty weird) 
( who literally was in a state of "keep me dead or I completely dominate the lane while making the game a 6 v 5 with a free resurrect" I loved him but it really wasn't healthy how bad they had to keep him) 
(who still needs some work but is still awesome to play )
then there are several bad cases: 
(who didn't really even receive one during the "juggernaut class update" ) 
(who needs a lot done to his kit to keep it fair and healthy) 
(where they basically gutted his kit for the sake of ONE THING, which had no place in the kit to start with) 
(while he looks fun and awesome, he was basically down-graded)
Stevev451 votesOf all those champions you listed I think only Ash and Nasus still feel and play like the same champion they were. Any champion can be balance by just changing the value of their abilities. Their is no reason to change whole kits around. They use several bad arguments too justify doing it though.
"It will be easier to balance them after the changes" again any champion can be balance just by changing the values on their abilities.
"They will be healthier after the rework" Healthy is so subjective it's meaningless. I think this is mainly driven by hubris of developers who want to leave their mark on the game.
BLIGHTBRINGER2 votesIt does make me wonder... 
(After several nunerous buffs/mini ability changes, this champ still doesn't fundamentally represent a Carry in any way, he has lots of utility, and was given an Active to secure kills better because he lacks the ability to gain kills himself unless he is extremely ahead).
Sure he has mixed damage and 2 different health based damaging mechanics in his kit but he doesn't really have a lot of good matchups, statistic-wise he looses against most matchups.
He needs to be reworked, in a (Varus re-imagined) way. Riot needs to set a targets as to what he needs to have, what he would excel at best, what his weaknesses would be and so on. His current kit is too overly complex and has a lot of inconsistencies, punishments, and easy exploits to beating him most of the time.
Lovelle1 votesI've never understood the "stat-check" argument. Are these people saying they would rather have every champion play like Yasuo/Riven/Lee (aka some of the most problematic champions in the game)?
Frosted Tips2 votesNo. But this is a hard concept for people to grasp, but I will say it. Overloaded kits are not healthy, and lots that are over simplified are unhealthy. There is a middle ground that should be met. Good examples are; 
and so many more.
