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Riot Has Proven Time and Timd Again They Have No Clue How to Balance the Jungle

Frosted Tips··86 votes·18,368 views

Riot has proven time and time again they have no clue how to balance the jungle. Last time we saw this is when they thought 3 camps then a gank was too early to get a gank off and then because of their change instead of moving to a 4 camp then gank meta it moved to a 1 or 2 camp then gank meta.

Scuttle Crab is another great example of not understanding what to do. Riot just added this camp to increase early jungle interaction, but what it did was mainly just force people to trade crabs and then after that the second spawn of crab is contested which isn't much earlier than when junglers would engage before. Also crab has rng spawns which no one likes.

Now Riot is reducing Jungle Exp again because junglers have too much impact on the game. I do not deny their reasoning, but their way of fixing it is completely wrong. Junglers already have very little reason to be in their jungler because of high camp respawn time and the already low exp it gives, so they gank frequently because of this. Now Riot is making the jungle even less appealing by reducing the exp camps give, so now junglers will have less reason to farm their camps when they can just gank and leach more exp than they can get off camps and possibly get a kill or assist and plate gold.

Riot needs to lower exp and respawn time so that camps are up more often so it is worth it to sometimes power farm the jungle and sometimes it is worth it to gank non-stop.

62 Comments

boricCentaur135 votes

Jungle after season 6 has just been a shit show.

Sewer Side3 votes

{quoted}

Jungle after season 6 has just been a shit show.

Which is why it’s one of the most dominant roles, right?

That’s what you mean by shit show...right??

TehNACHO6 votes

...yes.

Not speaking for the centaur but in my opinion, the exact mechanisms that have been making Jungle such a shitshow past S6 are the same that makes the Jungle role so dominant right now.

The change from 3 camps for Lv3 to 4 camps for lv3 lead to much more aggressive and oftentimes much more snowball-y level 2 Jungler champions and tactics.

The Scuttle Crab as a neutral objective was a fair addition, up until we made it approximately as valuable as a Gromp, favoring Junglers who are stronger early to take an early crab for relatively free. This of course, means more aggressive champions and tactics.

Hell you can even argue turret plating in some ways is calling for more aggressive champions and tactics, especially in solo Q. In the old days a Jungler could just gank and leave, now they know to shove in the lane and take a plate with them. This resets the lane turning a bad situation worse for you who got ganked, and of course grants more gold to the enemy laner. This wasn't common in Solo Q and is now a standard practice and in many ways, makes Jungle presence way more dominating.

It won't be a surprise if Riot nerfs Jungle Exp, which forces more aggressive Ganking Junglers and Tactics, and makes Junglers even more dominating on laners. It's a shitshow for Junglers, and it also makes Junglers tend towards more aggressive and dominating strategies.

HeresYourL1 votes

{quoted}

Jungle after season 6 has just been a shit show.

No kidding. I towerdove as Nocturne at level 8 and got 3 shot. Wtf riot? Let me delete adcs and survive.

Karfuss8 votes

{quoted}

Riot needs to lower exp and respawn time so that camps are up more often

This. So much this.

If you don't want me to gank, give me an incentive not to. I get experience from leeching, I get the potential for kill gold, and I get plating gold. If I'm not Udyr who needs to rush two of the most expensive items in the game, or Nasus who has to stack perpetually... Why would I NOT gank?

Every single nerf to the jungle is only giving Junglers more of an excuse not to be there. Add more camps, reduce experience and gold gained, then drastically decrease the respawns. I also don't know what Riot expects of Junglers, their entire role is built to goon lanes and throw leads around.

IkBenShteen7 votes

Honestly everyone needs to make up their god damn mind. In my opinion a jungler is heavily dependant on laners doing their job. On the other side it's the same. Laners expect their junglers to know when to gank.

I've always said this. The only reason jungle was changed was because of toplaners crying about the mad obvious gank they were going to get at level 2 while jungle did blue red + camp. Now they will still complain about jungle.

