Let's look at Zoe from BOTH angles. Hopefully we can find some core issues like that.

Flashes··14 votes·4,742 views

"Zoe are high SKilcAP chmPA"

"ZOE faSTESt ASAsIN"

"DDINEy ChAMp"

Let's take a break from the one sided, and inane, arguments surrounding Zoe that tend to resonate in this echo chamber called the League of Legends Boards. To get a few things straight, let's go over some gameplay general concepts with Zoe.

Zoe's Q increases in damage with the distance it travels, dealing 80% damage to things caught in the blast radius and 100% to the target it detonates ON.

Zoe's early game is largely considered weaker than her mid-late game, because of the amount of long range burst she has.

Zoe's amount of cc and zoning in her bubble trouble make it good for skirmishes.

Zoe's usage of her W means that she, indeed, has a very high skill cap to play at her FULLEST potential.


Let's address the issues most people playing against Zoe have.

  1. Zoe's burst pattern feels unfair, because I can't see into the Fog of War. Her sleepy bubble trouble landing guarantees that I get one shot from a screen away.

  2. Zoe's damage in general is sky-high. Too much for the long range mage she is.

  3. Zoe's insane amount of power through her W makes it extremely unfun to play against her.

To address both 1 and 2, if compared to other artillery mages and assassins, Zoe actually does both jobs at once. She can provide long range damage, and she can also provide a quick assassination on the enemy ADC. Here's where things actually become a little less one sided. While Zoe can do both tasks effectively, she can't do either of them to a high level. It is this balance of Assassin and Mage that sets her apart, and makes her perceived as "Overloaded Infuriating".

Let's look at their damage. Xerath can deal massive damage at long range, at the expense of mobillity, just like Zoe. However, his range far surpasses hers, through both his basic abilities and his ultimate. In this sense, Zoe can't really compete through raw damage at range.

When things get closer, Zoe has her passive. However, Assassins dominating the meta, like Talon, don't really care how much damage you can deal in 2 seconds, because they can deal more.

The synergy of Zoe ensures that she has to use both aspects (heh) at once in order to become an effective champion. That means she fills the niche of a "Ranged Assassin", but still doesn't do a perfect job at it. For one, she has to actually land her E. Second, she has to actually land her Q. Finally, if she doesn't weave her AAs into the damage, she misses out on what usually is the deciding factor between a kill and 300 health.

Arguing that such a short pattern of massive damage isn't healthy is true. However, Zed does the same thing with his W E Q Electrocute. The point is, Zoe isn't unique in the "Unfair Burst Pattern" argument.

Finally, arguing that her W provides too much utility is both true, and not true. Zoe can't pick and choose what she gets. That means that both the person playing Zoe, and the person playing AGAINST Zoe, both have to think about where they're going to use their summoners. "Playing against a specific champion shouldn't mean I should adjust my playing style." Do you cower against walls to cover your vital points when not against Fiora? Do you buy Sweeping Lens as a Top Laner just to fend off Teemo's wards? Plenty of other champions introduce increased difficulty in playing your own champion through their own mechanics, and that's nothing new.


Let's address the counterarguments that many Zoe mains have.

  1. Zoe has a massive skill cap, so she's justified in having so much power. It just means they're good.

  2. Zoe's early game is weak, so that more than compensates for everything else. Just take advantage of that.

  3. Zoe's W means that she needs actual thinking to pull off her high-octane playstyle.

Let's discuss them.

  1. Zoe indeed has a massive skill cap. It's very hard to land a Smaller-Than-Ezreal's-Q sized skillshot, especially when you aim it back and forward. To those of you complaining that you get all the time: Get. Good. Dodging skillshots is not hard to do. However, getting hit with an E means that it becomes harder to actually deal with Zoe's Q, because you can't dodge it when you're sleeping. The argument of "Just get Mercurial" is valid, but is a poor argument. Building an entire item just to counter one champion that is usually in a different lane isn't very healthy. However, most of the skill cap actually comes from how early game is played, and how Zoe can react to Ws that appear, not from the difficulty in landing her E.

  2. Zoe's early game is relatively weak compared to other stages of her game. However, here is where the skill cap effect comes into play. A very good Zoe who procs 2 empowered autos and doesn't miss her Q will delete a third of your health bar at level 1. Of course, weaving in between minions is a good way to counter this, but Zoe's early game isn't the weakest. Of course, her late game isn't the strongest either, but it simply feels like it. In truth, good positioning will counter very long range Es. However, against most Zoes, you won't be facing problems in the early game unless you're getting hit by the stray back and forth Q for 100 damage or so repeatedly. It is still difficult to capitalize on this though, because most champions that go Mid Lane are usually weaker until Mid-Game.

