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Here is a list of reasons why Cassiopeia's Shackle doesn't work but Khazix and Viktor's Shackles do!

5G8Nri0B54··64 votes·12,293 views

Let's not beat around the bush here. Khazix and Viktor 's Passives DO shackle them, however, they work, why?

There are a number of factors that makes it work for these champions but not Cassiopeia. Luckily you understand some of them, sadly, you are completely unaware of the other ones. Let's start with the blindingly obvious one first, the one you look like you understand.

  1. UN-SUBTLY making it clear this Passive is intended to be a shackle to make sure she is shit early game is NOT FUN

In short, those "free stats" aren't so much free stats as they are power locked away.

-"Free" 20% CD - Look at her Q. It's not just un-satisfying because it does little to no damage without E, but it's also un-satisfying because of how badly it flows now that it's cooldown is LONGER than the poison duration. So how do you get her Q to return to it's original state (CD-wise)? By getting stacks for her Passive to get that arbritrary 20% CD, with that extra CD, her Q becomes slightly more like how it once was.

-"Free Deathcap" - I'm sure you've heard this a thousand times already. But having thousands of AP doesn't mean jack if ALL of her AP ratios are complete and utter trash. In fact, it comes off as manipulative, tricking gullible players into thinking getting all that AP is so "super special awesome" when all you achieved was make her closer to what she once was.

-"Free lifesteal on her E" - First of all...have you read my multiple threads on the criticisms of your choice of making her E powerful? There's that. But there's also the fact that you balanced Cassiopeia around the fact that she will have a little heal in her E, meaning if her E doesn't heal her, she is incomplete...hence, garbage. You need to work so hard just to turn an incomplete champion into a complete one. Now why does this not work for Cass but for Khazix and Viktor ? More at the end!

COMPARISON: Notice how none of Khazix or Viktor 's Passive gives any free stats. And their ratios are not complete trash to downplay the stats they do get. Viktor 's Passive is NOT free stats despite what some may think. Viktor sacrifices an item slot AND he pays gold to upgrade his Passive.

2)** You gave a short-ranged high-risk mage with garbage early-mid game............an extra set of hoops to jump through to become viable**

You can say how much your 4.21 changes flattens her curve. But you never denied the fact that she is STILL a hyper-carry even if less extreme, and this is a problem. Why is it so important for you to change Cassiopeia into something she's not supposed to be from the start?

COMPARISON: Look at Khazix , Viktor , and Syndra . THEY ARE NOT HYPER-CARRIES! They aren't shat on early-mid game, in fact, Viktor dominates his mid-games. So while they are "shackled" somewhat, they can live with it.

NOW...here's a few less obvious ones that hurts your Passive.

!!! 3) Thematic Inconsistency: The act of POISONING an opponent achieves the goal of doing jack damage and...makes Cassiopeia stronger? !!!

This Passive is what made me doubt your understanding of the Poison fantasy in the first place. Why is a POISON champion spending much more time BUFFING herself than she is DEBILITATING the opponent? The little bit of debilitation she inflicts (slow, the most common CC, and a very conditional stun), are extremely brief and doesn't fullfill the Poison fantasy. Pre-rework, fine, her poison actually mattered via damage. Post-rework? It exists purely to enable her most hated ability and to...make herself stronger instead.

COMPARISON: tl;dr - being shackled FITS these champions. Khazix is your generic "The Thing" type monster, only less scary and more fantasy. He starts off as a small bug, but as he consumes, he continues to grow non-stop. Syndra's entire identity revolves around an old fart literally shackling her powers. Viktor's is very well done. He is the first of his kind, his own prototype. In his case,** he treats himself like an item** and upgrades HIMSELF as though he is an item. To further solidify this theme, he even loses an item-slot to accommodate a piece of himself. Viktor is the perfect example of such an evolving theme working.

  1. AGENCY

This one kinda explains itself doesn't it? Notice how Cassiopeia can't choose when she evolves, she can't choose what she evolves. They just...happen.

  1. Cassiopeia's Passive is a chore in part because it is STACK BASED, yet in the worst way imaginable thanks to her mile-stones

I hinted at this before in point #2. But Cassiopeia's early-mid game is garbage. Even if you flattened her curve, she isn't Tristana whose early-mid game is clearly far too effective for her god-like late game. Cassiopeia genuinely struggles to not get stomped...so you decided to make her work at building her stacks while struggling to avoid getting Fizzed or Orianna 'd in the face?!