The level 3 jungler ganking your lane was the easiest thing ever to spot, and if you so happen to push your lane and stick around, that's on you. If you freeze or let the enemy push into you your jungler could do the same but you'd rather perma shove then cry about a jungler seeing an easy target. It pisses me off how jungle always seems to be the problem while really the jungle was fine as hell. Scuttle crab is a mess, the new drakes are cool as hell, rift herald is dumb af because towers are already so easy to destroy. It's just a sad joke.

usul12025 votes

Meddler directly addressed powerfarming in his most recent dev blog with relation to why they're not lowering timers. The difference between "sometimes powerfarm" and "it is always best to powerfarm, scaling junglers are now gods" is an incredible small tuning where if you get close then item changes affecting laners will shove you over it every other patch. Graves is already tenuous with the adc item changes coming soon.

Frosted Tips5 votes

So all I got from what he said on his reasoning behind not lower jungle respawn is because unhealthy champions in low elo are already too good at power farming so everyone else has to suffer because bad players don't know how to play the game, and because Riot hasn't reworked these horribly designed champions yet.

usul12022 votes

It effects high levels too, but at high levels there is less middle ground. Power farming is either godlike or off meta to useless. Like, how long was graves the God jungler in challenger, and k6 would farm out till he could 1 shot 2 carries and jump away? Low elo will reach that point much sooner, but powerfarming is a high elo problem as well.

(worth noting, I'm biased. I hate seeing graves, shyv, and k6 in the jungle, both with and against, so I err on the side of no powerfarming over putting it close and having a few patches where they're super op)

Frosted Tips11 votes

Graves is his own problem. Riot didnt balance him and let him alone be that way. No other power farmers were even close to his level of OP at the time, and funnel was a thing back then too that even helped Graves more. Just because one champion in high elo is OP and plays a certain way does not mean that strategy is broken. It means the champion is not healthy.

usul12022 votes

Yea, graves was an outlier in the most recent powerfarming meta, but previous powerfarming ones showed off shyv and k6 in unhealthy ways as well. The bug has a history of dominating high elo jungle in farming metas. Hell, even koggles jungle became a thing because of powerfarming. Yes devourer or whichever as item at the time made it strong, but the meta of uninteractive powerfarming makes it viable and (imo) unhealthy.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

The differences here are quite obvious.

Graves is good early and late due to ADC itemization and crit.

Shyv is quite bad early with weak ganks but strong farming. She's also fantastic late game.

K6 is great at ganking early and farming up, but falls off incredibly.

Juice22 votes

"Powerfarm scaling junglers are now gods" NEVER happened, never ever

Even in the ages of most broken feral flare and devourer iterations champions like Lee Sin were STILL the most dominant champs in the game (at the time) who were heavy gankers

usul12023 votes

To be fair, lee is pretty meta independent. Dude survived powerfarming, invading, and a whole lot of metas and then recently is just.... Not there since trackers is gone I guess. I wonder what it would take to bring him back without the free wards.

Death by Glamour12 votes

no hes not, hes had every buff under the sun to make him a jack of all trades and to keep him in the meta, even now he has a massive playrate

usul12021 votes

It took every buff under the sun to make him meta independent, lee was riots golden boy for a long time. His win rate is sub 50% on multiple sites which was not true in the past, although you are correct that his play rate is still huge. Much higher than I thought tbh. I guess I got so used to seeing him every other game that 1 out of 5 seems low now lol. I guess nothing is needed to make him meta.

Death by Glamour13 votes

he has generally always had a sub 50% winrate and yes that looks bad

until you see the 30%+ playrate

usul12022 votes

I was under the impression that he sat around 52-54% for a long time, but it looks like I am wrong there as well.

League of graph's popularity graph for him is pretty nuts. I wish the history went back further. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin

Hellmaximus11 votes

It's because of new additions to jungle rooster, before leesin was dominate because very few counters and even fewer champion that could rival what lee sin could do, into season mid season 7 when they gave him nerfs and buffed up other junglers and added new champions, if anything removing tracker saved lee sin from deal with enemy vision which also helped him from getting counter gank by stronger early game junglers like nidalee, elise, graves and xin zhao.

They also gave his q a 150 range buff, gave him a buff of ulting tanky targets so him, before he NEEDED to ward jump to get the range his q has which is a vastly huge buff (once you factor in timing, skill, prediction and of course ward count).