  3. Zoe's W is indeed hard to use to its fullest potential, but it's not hard to just pick up a few hextech protobelts and rocket around dealing bursty damage. This is partially why it's so hard to shut down Zoe when she's supposedly weakest. A random redemption, a hextech protobelt, or even a heal can screw over the hard work you may have put in to make a favorable fight.


In general, both sides are lacking in their arguments, and both cherrypick arguments. Zoe may have a high skill cap, but it's mitigated by the ability to use her at an effective level even without the necessary skill cap of utilizing all 3 ignites or 3 flashes, or some weird hextech protobelt combo. Her ability to deal damage feels frustrating because it's a new way of dealing damage, but it is also Zoe's only consistent way of dealing damage. Good vision will do the same thing it will do against other assassins, and increase the amount of time one can react to Zoe's bubbles.

As of patch 8.14, does Zoe need a nerf?

My verdict: No, because there are other assassins that need to be addressed before Zoe at this point. Zoe fails hard at close up fighting, and that's what most meta assassins do now, and she can't snowball easily if you can dodge her Qs.

Good communication will ruin a Zoe's roams but that never happens so i guess Zoe is the queen of Midlane after all


EDIT: Since I didn't address this, I have in mind some changes to Zoe.

Zoe's skill floor isn't actually all that high, and her very top skill cap is pretty artificial, as it comes from knowing how to use unique item combinations and how to use them quickly and efficiently while in the middle of a fight.

As stated earlier, her early game is considered her weakest portion of the game. However, it's not actually that weak, due to her ability to use Q and proc its passive twice in a row. My only suggestion is to nerf the early game damage that comes off of either her passive or her Q damage to limit the amount of damage she can dish out, and leave herself vulnerable.

Another part of the issue is that she becomes ungankable in random intervals. If a bubble pops up, ganking her is gonna be hard, with an additional item/summ spell + movement speed + bubble damages randomly appearing, it makes it frustrating to gank her reliably. However, this was sort of addressed already with her E nerfs, meaning she can't repeatedly use E and Q in lane. Utilizing her mana costs can come in handy. Again, a good Zoe player usually won't do this, so there should probably be someone looking into that.

21 Comments

chipndip18 votes

I think this thread's disingenuous. People that dislike Zoe dislike her from a fundamental standpoint, not because they're actually fair in the discussion. Many people that defend Zoe are way more fair in their argument than people that want CT kicked by a cactus for designing her.

Example: Buying QSS isn't the only way to counter Zoe's E. Crucible, Banshee, Edge of Night, summoner spell Cleanse, and just dodging the dang thing counters her E. Your whole entire team can be suited up to be anti-Zoe if you had the brains and the need to do so. Like, if Lux is landing 50 bindings a minute, would you NOT buy cleanses and spell shields? Is it not the same thing here?

Example: Zoe as a champion doesn't do well into aggressive, tanky champs. Divers like Camille and Lee rush into her space and beat her up, and tanky engage like Malphite and Sejuani can lock her down so their team can clean up while she can't reposition or cc more than one person at a time. Do people really care to not pick Rengar top in solo queue? No, but why blame Zoe's design for solo queue's stupidity?

Example: Zoe currently has a perfectly fine win rate in solo queue. Has the complaining sto- of course it hasn't.

Example: Zoe is a high skill cap champion. Of course people that do WELL on her are going to reap results. However, no one ever thinks of it this way. They complain she has too much burst/mobility/utility even when she has no escapes and one singular delayed hard cc that only hits one freaking person. How do you reason with blatant lies?

Example: Zoe isn't really even a long-range champion. She's actually mid-range when it counts, but her E can travel through walls. Once it lands, she can use R to temporarily extend her reach to move her Q farther, but it's not like she's an artillery mage like Lux or Ziggs or Vel'Koz. She actually moves closer to land her burst, even if she's going to poof right out in a bit. Somehow, however, people act like she's some artillery mage. She isn't.