COMPARISON: Viktor Khazix's are not STACK-BASED These champions have evolving Passives, however they are not jumping over the hoops inherent in a Stack-Based mechanic (working to build up stacks...while also laning against another opponent). In this case, you may be wondering why I'm not comparing Cassiopeia with Stack-based champions instead. Well...

a) Character limit :p

b) You don't tend to read awfully long threads, and this thread is long enough as is. : /

ALTERNATIVE POINT OF VIEW:

You ever notice how Rengar technically has TWO Passives? One very powerful and meaningful jumping Passive integral to his identity and gameplay...and one completely optional Passive for those feel like playing the stacking game? Yeah, I'm not saying you should give Cassiopeia her own "Bonetooth Necklace" ("Snakefangs Bra"?). However, consider making her rather unfun and overly-limiting Passive a pure and OPTIONAL bonus and give her a Passive that actually works.

PS - and I also feel the need to re-iterate that her rework has multiple problems, her E-centric focus being the top problem. Her Passive...is just one of her problems.

136 Comments

eyes wide shut31 votes

It's always fun to end the game with 900 ap with a void staff and feel like I'm doing the damage that I could do with a 300 ap ahri. Very satisfying working for all those passive stacks.

I'm not sure how I could be more sarcastic here.

Ariel the Cruel6 votes

Don't worry. By 900 AP, Viktor can pretty much 1-shot her with his E.

DUDE BRO3 votes

I also like the way no matter how hard I dominate early game and double the items of my enemy, they still do the same/more damage as me, because my passive hasn't magically kicked in yet.

Yet when I do equally well, I'll always be way less powerful.

This is a fun mechanic and makes me feel good.

RiotRiot Stashu29 votes

Hello again Ginga~

Most of these points have come up in some form or another here and here, and so it's something we've been thinking about quite a bit.

I'm totally on board with your larger goal here, which I take to be: figure out why other, similar passives are fun while Cassiopeia's isn't, and use that knowledge to improve Cassiopeia.

Many of your points revolve around Cassiopeia's kit not supporting a hypercarry curve (1, 2, and 5 all talk about this). While we are not totally flipping it, but we agree, and we are addressing this directly in 4.21. We'd like to see how far this goes between 4.21 and 5.1, and respond if it's not enough on this front.

Some of your other points are independent of power concerns: the ways in which Aspect of the Serpent is "free," how it suffers from lack of agency, and how other scaling passives are more thematically aligned with the champion. All of these could contribute to the dissatisfaction with the passive, and perhaps some more than others. One that stands out to me is that aside from the surrounding system, the rewards themselves just don't feel very satisfying as say, Kha'Zix's evolutions. These are all things we're considering moving forward into 5.1 and beyond.

We are not done here, but I'd like to really get a good feel for the effects of 4.21 before deciding which path to take. When that happens, I'll be sure to raise the discussion here (on boards), get some preliminary feedback, and then get the take-aways form that into testing on PBE.

Stez00726 votes

We already have had plenty of time to play with the 4.21 changes on PBE. Pushing them to live for a few months won't make us hate it any less.

Don't bother pushing it live, don't wait it out. We're done waiting. You've gotten plenty of feedback, it's time to talk changes. All you're doing is continuing to blow us off. We do NOT appreciate it. Get off your damn high horse, there is nothing left to discuss about her current state. It's been done to death. Get to work on the next update NOW, not later. NOW.

Fluppets16 votes

I'm totally on board with your larger goal here, which I take to be: figure out why other, similar passives are fun while Cassiopeia's isn't, and use that knowledge to improve Cassiopeia.

It's the bonuses giving AP and CDR and subsequently ability base damage, ratio's and CD's nerfed to accomodate said passive. The passive is not an addition it's a substraction followed by an addition. That's why it's not fun. please read my other posts, it feels like you designed Cassiopeia on a spreadsheet for a perfect scenario.

Many of your points revolve around Cassiopeia's kit not supporting a hypercarry curve (1, 2, and 5 all talk about this). While we are not totally flipping it, but we agree, and we are addressing this directly in 4.21. We'd like to see how far this goes between 4.21 and 5.1, and respond if it's not enough on this front.

