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Is Riot Pushing Maokai to the Support Role?

RecessHero··8 votes·3,457 views

This is an honest question. Let me explain my thoughts.

With his rework, Maokai had his innate tankiness removed from his kit. Now he has a long range engage/disengage tool that is basically a prime support spell. A staple every top-lane tank has in league is some sort of shield or innate tank ability in their kit, but Maokai no longer has that. Without this ability, Maokai will be severely lacking as an the engager/diver that he used to be, as he can be easily blown up in a fight.

The thing that is confusing to me, is that Maokai still has his old primary engage tool, his W. This allows him to lock down a target, and his old ultimate let him live. Now, if Maokai tries to pull off the flash + W engages, the enemy team could just easily turn on him and kill him. In his new kit, his W feels like a strictly disengage/peel tool. When you combine that with his new ultimate, it seems Maokai now has the kit of a support, as you don't need a lanes worth of gold to make efficient use of his kit.

Thoughts?

TL;DR: Because Maokai lost his innate tank ability, it feels like his W and new ultimate will be best utilized as a support disengager/peeler.

EDIT: I should have stated that I'm not against the idea of Maokai as a support or jungle, and that wasn't my intention of the discussion. I more wanted talk to about his top lane viability as a tank and as a primary engager/diver.

EDIT #2: Someone posted this video from LS giving his perspective on new Maokai that I thought would be really helpful to the discussion https://youtu.be/cxJMuSaLtVM?t=5m

58 Comments

chipndip15 votes

JG, not support.

RecessHero2 votes

Yep, I can see that. But I also think he will be more viable as support than he previously was.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

More viable doesn't mean that he's a support...more viable that D tier isn't that viable lol

Now

What the change does do is it takes Maokai away from being a straight up engage/team fight tank to being a peeling/counter engage tank, almost a zone control tank if you will. Maokais new kit makes counter engage his strong suit as his passive allows him to sustain poke/getting jumped on without instantly having to base. And his ult/q-w are all great peel tools for when the enemy dives into your carries

RecessHero2 votes

I think you made the case why Maokai is more of a support or jungle than top laner now. Peel and counter engage are strong characteristics of the support role. Also, with the change to his sapplings, he will potentially be able to hold on against ranged supports and poke down melee ones.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Maokai will be no where near as tanky in those roles as he will from the top lane. That's the thing people don't understand about taking those tank top laners to support. They just don't have the gold income/item space from the support role to truly be the tanks they need to be. Have you ever seen a Nautilus support try and team fight late game without a huge lead already built, he gets wrecked because he just isn't that tanky. It'd be the same thing for Maokai. Between really needing the sightstone, and probably FOTM, Maokai is already way behind the tanky curve with zero resistance two items in. Don't forget boots, unless he goes ninja tabi or merc treads, he still has zero resistances (and not many if he does), not to mention he only has one kind. You gotta figure you really wanna leave one slot open for pink wards which leaves you with two slots. Now Maokai can still go Frozen Heart Spirit from there. The problem is, you won't even start those items until like 17 minutes in. By that time, there already too much damage for Maokai to tank.

Not from jungle, there's more flexibility. Get cinderhulk, into tank and while you're a little behind the curve of a top lane Maokai, you're still on track since the change to the build path is still a good rank item. Whereas top lane, you can go straight into Sunfire Cape-Spirit Visage and by 20 minutes into the game have the resistances and the health necessary to tank for your team.

And for what it's worth, there's nothing saying that peelers/counterengagers can't be top laners. Poppy is incredibly good at that and she sees most of her play top lane.

I don't discount that you can find success with Maokai support but if you are gonna play that why not just play Braum or Tahm Kench who don't really need items to be able to rank for your team?

RecessHero2 votes

Missing the point. Maokai wont work as a tank top lane very well anymore because they took away is main tank ability, his only shield/damage reduction spell.

I'm asking if they are forcing him to support because they took away his tank ability and he doesn't need a lanes-worth of gold to make effective use of his kit. His new ult is long range, his sapplings are good poke in bot lane and his W is good peel.