Lee sins winrate has never been strong because of his play rate except when he was perma-ban broken (which really only happened twice).

3TWarrior2 votes

he was still riot's "bar" for the jungle even when his winrate was in the 40's and his winrate was healthily in the 40's because if you knew how to use him, you could destroy, just not many could but everyone aspired to do so

usul12021 votes

Yea, I wonder how high his playrate would go if his popularity dropped so you only had like, levi and gripex type people playing him.

Cuoco Diavolo2 votes

{quoted}

"Powerfarm scaling junglers are now gods" NEVER happened, never ever

Even in the ages of most broken feral flare and devourer iterations champions like Lee Sin were STILL the most dominant champs in the game (at the time) who were heavy gankers

you are forgetting about the god of patch 4.20 weedwick

Gramps691 votes

However by removing the "powerfarming" ability for junglers that prefer that route early and forcing people to fight over scuttles, it eliminates almost an entire class of junglers from play because they can't contest a scuttle or take it fast enough compared to a Graves, Lee Sin, Kha, etc.

usul12021 votes

While I would say that powerfarmers are generally weaker, I don't think they've been eliminated. Nocturn is a hard farm to 6 and then powerfarm when ult isn't up, and is doing quite well. Others like shyv are hurting, but eliminated is too strong a word imo

Gramps691 votes

I'd agree with that. I should have clarified a little more-- the introduction of Scuttle's value and further decreasing jungle XP will make scuttle that much more valuable, which Nocturne/Shyvana/etc. have no issue clearing quickly or contesting since they have good 1v1 power, but tanks like Maokai/Amumu/Malphite don't have the 1v1 potential to actually contest them, so they just need to hope the enemy jungler doesn't show up or they have to lose out on that XP and hope they can get more from leeching lane XP or powerfarming.

The Highest Noon4 votes

Of course they don't. Haven't you realized that balance is dependant on what the playerbase complains about, so they enact changes based on complaints?

Frosted Tips25 votes

Ok, but what I am saying is that even if they are trying to cater towards the player they are not. Junglers have too much impact, gank too much, and don't need to farm their jungle to stay on par with level because they leach exp. That is what the community complains about. Riots changes will cause junglers to gank more and farm less because their camps are worth less than they already are.

The Highest Noon4 votes

{quoted}

Ok, but what I am saying is that even if they are trying to cater towards the player they are not. Junglers have too much impact, gank too much, and don't need to farm their jungle to stay on par with level because they leach exp. That is what the community complains about. Riots changes will cause junglers to gank more and farm less because their camps are worth less than they already are.

These are the changes that the playerbase wanted. If you have any complaints, complain to the ones complaining.

huhte5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nbThG8ok,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-13T17:43:21.416+0000)

These are the changes that the playerbase wanted. If you have any complaints, complain to the ones complaining.

Funny you think its the community when the community is downvoting u to hell.

rtbf2256182415 votes

{quoted}

Ok, but what I am saying is that even if they are trying to cater towards the player they are not. Junglers have too much impact, gank too much, and don't need to farm their jungle to stay on par with level because they leach exp. That is what the community complains about. Riots changes will cause junglers to gank more and farm less because their camps are worth less than they already are.

leech* just saying.

Regality1 votes

In my opinion this change is a step in the right direction as jungle ganks will be less effective. I think it's ridiculous that junglers can arrive on even footing in solo lanes, or even worse they can arrive at bot 1-2 levels above the laners. There's not much counterplay to getting ganked by a level 6 jungler when you are level 4/5

It doesn't solve the issue of level 2 ganks and early game orientated junglers dominating, but it reduces the ability of the junglers to keep up with the solo laners which should never have been the case

WoΘxer1 votes

???

If I am farming camps already I fall behind in levels, so I must either gank more the lanes to do not set my self behind in XP.

I have no idea what are they doing why they putting dominance in fking scuttle.

Fiona Sparrow1 votes

Which could sometimes...well...just talk to my sister, lol!MissFortune

Fiona Sparrow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fiona Sparrow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nbThG8ok,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-01-14T05:08:36.056+0000)

Which could sometimes...well...just talk to my sister, lol!MissFortune

gileskd3 votes

finally we can bring back 2nd top! [slayer-jinx-wink]

Kadexe3 votes

I don't envy whoever's tasked with balancing things like this. There are so many moving parts, and any change you make will inevitably have unintended consequences. You can try to predict what will happen, but something always breaks unexpectedly. Like the scuttle crab changes - they were supposed to cause more fighting between junglers, but in the end, what mattered more was which midlaner has priority.