Tristana (for example) needs IE and Statik Shyv to reach her hypercarry status, the rest of her passive is just icing on the cake. Cassiopeia needs level 18, at least 3-4 items and 400 stacks. We're not saying your passive is bad, it's not a passive. It's just taking stats away and giving them back later. The only positive aspect all agree upon, and you know this, is the E giving lifesteal. Why? because it's unique, ability/gameplay specific and just a bonus, not a compensation.

We are not done here, but I'd like to really get a good feel for the effects of 4.21 before deciding which path to take. When that happens, I'll be sure to raise the discussion here (on boards), get some preliminary feedback, and then get the take-aways form that into testing on PBE.

**I am concerned about this. **Why? because I feel we are going to get number buffs until at some point she will be strong enough, but not too strong and still not viable enough given the meta so you can leave her alone. With that mindset will not fix her core issues, her rework should be done without numbers and you should have "the feel" of this champion before you started working on her.

We dont demand Cassiopeia to be viable in LCS, not every champ can be so, but we do want her to be fun, regardless of strength. (Hint: right now she is neither fun nor strong) (winning is fun too, so strength too please.)

Can you please Clarify (yes/no is fine):

  • There are going to be Cassiopeia changes in the PBE, aimed at the 4.21 Live patch?
  • After assessing these (4.21) changes, are you planning on changing the passive?
    • No, only number tweaks.
    • Yes, change threshold bonuses based on feedback.
    • ASAP (already have some ideas)
    • With sufficient time and resources (long haul) (im not expecting an ETA here)
  • Yes, Fundamentally change the Passive
    • ASAP
    • Long haul
  • Are there any changes you are already thinking about for after 4.21 Live?
  • can you make a Pro/Con list for a passive that grants general stat bonuses (AP, CDR) vs specific bonuses(example: E lifesteal)
    • specifically wouldnt it be easier to balance, simpler to control power curve and more clear to players if bonuses were ability-specific, rather than AP or CDR, which is applied to all abilities?
Tendrian20 votes

figure out why other, similar passives are fun while Cassiopeia's isn't

Because every single one of these champions has "evolution" as a big theme of their design. They communicate clearly "if you are going to play this champion, you will not start at full power" and, more importantly, it has always been a part of them

Now Cass on the other hand: a) Doesn't have evolution as a core theme at all, making it feel alien and tacked on. Yes you can bend her lore in a way that it kind of makes sense, but "it kind of makes sense" is not enough to justify its presence, especially not if it impacts the feeling of the champ so heavily.

b) Players have been enjoying her for years while having access to all of her powers during the laning phase. That fact alone means that she will always just feel like a lesser version of her old self when she is gated by a stacking mechanic. Please keep in mind that you are not working on a blank slate here.

The entire "ramping up" thing simply runs counter to the expectations people have when they are playing Cassiopeia, which is why this kind of mechanic will never feel satisfying on her. Its simple like that, really.

Saevum12 votes

While having access to all of her powers during the laning phase. That fact alone means that she will always just feel like a lesser version of her old self.

This, i feel it every time i play her. That difference.

Serpents Embrace8 votes

Players have been enjoying her for years while having access to all of her powers during the laning phase.

This is so important, but as far as Stashu seems to be concerned no one played Cassiopeia before he got his grubby hands on her.

Kowe The Ewok30 votes

Don't you trust the PBE community?

You are saying you want to wait for 4.21. But the PBE communiyt already gave a clear response: The new changes (comming in 4.21) still leave her horribly unfun to play since Q, W and R each feel unrewarding and dull. You again focussed everything on E with the amplification. At the current rate you could basiclly lower all her ranges to 700. Q and W don't even deal damage to creeps without E anyways. (This is not an advice)

You have already received this feedback from PBE players! Like you received feedback before the whole rework rolled out to live. People are not liking it. They didn't like it back then and they don't like what is comming next.

No offense, but you really come accross stubborn. Ignoring direct feedback and forcing everything to live-LoL hoping that 2 out of 100 people say something positive out of it to justify the changes.

** You already received feedback from PBE players! Why ignore it yet again?**

kitcat3005 votes

Are you sure? I just went through some PBE posts and they seem to go both ways.

Half are mad because they have lost the identity and play-style they are accustomed to. Which I understand, having something that is yours pulled from under you is never fun.

