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I'm tired of people saying that Lee is OP based on his pick/win rate

Bârd··9 votes·815 views

Seriously.

He has a 49.8% winrate, which is about as balanced as it gets.

As for the "49.8% winrate on a 'hard' champ with a 37% playrate means that he must be too strong" argument...

You know, if it were any other champion, that might be a valid point.

Not Lee; that's not what keeps him at a 50% win rate.

Look up "Confounding Variables". tl;dr, It's a statistics term for something that significantly effects the results of a data set, but is not being taken into account.

Lee has a pretty big one: the number of Lee Sin mains out there.

Lee Sin, due to a combination of:

  • Being an older champion
  • Being a fun champion
  • Having a complex kit

the guy has some of the HIGHEST average playerbase experience out there.

Ok, on a champion like Lee, the ideal winrate would be utter garbage for people with no experience, but going just a bit about 50% for people who know him inside and out.

Guess what?

Lee players with 1-5 games have a 39.44% win rate.

Lee players with 5-15 games have a 46.06% win rate.

Above that, even at 125+ ranked games, the average win rate is still only around 50-52%.

The reason Lee's average winrate is around 50% is because only 20% of the playerbase has fewer than 15 games of Lee Sin.

80% of the playerbase have practiced Lee enough to make him work, so he works.

If Riot nerfed Lee, and his average winrate were to drop to 45%, that would mean that Riot absolutely gutted him; nerfed him so hard that the THOUSANDS of Lee Sin mains can't find a way to make him work.

Face it; Lee is as balanced as he can be.

28 Comments

ChargeItDownMid5 votes

[deleted]

Eedat5 votes

high pick rate invariably artificially deflate winrates a significant amount.

Thats flat out wrong lol. This is true when a bunch of players flock to a champ theyve never played before. Lee, on the other hand, remains one of the highest average games played out of any champ in any role. People playing Lee Sin aren't inexperienced Lee Sins, so your statement is wrong.

Requiemsfire3 votes

Fiddlesticks is the highest followed by Shaco , in fact LeeSin is 34th in that category.

Bârd1 votes

I'm not sure they do a great job at reporing the "average playerbase games".

Fiddle sits at a 1% pick rate in his most popular role. With a couple odd patches where he was FOTM, Fidd hasn't ever been that popular.

In all likelyhood, they measured this stat using the mean number of games per player, possibly not using people with 0 fiddle games in their sample. This makes it very vulnerable to outliers.

Fiddlesticks is a champion who is played almost exclusively by Fiddlesticks one tricks. They make up most of the people who play Fiddle in ranked, where Lee DOES have a lot of one tricks, but he has many more people who just have him in their champion pool.

Obviously, drawing from a small sample of Fiddle fanatics would give a skewed result, compared to the massive crowds of casual Lee players.

At least, I think that's whats going on here; the pattern applies to quite a few of the other champions in the top of that list.

I mean, I'm pretty sure that the average player doesn't have 300 ranked games on Middlesticks. That doesn't make sense.

Requiemsfire1 votes

I personally don't think player average per game for Lee sin is a stat we should be looking at but rather a growing player base over the past 3 patches relative to the win rate. Unless you're content with the idea that 37% of all junglers are Lee sin mains.

You mention Lee sin one tricks but that actually skews his player average considering the number of people who aren't one tricks at all and merely play them casually. Furthermore this increased playrate didn't drive down his winrate because his winrate actually grew over the course of those patches stabilizing hovering at 49%-51% over the past 3 weeks.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Eedat3 votes

You are using info that you flat out can't prove. Its literally only assumptions. You have absolutely zero way of proving that Galio is only used in counter scenarios versus 1-tricks and mains playing him every game regardless. Absolutely unusable info.