WoΘxer3 votes

LOL scuttle fight is already about which champ is stronger at lvl 2. Whole idea about scuttler change is freakin dumb.

Yordle Xayah2 votes

Yeah, just the Jungle...

[sg-lulu]

6KEMBE4ORBA2 votes

They can't (and do not want) to balance the entire game NEWSFLASH.

Jungle is the least problem rn.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

Everyone blames jungle v. 8173.828472

Stop pushing your lane, stay near the side where your ward is to give you distance from a gank.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Even making the camp respawn time high and leaving XP as is would probably cause more interaction.

It'd also bring back counterjungling because a failed gank means a lot more time and a lot more resources to poach.

Just Monikha2 votes

What s wrong actually :

  • Scuttle crab : Give more XP than buffs, is fkn RNG (STOP WITH AIDS RNG) and gives absurd amount of mana
  • Machete : Is just so bad actually, it feels bad to have this as a starter, no joke
  • Dragon : Once again aids RNG is striking, also no one in your team will follow the fkn call unless it s a fkn Infernal (for real bring back old dragon, for the laners imagine if turrets had RNG, that s how it feels when you see the dragon as a jungler)
  • Krugs : Super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, super, boring and long to do, feels like you passed whole game doing this aids camp.
  • Nashor : Aids cc monster with no damage at all
  • Plants : Cancer RNG (no one use those timers) and CC
  • Smite : Red smite is overtuned and cancer (damage reduction + true damage/second + gives vision), blue smite is kind of ok

Conclusion : Jungle actually is aids

ApollyonBainer1 votes

Idk what youre talking about farming your jg is so important. Sure it gives less exp now but exp is still important. And now its even more important to do full clears early to keep up or pass the rest of your team/the other team. Like how could more gold and experience points be a bad thing. Thats what Im wondering

Frosted Tips7 votes

They are nerfing the Exp from each camp and many junglers only take 2 of their 4 camps (excluding buffs) and then gank non-stop because leaching exp is already better than farming the jungler. So now camps will be worth less so leaching will be even more prominent.

ApollyonBainer1 votes

Idk man youre a higher elo than me but is that really the case? Im just not seeing it

Flitchee1 votes

Yes it is, If jungle exp/gold is low, and spawn times don't reflect that... unless you're udyr or yi, but even they get more from ganking lots of times anyways, farming your jungle and not ganking is just situational at best. Like imagine this, lots of times with the absurd damage nowadays, you can walk into lane and get flash 100% of the time nearly, or if not that flash and a kill if the gank is performed properly, IE not rushing it and waiting for the exact right time to engage the fight. Turret plating to me, seems to have made this issue even worse, you get more gold if you kill a laner in conjunction to the kill gold. So add the extra gold incentive, and the exp from lane minions/the kill if you happen to get it, it just.. makes farming the jungle a terrible idea most of the time, not to mention with the game being so snowbally and gank heavy, every time you farm too much, you're leaving a lane open to a gank and not being there to counter it, or at least missing the opportunity to gank a different lane if you happen to be too farm away from the lane being ganked.

ApollyonBainer1 votes

Yeah I mean Ive noticed that you can pop their flash pretty easily and that makes a return gank work very well but I think it all depends on the game. Like some lanes are way harder to gank than others and all that jazz. Like zed or leblanc or whatever. So sometimes its good to try to farm up and apply pressure here and there and just prep for fights around objectives early like drag or herald. But at my level sometimes it wont do you any good anyways cuz some teammates just afk farm while braindead with no map rip

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

Lets be honest change "Jungle" to "Game" and your all set.

Popperofski1 votes

Or they could just fucking balance champions from deciding the game on the first couple ganks

Butterwood1 votes

This seems like incentive to play champs like Shaco, Hecarim, and other champs who can level 2 gank. For champs like Amumu that need to rush level 6, this is a huge nerf.

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