However, the other half are raving about the incredible power she has when they adjust to this play-style and hit those power spikes. Heck, one thread said they thought she was too strong and how she is now the first mage that can solo Baron.

Kowe The Ewok14 votes

We are talking on 2 levels here.

You are talking about powerlevel, I am talking about gamplay. The powerlevel on PBE is much better than on live, nobody will say anything against that. Powerlevel however is something that can ALWAYS be fixed by numbers.

The main issue here (which most former Cass mains on PBE complain about) is how the changes effect her gameplay (even stronger focus on E while Q, W and R are near worthless on their own).

A champion being fun and balanced (in my eyes) is equally important. Currently Cass is extremely lackluster in the first category, that's what people complain about.

Serpents Embrace7 votes

Definitely, Kowe. Her power level is virtually irrelevant when she is not who she is supposed to be. As long as she only has two abilities that were considered in her power budget she will never feel rewarding to play, and she will never embody the poison fantasy that she was meant to.

5G8Nri0B5416 votes

However, the other half are raving about the incredible power she has when they adjust to this play-style and hit those power spikes. Heck, one thread said they thought she was too strong and how she is now the first mage that can solo Baron.

No one is denying she is stupid powerful, OP maybe even.

However the biggest issue isn't her viability. I thought we made this...abundantly clear in the past.

Anyways, any champion can be ludicrously strong. The people who are praising the rework for being so uber powerful do not UNDERSTAND the real problem.

Any number buffs can make a champion strong. But it can't make the champion fun.

Caustic Crusader11 votes

Okay, I'm fed up with this. I've been lessening how often I play League recently, and I'm not gonna beat around the bush: you are the reason. You keep on talking at the community about things you think we want, ignore that everybody hates it, and never go through with anything that could ever come close to satisfying the fans you've played around with for the past three months.

NOTHING ABOUT HER KIT IS FUN. I don't really understand how else to put it. Her passive curbs her power, but that's the problem: the rest of her kit is so pathetically mangled that even after maxing everything out, you're gonna be only very slightly more powerful than you had been before this disastrous rework saw the light of day. That's paid for by a half-hour of being dragged through barbed wire and table salt. That's what playing your version of Cass feels like. Like a half-hour of salty barbed wire just to be able to get back what people actually enjoyed. You talk about lane bullying, while champs like Orianna and Syndra can run around just as easily and haven't been absolutely ruined because of it. Nobody likes your idea of spamming E, it's the part of the kit everybody hated before the rework in the first place, trying to make poisons more significant shouldn't be related to having to hit the E in order to do so. It still makes everything in her kit feel like a conduit towards being an E-spamming machine, at which point you're basically playing Tristana with a way worse early game, no mobility, far worse CC options, unreliable damage output and obscene mana cost issues. Not to mention, her E is effectively an auto-attack, but you can't orb walk with spells that require you to stop and cast them, so you're either gonna be tickling them with completely worthless poisons, or sitting still trying to throw out as many Es (usually no more than three) before their bruiser jumps you and deletes you because you can't do anything about it because your champ is so far out of the meta that Anivia feels bad for her.

You keep saying that we're not done here, but it's empty words. Your actions have made it pretty clear that you have no intention of doing anything that might bear a passing resemblance to something enjoyable.

Serpents Embrace5 votes

Stop lying to us.

4.21 does not address her power curve at all. If anything, the changes do nothing but exacerbate the issue.

We are not done here, as evidenced by your continued presence on this rework. But to follow that point you feed us more lies. This isn't the first time you've claimed to want to work off of the feedback you've received in the boards, and while you've shown you're proficient in bullet listing the issues the community at large has with your rework - you consistently fail to actually address it. In fact, the vast majority of your changes only make the points you listed yourself worse. The best example will always be 4.21, where you say you agree that the E focused play style isn't cutting it for Cassiopeia players - and then add a debuff to E and nerf Q to make the kit even more E-centric.

You don't act like you want to fix this. You've shown you don't care about Cassiopeia, her rework, her viability or her identity. It's painfully obvious that this is just a job to you, one that you don't seem to take very seriously.

Naqel3 votes

When that happens, I'll be sure to raise the discussion here (on boards), get some preliminary feedback, and then get the take-aways form that into testing on PBE.

Forgive the skepticism, but given the amount of feedback that was opposed to the passive itself in the first place, and the broader approach it represents, that was in no way acted upon, I severely doubt any feedback is going to have any meaningful effect.