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

Eedat2 votes

Again, you are using numbers that are completely based off assumptions. You are also not factorin in that junglers dont lane against other champions so they dont get hard countered. All you are doing is making assumptions off more assumptions with literally zero proof to back anything up. Its literally just 100% unverifiable bullshit.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Eedat1 votes

Again, more bs with absolutely no proof. You don't get to just assume "ideal situations". Its literally 100% assumptions that you have absolutely zero way of proving. You just keep rambling the same old completely made up bs numbers like "1% ideal situation 3% of the time" but have absolutely zero factual evidence defining said "ideal scenario". How the hell can you make a statstic for said "ideal scenario" when you have absolutely no way of defining what the "ideal scenario" even is?

Then you will straight up just make bullshit up out of thin air like:

The majority of galio's games are in the top .1% of situations where galio perfectly fits into his team's comp, counters the enemy team's comp, and is played by the top 1% of players who are familiar with galio.

You're just spewing fabricated bullshit at this point. There is absolutely NO WAY that you can prove ANY of these claims you make

You're just regurgitating the same old assumptions over and over while attempting to portray them as fact.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Eedat1 votes

It is literally ALL assumptions. The absolutely critical thing you are completely neglecting.

League of Legends is not a coin flip or dice roll

You are completely neglecting thousands upon thousands of factors, trends, metas, skill levels, and probably most unquantifiable, human error. You are making assumptions with absolutely no evidence or pretense for your parameters. You need evidence to make these claims. You can't say there is a top 1% of "ideal games" without having any way to prove what an "ideal game" even is. Or what the difference between the top 1% is to the top 2%. What if its a completely negligible factor? You dont know and you cant prove literally any of it.

PermabannedGaren3 votes

Someone downvoted you because they were a stupid idiot who is incapable of typing a coherent rebuttal, and on some level their half-mind was aware of it, so they merely chose to abuse their ability to bury you in downvotes. More will come.

MinaZer03 votes

Well i dont know much about your above post but a Lee Sin that builds warrior then full armor shouldnt assassinate ANYONE instantly, but it happens sooo, Overpowered.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

why shouldn't full armor assassinate anyone

some assassins kill you by being difficult (or impossible) to stop

MinaZer01 votes

Becuase hes a Fighter/Slayer, not the other way around, and builds are how you distiguish what a champion is capable of extrinsicly, so obviously a full armored champion assassinating you isnt balanced i.e. Overpowered, also those arent called assassins , there is a subclass for everything, and that would be a diver or juggernaut

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

I guess now it would be, he's an old design though.

That's nothing new btw, if you don't die to full armor then full armor will get starved, but otherwise you'll give him level advantage or something

WalkingInACircle2 votes

He's overpowered and I've never cared too much about winrates. Correlation != causation anyway, it's like people don't know theres a system in this game designed to give players (and therefore players on champions) a 50% winrate. Or, say, the commoness of counters, etc.

But yes. Lee. The red -> krugs is OP.

Bârd1 votes

Thank you for presenting a good reason for your opinion.

I don't think Lee is the problem there so much as the general state of the jungle, but it's nice seeing a change of pace from people either taking win/pick percentages at face value or just flat out saying "He does damage and is too tank no counterplay plz nerf."

BIackfox1 votes

Finally a non retard lee post ty

Astôlfo1 votes

Meh, it's just the time of the year for Lee QQ again.

Brain Errör 4041 votes

Vayne too.

The Jacuzzi Job1 votes

Yeah me too. He is OP because of his overloaded, resourceless kit with extreme mobility and damage that started ruining this game a long time ago when we were few happy players, playing all day and enjoying ourselves, so that now every champion has to have the same kind of toxic kit to reach his level of "fun" and power. The sheer amount of players that play champions like Lee, Riven and Yasuo push them to no rework and no nerf zone and that makes me wish that I could just go back to the time when they didnt exist and we could enjoy not balanced but fun gameplay that didnt make us feel like shit for not playing a certain overloaded nerf-immune champion...

L0ve Is Blue1 votes

A champion that is deemed hard to play shouldn't have 50% winrate with a pickrate that high. Period.

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