He wouldn't be played as a diver/engager in support like he would at top. He would be a peeler/disengager/long-range engager.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

He's not a diver engager anymore no matter the role (for what it's worth) but he's not a support. All of these problems with him not being able to tank the same way as before, how can't you see that if he can't tank on a top laners income how could he ever be expected to tank on a supports income. Your logic just doesn't make sense to me. I don't disagree with you that he's a lot less generically strong in the top lane. He's a good niche pick against dive heavy team comps but you still need gold to get tanky and get to the point where you can do your job, even if the job is just to peel for your ad. What do you think happens to your support Maokai come level 9 when they root an enemy Talon off of your ad? Does Talon just say "you're right my bad how rude of me, Maokais here?" No Talon will realize that Maokai is likely sitting on sightstone, boots, and part of of a completed FOTM or Talismen and will have zero way to not just die at the hands of Talon. So sure cool you peeled for the AD, but your dead. Not worth. If that same Maokai is top lane or jungle since jungle Maokai is coming back, and has say a Sunfire cape (an ten you just can't afford to build on support), Talon won't have any chance to killing Maokai before getting blown up since Maokai will be, you guessed it, too tanky.

Ultimately, Maokai will still need a team to deal damage and just have Maokai go peel and be a tank so that they can dps.

RecessHero2 votes

He's NOT expected to tank now like before. That's my whole point. No support truly tanks in LoL right now, but there are tankier ones like Leona, Braum, Naut, Tahm, Ali, etc.

The WHOLE point of my post is that he lost his top tank viability. I think you need to reread what I wrote.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

He already worked well in the support role before the rework, it's actually a lot of fun and I recommend you try it out before making judgements of it.

That said, I see what you mean, and I agree with your concerns. I think that they were supposedly aiming to make him better in the jungle, but we shall see how that goes. I hope that he does not lose viability in other positions just to become useful in one or two.

RecessHero2 votes

Yep, I have played him in support, and it is fun. I didn't mean to make judgements in my post about whether or not he is fun as a support, I meant to discuss if he lost his top-lane tank viability and his diver/engager identity.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Ah I see, I am sorry for misunderstanding

[slayer-jinx-catface]

RecessHero1 votes

Sorry for the confusion in my post.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

No worries, you raised some excellent points!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

RenownedWheat423 votes

{quoted}

With his rework, Maokai had his innate tankiness removed from his kit.

No he didn't. His passive now heals for a HELL of a lot more. It's considerably more valuable. He no longer has the option of AoE DR, but his sustain is considerably better than it used to be.

Also, flash+r is a ridiculously awesome engage tool. If the enemy still tries to run from your ult, just slow them with the two/three options you have available to you (two regularly, three if jungle with blue).

All this said, Maokai worked well in Support before and this doesn't really push him more to that role. If anything, it's less of a good idea for the loss of the DR.

Gank set-up for jungle Mao is gonna be great though.

RecessHero1 votes

True, he does get more sustain, but I don't necessarily think that makes him any tankier. It helps him live in the jungle and in lane, but without some sort of shield or damage reduction ability, I feel like he has lost his identity as a diver/engager.

RenownedWheat421 votes

Sustain is tankiness though. If I dive into a team fight with W, get chunked down a bit then IMMEDIATELY heal back up with my first auto attack, then do a full spell rotation and heal up AGAIN from whatever else the enemy dished out, I've effectively had an extra 20% health. His flash+r is also an incredible engage tool regardless of whether you're flanking or just running straight into the fight.

These are good changes, not "time to shelf Maokai" changes.

RecessHero1 votes

I don't think you will have all that time to get a full rotation off anymore, though. That's my point. I think he easily just gets blown up before he gets many heals off.

Dryditch2 votes

Unless you're 3 levels down, you have time for rotations on a tank... or do you just not think tanks are tanky?