This whole debacle feels like someones(yours?) pet project gone awfully awry, and I honestly believe that the ONLY way to set things straight would be to revert Cass to her old-passive status, and start the work from scratch.

On a side note, the name "Aspect of the Serpent" is a horrible name, much like the "Aspect of the Dragon"(I mean, seriously, the previous buffs are all aspects of a dragon's might, why the hell is the ultimate power you get the only one whose name plainly describes what it is, instead of having an awesome name like the previous ones).

DUDE BRO15 votes

Here's a shorter reason: Viktor and Khazix have choices, and their "shackles" add extra gameplay and strategy.

Cass does not, and ALL her damage is lowered arbitrarily until certain points that you have very little/no control over, when all she gets are slight damage improvements--with no choices or strategy involved.

Saevum3 votes

Here's a shorter reason: Viktor and Khazix have choices, and their "shackles" add extra gameplay and strategy.

Cass does not, and ALL her damage is lowered arbitrarily until certain points that you have very little/no control over, when all she gets are slight damage improvements--with no choices or strategy involved.

Raw Truth Damage, there's no armor for that.

Nveriyoth7 votes

"Snakefangs bra" I laughed too much than i should have here.

BakugoBestBoy7 votes

The problem with Cass is that the person that remade her had a vision, it was "Late Game APC God" that functions like an ADC. They were so, terribly, completely wrong. What Cass did, and actually is doing again now on the current PBE iteration of the champion, was molest melee champions at level 2. Downright destroy them. She is a lane bully, a slightly more respectable version of Teemo who takes the lane early and snowballs all to hell. A champion as immobile as Cass doesn't EVER want to see late game because basically everyone has 6 items so everyone can kill her stupid squishy @$$.

Saevum3 votes

The problem with Cass is that the person that remade her had a vision, it was "Late Game APC God" that functions like an ADC.

Who thinks CC champions are a myth.

Serpents Embrace3 votes

And that Zyra and Mordekaiser are DoT mages.

Canastus6 votes

I'd like to know when we can finally play 4.21, I'm so tired of having to put up with the current iteration of the unplayable snakelady. To really make any progress in this discussion, it's necessary for us to get our hands on the latest build - no matter how horrific it is.

I just hope that Stashu finally realizes how godawful this passive is, it simply needs to go. That's one point which cannot be debated, period. If anything, she needs another rework to finally return to a viable AND fun state. And to be honest, I'd rather have CertainlyT working on it instead of Nerfmaster Sucktown Junior.

ˇ0ˇ5 votes

Read t, and I feel like you've nailed it. Cassioepeia's theme isn't and hasn't ever been her learning to live with her curse, so right from the get-go Cassiopeia's passive thematically does not make sense. Then you have some excellent reasons as to why Cassiopeia feels and is so shitty right now - she's limited and actually very weak until she gets a LOT of stacks, whereas other champions with 'evolving' or other mechanics feel and play perfectly fine without their implements, and grow stronger and stronger. Cass doesn't, and she isn't getting stronger - she's trying to get back to where she WAS, in context to her old self. This post really highlights why Cass's passive is just so poor at the moment without having to think about the actual maths.

5G8Nri0B5421 votes

Oh, shit. I forgot to talk about how the "embracing the curse" doesn't work either.

In reply to Stashu's attemtp to justify it as "embracing the curse".

What is there to embrace?

The "curse" is to turn her into a snake-lady. She is now a snake-lady. There. Done.

What is there to embrace?!

She doesn't start off as a regular human and throw daggers around like her sister Katarina. She doesn't turn into a literal armless+legless snake as she evolves. No. She starts off as a lamia. And she ends as a lamia. She's not becoming what she is. She IS what she is.

Nothing's being embraced, hence why I feel that attempt to explain away her Passive as a little phoned in.

Serpents Embrace5 votes

You've made it so clear and I fear that Stashu doesn't care to understand. :\

5G8Nri0B544 votes

I should...probably make a tl;dr...

Of course tl;dr's tends to have the issue of missing crucial details

Scampy4 votes

If you do a TL;DR, he'll take it one part of it out of context and say he's totally going in the direction you're talking about, when anyone with a 3rd grade reading level could tell you he isn't.