Example: People relate her to Nidalee when Nidalee has escapes, has a heal, and doesn't need to commit to her spears as much as Zoe needs to commit to her Paddle Stars. Also, if you get hit by a Nidalee spear, you can't just Crucible/QSS the spear, but you CAN cleanse Zoe's bubble. Zoe has way more counter-play put into her kit than Nidalee does, but people still relate her to Nidalee because of the "range = damage" mechanic on her Q. Is that a fair argument? No, it isn't.

hhaavviikk1 votes

{quoted}

I think this thread's disingenuous. People that dislike Zoe dislike her from a fundamental standpoint, not because they're actually fair in the discussion. Many people that defend Zoe are way more fair in their argument than people that want CT kicked by a cactus for designing her.

Example: Buying QSS isn't the only way to counter Zoe's E. Crucible, Banshee, Edge of Night, summoner spell Cleanse, and just dodging the dang thing counters her E. Your whole entire team can be suited up to be anti-Zoe if you had the brains and the need to do so. Like, if Lux is landing 50 bindings a minute, would you NOT buy cleanses and spell shields? Is it not the same thing here?

Example: Zoe as a champion doesn't do well into aggressive, tanky champs. Divers like Camille and Lee rush into her space and beat her up, and tanky engage like Malphite and Sejuani can lock her down so their team can clean up while she can't reposition or cc more than one person at a time. Do people really care to not pick Rengar top in solo queue? No, but why blame Zoe's design for solo queue's stupidity?

Example: Zoe currently has a perfectly fine win rate in solo queue. Has the complaining sto- of course it hasn't.

Example: Zoe is a high skill cap champion. Of course people that do WELL on her are going to reap results. However, no one ever thinks of it this way. They complain she has too much burst/mobility/utility even when she has no escapes and one singular delayed hard cc that only hits one freaking person. How do you reason with blatant lies?

Example: Zoe isn't really even a long-range champion. She's actually mid-range when it counts, but her E can travel through walls. Once it lands, she can use R to temporarily extend her reach to move her Q farther, but it's not like she's an artillery mage like Lux or Ziggs or Vel'Koz. She actually moves closer to land her burst, even if she's going to poof right out in a bit. Somehow, however, people act like she's some artillery mage. She isn't.

Example: People relate her to Nidalee when Nidalee has escapes, has a heal, and doesn't need to commit to her spears as much as Zoe needs to commit to her Paddle Stars. Also, if you get hit by a Nidalee spear, you can't just Crucible/QSS the spear, but you CAN cleanse Zoe's bubble. Zoe has way more counter-play put into her kit than Nidalee does, but people still relate her to Nidalee because of the "range = damage" mechanic on her Q. Is that a fair argument? No, it isn't.

escape and heal for nidalee never mattered, old nidalee back with oneshotGG(or whatever exactly his name was) just sat back and chucked spears till she ran out of mana or till the enemy had to go back, no running away involved, no healing involved, just chucking spears till the enemy died and back then nidalee her spears would 2 shot you, or if fed 1 shot you making cleanse/heals irrelevant, which is exactly hoe zoe now plays

chipndip15 votes

It clearly matters. The point of it is that Nidalee can just throw spears and pray one hits you, and if they don't and you try to close in, she's gone in a heartbeat. Zoe is designed to have to commit to hitting targets in order to deal damage. You're not allowed to have strengths such as "travel distance = more damage" if you also have strengths like "I got poked back so I'ma heal this now/I'm being charged at so I'm hopping over walls now". If you have proper weaknesses, the strengths have a better chance of being balanced out. If you just IGNORE these details for no reason, then nothing will really seem "well designed" based on fancy.

hhaavviikk1 votes

{quoted}

It clearly matters. The point of it is that Nidalee can just throw spears and pray one hits you, and if they don't and you try to close in, she's gone in a heartbeat. Zoe is designed to have to commit to hitting targets in order to deal damage. You're not allowed to have strengths such as "travel distance = more damage" if you also have strengths like "I got poked back so I'ma heal this now/I'm being charged at so I'm hopping over walls now". If you have proper weaknesses, the strengths have a better chance of being balanced out. If you just IGNORE these details for no reason, then nothing will really seem "well designed" based on fancy.

point is what made nidalee obnoxious and infuriating to play against is her spamming spears to 1 or 2 shot you, the healing was a bonus, and the escape rarely mattered, same deal with zoe, spamming Q/E to 1/2 shot you and sure she may not have a heal but with that much range, just like nidalee, you'd rarely needed to heal anyways.

if riot hated nidalee sitting far back and spamming Q to deal a ridiculous amount of damage, and they hated it so much they repeatedly nerfed nidalee for it why did they then design a champion based around sitting far back and spamming Q/E to deal a ridiculous amount of damage?