RecessHero1 votes

Well that's my point, Maokai lost his tanky abilities. So I do not think he is that tanky anymore. Every tank has a shield or some other form of damage reduction. If Maokai goes in with his new kit, the enemy team could just easily lock him up and kill him pretty easily. Items alone don't make tanks. You need items AND tank abilities to effectively tank in LoL.

Dryditch2 votes

So you're saying that the shitty Alistar ultimate that was picked because it made squishies tankier is the only thing that made Maokai tanky?

He still has two different ways of proccing Colossus,and he builds tanky.

Rammus lost his damage mitigation. Mundo has pure healing, no reduction. Cho Gath gets health, not resistances or mitigation. Volibear has healing.

Maokai will be more than fine.

RecessHero1 votes

You just listed four champs that are rarely seen, aren't pure tanks besides Rammus and are in desperate need of their own reworks. Also, you listed mainly fighters/bruisers. Apples to oranges comparisons.

Dryditch2 votes

Maokai still has absurd CC, healing, and can easily build tank. The only "tank ability" they took away was an uninteractive mana drain that wasn't part of his identity anyway.

He's been shifted over to the bruisery end of tanks.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

If it's a top or jungle Maokai, there's enough tankiness there to survive that long to get to that point as long as the gold lead is relatively equal and that Maokai didn't build ROA (because ROA Maokai is garbage)

Guyy Fieri1 votes

You realize that passive gets four seconds chopped off of his passive cd every time he casts a spell or takes damage right? So a Maokai getting up in the front lines of a team fight will easily be able to proc his passive 3-4 times if he's playing properly and being the one getting focused

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Don't forget about courage of the colossus btw, that's a pretty insane shield for team fighting purposes.

Champion Skin2 votes

The main problem I see with Maokai R as any sort of engage is how slow it is..... and the enemy tanks are usually in front and will just absorb the ult.... yeah rooting the enemy tank also helps but not like you want to actually engage onto the enemy tank... and even if the tank is rooted they can still cast their abilities (if they are in range to do so)

Though if the enemy for some reason doesn't have a tank then I can see it working or at least being able to zone off the enemy team while your team takes a tower/dragon or something like that

And of course for ganking it works just fine (probably?)

RenownedWheat421 votes

You have so many methods of slowing down people who run, if you're going straight at the team. Flash+r will lock down their frontline, e+q to slow down runners (smite if you're a jungler) and W to secure at least one more person. Maokai has PLENTY of lockdown options.

Champion Skin2 votes

You have so many methods of slowing down people who run, if you're going straight at the team. Flash+r will lock down their frontline, e+q to slow down runners

Why would the enemy run away instead of just standing in the hole created by the frontline getting hit? Since it stops on hitting an enemy champion (the frontline) and that will create a gap where the enemy team can safely stand and fight back without getting rooted

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Well that's the thing, I don't think Maokai is a straight up engage tank anymore. Riot said they want to see him fill a more unique niche, well I think he's not the supreme counter engage tank. Sure you can't engage a fight with him as easily, that's fine. Then don't pick him to be the engage pick him to peel against comps like Shyvana, Yasuo, Katarina, Lucian, Alistar, etc. Maokai would do so much to stop teams like that that want to go in and dive the back line but can't because they get CC'd upon entering Maokais zone of control.

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

basically a prime support spell

Not really.

Even if it was, consider that Galio's rework made him into a peeling champion with a follow-up ult, and yet he can still be played top, jungle, and sometimes mid.

RecessHero2 votes

But Galio has a shield in his kit. Maokai doesn't have a shield or any damage reduction ability. I think that is a big distinction. Also, when I think of tankier engage/disengage support ultimates, safe and/or long-range ones come to mind. Braum, Naut (even though he isn't a "true" support), Leona, etc.

What I also mean by being a prime support spell is that it doesn't take a lanes-worth of gold to get the best use out of it. Maokai's new ultimate will be just about as effective whether he is 6/0/0 and fed or 0/6/0 and feeding.

RenownedWheat421 votes

Maokai can heal for 9% of his health twice in a couple seconds once his passive is up, maybe three or four times in a big team fight.