OyddAWqJ5r5 votes

"After reading your well thought out post I've realized I've made a huge error in my Cassiopeia rework. As you clearly stated in your post, her passive stacking buffs on her through positioning targets just doesn't make much sense. So instead, you now gain stacks every time you land Twin Fangs on any unit. Because biting the stats out of them makes more sense am I right? You're welcome! :D"

  • Stashu
Junkο4 votes

Tbh he did something even worse on PBE. He increased the required stack cap by 100, removed the E giving a stack on killing and unit and instead make her gain a few stacks every minute..

Oh and he shifted even MORE power into her E, despite people saying that's not what we want.

Saevum4 votes

Oh and he shifted even MORE power into her E, despite people saying that's not what we want.

Repeat that please

he shifted even MORE power into her E.

He shifted...

MORE power into her E.

...

despite people saying that's not what we want.

MrSlowDie5 votes

Do You know why Azir released as buggy king, rammus lore wrecked, and cass reworked without communication?? It's because FAKKIN SHURIMA EVENT. They forced their staff to rush them. WTF rito

Serpents Embrace3 votes

And what an underwhelming, terrible event it was.

RiotRiot King Cobra3 votes

I agree wholeheartedly with you in regards to the Q CD. I truly think it is the biggest reason she feels weak in the early game. Much like when Twin Fang was bugged to 0.7 seconds, the increased CD on Q really interrupts the flow of her spell patterns and it's something I'm still not entirely used to.

However, in regards to the heal on Twin Fang - I think that's a pretty cool 'extra' perk to get and it really doesn't change her overall game play pattern. It's strictly a boost in sustainability - Cassio can fight people without it all the same. This is my favorite passive boost because, to me, it FEELs like a reward.

I also think the AP boosts are fine. Whether you agree with the direction they took with Cass or not, the ratio on Twin Fang hasn't been touched and with 1000 AP they're hitting for ~800 damage every .5 seconds. That's like an ADC critting with every. single. auto. So I disagree that it doesn't feel like she has 1000 AP.

Fluppets8 votes

Nobody's argueing (how do you write this word?!) Cassio's late game E damage isn't high, but that's irrelevant when Stashu is trying to make a late-game single target hypercarry, while a tristana can do everything better than Cassiopeia at a much earlier point in the game with just two items (IE and Shyv) AND push towers AND is alot safer with W and her ult, Im not saying she should do what Tristana does, but** if Stashu is going to call her a late-game single target DPS champion, she needs to compete with similarly labeled champions.**

If a team on the LCS puts in Cassiopeia mid, the other team would go with an ADC, why bother putting in an assassin that might get fed off of her, when you can put in another DPS champion who will scale faster than her and do the same things better. Cass will try to go late game, they will push turrets and win at 25-30 minutes.

In the discussions with Stashu I've seen him read, acknowledge and propose various interesting to great ideas; but he hasnt implemented any of those because he's too stuck up on his Passive which goes hand in hand with nerfs to come together in late-game for a functioning champion.** He didnt make a champion, he made a perfect scenario.**

Every serious post, that says what they like and dont like in a constructive manner, says they like the E lifesteal. Every. single. one. Unique, non-stat bonuses like E lifesteal is THE direction Stashu needs to go and he knows this... But he can't, he's in too deep.

Example:

  • Miasma starts off at 14 seconds why? so it could get 7 seconds cd = 100% uptime at late-game combined with 25% (passive) and 5% (masteries).** That's at level 18**, W is always leveled last.
  • Noxious Blast gets a 3s CD with passive CDR, so she can get a 100% (theoretical) uptime on her speed boost, which is** 10%, ten percent!**, until level 8, 30% at level 13, seriously looking at her wiki page makes you sad, like dead puppy sad.

This is how he designed her: on a spreadsheet (that sounds weirdly dirty), with a complete focus for this ideal late-game scenario and he cant let go of it. I love Spreadsheets as much as the next guy (probably more, I LOVE spreadsheets... they make everything so clear, organised, you can calculate stuff, put colors on them an-- ok. I- ... I got carried away) but the point is that's not how you make a champion.

like, for real I told myself I ws gonna write a short reply... FML, I just cant.

Saianna2 votes

I was always afraid to fail at something. If some would yell at me i'd do everything possible to fix mess i caused. Now if I were in mr Stashu's skin i'd most likely hide under desk with my keyboard and reverse all changes while writing an apology to fans. OR at least i'd be comunicating with them.

And what really happens? No connection between us. Mr Stashu has locked himself with group of die-hard Riot-fans in a closet. And i'm afraid no matter how smart or well thought ideas we'd sent, they'll all bounce on "i don't give a.." attitude.

My prediction is: In near future some feed up LoL players with programming skills will say "f* it, let's make our own MOBA game". And if their project will be successful, then LoL gonna lose alot of customers (we now have at very least 6 other MOBAs to choose from).

5G8Nri0B5413 votes

Well he does technically communicate.

The issue is well...

You know how there are threads for Poppy , Urgot , and Taric right now asking fans what they want and what they think those two champions should be for their rework? Or how there were threads for Sion and Viktor for their reworks BEFORE they were in developments too?

Cassiopeia never had that, so Stashu was shooting in the dark. If his shot hits home, fine but risky. However if he misses, then he has to somehow salvage that missed shot.

He missed.

He only began communicating after all the resource and time was spent on her rework rather than before.

This is why there is a desperation with fixing Cassiopeia.

It doesn't matter WHAT company you are. All that time and resource spent working on a project becomes a metaphorical brick wall. The more time and resources spent, the more reluctant one is to breaking it down, which is what Cassiopeia needs. But the longer she doesn't get anything, the less dramatic her changes will be.

L7xLoTek5 votes

So... Sunk Cost Fallacy?

5G8Nri0B542 votes

Which is...?

(there are hundreds of fallacies)

L7xLoTek7 votes

In short: You spend resources on a thing, so you refuse to give up on it even if it's not smart. To be more specific: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/business-english/sunk-cost-fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/how-the-sunk-cost-fallacy-makes-you-act-stupid.html

Edit: What I'm curious about, is how on earth are the people in QA always crushing their opposition with whatever the current version of Cassiopeia is?

Edit2: In all fairness though, I actually always liked the "spam E to melt people" gameplay (especially the fools who rush you and you get a stun off), but you don't even do that damage anymore so yeah, not exactly happy with how things are.

Fluppets6 votes

This is something I've been saying quite early in this discussion: There was a team dedicated to reworking Cassiopeia, they did their job (poorly) and moved on.

All this discussion is sadly fruitless because there is no team reworking Cassiopeia, there is only Stashu doing some work in his spare time, a little number tinkering is all you're going to see in the near future (coming months). Ginga nails it on the head with his analyses, sad to say this is not "news" to me, he and many others have made this assesment from the start.

You tend to think malice is in play on Riot's part, but I just believe there are no resources being spent on Cassiopeia.* "It's the Economy, Stupid".*

The best, semi-realistic scenario would be a new rework team reworking Cassiopeia from the ground up, obviously this would not be in the near future. In the near future, we can hope for number tweaks which will make her not Suck.

Tapu Fini9 votes

Thinking of recent events, Blizzard gave up Titan, when it sounded like it was steamrolling along. Burning Dog Media was near launching Origins of Malu, but they didn't see it fleshing out. So, instead of launching, they rewrote the entire game from the ground up until it was what it needed to be.

These companies knew it was time to throw in the towel or cut their losses. The same doesn't seem to be true for Stashu, so instead we get this half-assed champion who has literally never been in a worse position than she is now, and with not even an inch of headway made.

Meanwhile, Stashu plays a Cassiopeia game once a month or so. I suppose one can only take so much of that stacking before feeling like playing a champion that gets to be good at all points in the game.

Serpents Embrace6 votes

The last time I could stomach looking at his match history I noticed a lot of Ryze games.

So I guess he was enjoying playing a "machine gun"-esque mage that actually did something over the course of the game. Oh, and has the ability to win a lane. That's nice, too.

DaCush2 votes

You sir, are an idiot. Although he may not be getting what the people on this forum may want exactly, he has been the most communitive(however you spell it) Rioter there ever was on a rework with the community and your whole argument is based on him hiding away not communicating with the community. Why don't you read up on shit before you say it. The only reason he's getting so much hate is because he's talking so much with the community. Every other rework that hasn't gone so well with the community has blown over relatively fast because theirs no communication

Fluppets11 votes

That is just not true and you seem not to have read GInga's posts (or any other posts in the LONG cassiopeia discussion).* Im not going to refrain to cursing, but it speaks volumes of your personality that you do while makin a point that is wrong... it's embaracing really, not to mention trying to act smart while making There/they're/their mistakes, ouch.*