RecessHero1 votes

True, but I think if a team turns on him during a flash + W, he could easily be blown up before he gets a few heals off, which would make that point moot.

I could be wrong, as it's all speculation at this point

Ralanr2 votes

Galio doesn't have a shield, he has straight up damage reduction.

RenownedWheat423 votes

Spell shield on his W. He does have straight Dr, you're right, but it's both.

Ralanr1 votes

It's an MR shield. Honestly I tend to forget about single damage type shields because they aren't something I make a habit of relying on.

RecessHero1 votes

Yeah, he gives allies damage reduction, has damage reduction to himself and a passive MR shield in his kit. He has quite the tank abilities.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

You're so stuck on this not having a shield thing. It really is ok for some tanks to not have shields lol. He's still a tank, I don't see the dilemma.

RecessHero1 votes

How is he still a tank when he has no tank abilities? Name one other tank that is like that. You can build him tanky, but he will still be much worse than other tanks because of his lack of innate tankiness.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

He has immense amount of crowd control...and with gargoyle stoneplate live and keystones like courage of the collasus there are plenty of ways for Maokai to tank.

RecessHero1 votes

Lots of supports have tons of CC, too. They can also proc CoC easily, too. Crowd control doesn't equal tank. Shields and damage reduction = tank. That's like saying Ashe is a tank, she has the best CC ability in the game and can also build tanky if she wants to.

Ralanr2 votes

He was pushed from the top lane to the jungle.

RecessHero1 votes

I could see that, which I would prefer, tbh. I think he would also make an even better support than he was. But I still think he lost of a lot of his identity as primary engager/diver.

Could be wrong. Will have to have some fun testing him out, I guess :)

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxJMuSaLtVM

Go to 5:16

RecessHero1 votes

Wow, I usually disagree with LS on a lot of things but I am happy to agree with him here :)

sta supra2 votes

Each time Maokai casts a spell or is struck by an enemy’s spell, Sap Magic’s cooldown is reduced by 4 seconds (once per spellcast)

10/30/50/70/90/110/130 flat, plus 4.5/5.5/6.5/7.5/8.5/9.5/10.5/% maximum health (at levels 1/6/9/11/13/15/17)

COOLDOWN 30/25/20 seconds (at levels 1/6/17)

this is from the 7.9 patch notes

after playing with a maokai in game and seeing these states i think he is going to be best in top or jungle as he is going to want to be on the front line so he can heal fast from enemy spells that hit him. supports have low gold income meaning he wouldn't be able to get as much health and resistances to keep him going in the front.

woodvsmurph2 votes

Actually, he is being pushed back into the jungle where he was played long ago. More damage from saplings via bushes... now where do we have lots of those?...

Stemw31 votes

Well, in the last (and first, so it could be a huge bias from me for not knowing how to play against a Maokai-Supp,) time I played against him he controlled the bottom half of botlane due to the 2 bushes. He would just throw sapling in there anytime anyone of us tried to go near these.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

No. Even before the rework his kit looks like it should be fantastic for a support on paper. P gets charged more with more people in bot lane, lots of CC from his Q, W, and E, E can be used as a pseudo ward, ult can give your carry damage reduction.

But in practice it just doesn't work. I can't tell you WHY it didn't work whenever I tried it, but it just didn't. I don't see how the rework will change that either. If I were to hazard a guess as to why it doesn't work, it's that he's too item dependent to work in bot lane despite all he has in his kit.

RecessHero2 votes

He didn't really work as an engage support before his rework because he had to get within melee range to use his kit to its full potential. And with out items and experience, his old ultimate wasn't nearly as effective. Supports are usually levels down than the rest of the champs in the game, so if you are diving in to engage, you could get blown up much more easily. Alistar works because his ultimate has so much reduction on it.

Where Maokai did previously work as a support was as a peeler. He could easily protect carries with his ult, W and Q. You had to completely change his play style to make his support kit work.

His rework makes him a much better support because his ult is much safer to use and doesn't need gold to make it work well.

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