He is getting "hate" because:

  • He did not communicate when he needed to: before and during the rework.
  • Her PBE time was the shortest of every rework so far and he ignored those test results anyway.
  • She came out as utter and complete trash, not to mention her core mechanics (E resets and Q delay) were both bugged.
  • He botched up (ok, shit happens) the PBE launch which set her back another 2 patches; more time = more impatience = more hate.
  • His vision of Cassiopeia is not consitently reflected in the actual passive, stats and abilities he has made for Cassiopeia and said mechanics are not consistent with Stashu/Riot's design principles. (and that's not even debating his vision of Cassiopeia itself.)

I'd like to point out, and you can check my posts, that I am one of the more supportive people in this discussion, but he is really testing my patience and I have alot more of that than some others.

Idaisa1 votes

Seriously, this is starting to get annoying, shut the fuck up! Just because few Cass-tards have nothing to do except whining doesn't mean Riot should listen to you and make their champion as you want.

Audiomancy14 votes

Seriously, this is starting to get annoying, shut the fuck up! Just because few Cass-tards have nothing to do except whining doesn't mean Riot should listen to you and make their champion as you want.

Go away, Stashu.

Darth Valer1 votes

So, is this 4.21 patch coming today (12/9)? I'm eager to see this buffed Cassiopeia. You know, if these number tweaks make her stronger and more viable than she is right now, I can feel content. Yes, I'm one of those who prefer raw power and meta competitiveness rather than thematic consistency and good charachter design. Her passive is still underwhelming, her E-centric appeal still non-poison related, and yet I will be satisfied if that crap is compensated by good stats and overall strength. If this was the Frejlord conflict, I would be a mindless follower of Sejuani, one of her grunting boars, perhaps. If this was the choice between Barabba and Jesus, oh God I'd choose Barabba. Please, jewish rioter masters, give me those thirthy silver coins and I'll kiss whichever non-poisony snake you'll make up.

So, yes, if Shatsu made her actually stronger with these changes (considering I already do quite well with her in her present state), he'll have bought me. He'll have my silence, my bent knee, one less foe. 'cause when I tell my friends how cool Cassio is, they won't care if she's cohesive, if she's a poison mage who deals poison damage or if she's fun, but only if she's picked by pro's, if she has a good winrate and if she can carry games.

Seriously speaking, I'm quite pessimist about the possibility that Cassio will ever resemble, in terms of kit balance, her former self, so I'll stick to what Riot mercifully offers us and praise the Rioter gods for the crumbs of bread they'll throw at us.

Saevum4 votes

So, is this 4.21 patch coming today (12/9)? I'm eager to see this buffed Cassiopeia. You know, if these number tweaks make her stronger and more viable than she is right now, I can feel content. Yes, I'm one of those who prefer raw power and meta competitiveness rather than thematic consistency and good charachter design.

If you only want numbers, go get other champs, you have for the choosing.

So, yes, if Shatsu made her actually stronger with these changes (considering I already do quite well with her in her present state), he'll have bought me. He'll have my silence, my bent knee, one less foe.

So you do love monotony, lack of strategy, lack of DoT, etc. Then, why are you here? The people posting here want an actual rework. And Rito is actually TRYING (pushing Stashu) to get a good one (it seems).

'Why?' you may be asking yourself (its a fun explanation):

Cause its an elegant manner of 'slapping the face' of the scripters (or at least that's what i want and wish to think). It would be a 'Double edged' message:

  1. Scripters, you're fkd.
  2. Community, you guys saw what we Rito did? - We are a serious company! Stay with us! Buy! Buy more!

'cause when I tell my friends how cool Cassio is, they won't care if she's cohesive, if she's a poison mage who deals poison damage or if she's fun, but only if she's picked by pro's, if she has a good winrate and if she can carry games.

From my personal perspective, that's lame and low, but suit yourself WITH OTHER CHAMPIONS. Let Cassiopeia out of that.

Seriously speaking, I'm quite pessimist about the possibility that Cassio will ever resemble, in terms of kit balance, her former self, so I'll stick to what Riot mercifully offers us and praise the Rioter gods for the crumbs of bread they'll throw at us.

Just don't come back to the boards and say: "she's perfect Rito! thanks for the raw number power!" when she isn't (or wouldn't be).

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