I'm not talking about balance here, I'm talking about pure frustration of having to play vs a certain champion, and frustration is the same between nidalee and zoe

chipndip12 votes

You're not listening to me explain it to you, so don't ask me. This conversation is done.

hhaavviikk1 votes

{quoted}

You're not listening to me explain it to you, so don't ask me. This conversation is done.

ok byebye, refuse to acknowledge the facts all you want

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

You're not listening to me explain it to you, so don't ask me. This conversation is done.

"The healing was a bonus, and the escape rarely mattered"

If only he had the brains to figure out why Nidalee was picked over xerath or ziggs in those days.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I think this thread's disingenuous. People that dislike Zoe dislike her from a fundamental standpoint, not because they're actually fair in the discussion. Many people that defend Zoe are way more fair in their argument than people that want CT kicked by a cactus for designing her.

Example: Buying QSS isn't the only way to counter Zoe's E. Crucible, Banshee, Edge of Night, summoner spell Cleanse, and just dodging the dang thing counters her E. Your whole entire team can be suited up to be anti-Zoe if you had the brains and the need to do so. Like, if Lux is landing 50 bindings a minute, would you NOT buy cleanses and spell shields? Is it not the same thing here?

Example: Zoe as a champion doesn't do well into aggressive, tanky champs. Divers like Camille and Lee rush into her space and beat her up, and tanky engage like Malphite and Sejuani can lock her down so their team can clean up while she can't reposition or cc more than one person at a time. Do people really care to not pick Rengar top in solo queue? No, but why blame Zoe's design for solo queue's stupidity?

Example: Zoe currently has a perfectly fine win rate in solo queue. Has the complaining sto- of course it hasn't.

Example: Zoe is a high skill cap champion. Of course people that do WELL on her are going to reap results. However, no one ever thinks of it this way. They complain she has too much burst/mobility/utility even when she has no escapes and one singular delayed hard cc that only hits one freaking person. How do you reason with blatant lies?

Example: Zoe isn't really even a long-range champion. She's actually mid-range when it counts, but her E can travel through walls. Once it lands, she can use R to temporarily extend her reach to move her Q farther, but it's not like she's an artillery mage like Lux or Ziggs or Vel'Koz. She actually moves closer to land her burst, even if she's going to poof right out in a bit. Somehow, however, people act like she's some artillery mage. She isn't.

Example: People relate her to Nidalee when Nidalee has escapes, has a heal, and doesn't need to commit to her spears as much as Zoe needs to commit to her Paddle Stars. Also, if you get hit by a Nidalee spear, you can't just Crucible/QSS the spear, but you CAN cleanse Zoe's bubble. Zoe has way more counter-play put into her kit than Nidalee does, but people still relate her to Nidalee because of the "range = damage" mechanic on her Q. Is that a fair argument? No, it isn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01ZNEvcaGRY

Well said.

Crimson Zeppelin5 votes

Another side of the argument is, that Zoe is really weak against tank engage comps. And soloque...everybody wants to be a carry right? She cannot reposition efficiently since her R returns her where she is, and enemies that flash ON her will leave their bubbles behind. This is also compounded by the fact that her Q does get blocked by the slightest of inconveniences.

But honestly, "high skill cap." She is nowhere near Syndra's level of high-mechanical. And I guess that represents her 49% winrate. She is actually fairly simple if you get the ropes.

Flashes3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yUAsQobN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-05T17:18:22.085+0000)

Another side of the argument is, that Zoe is really weak against tank engage comps. And soloque...everybody wants to be a carry right? She cannot reposition efficiently since her R returns her where she is, and enemies that flash ON her will leave their bubbles behind. This is also compounded by the fact that her Q does get blocked by the slightest of inconveniences.

But honestly, "high skill cap." She is nowhere near Syndra's level of high-mechanical. And I guess that represents her 49% winrate. She is actually fairly simple if you get the ropes.

Her high skill cap is artificial, and runs on the basis of knowing unique item combinations and how to use them at the drop of a hat through her W.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Her high skill cap is artificial, and runs on the basis of knowing unique item combinations and how to use them at the drop of a hat through her W.

What is "artificial" about it beyond you claiming it to be? Is skill not skill?

Flashes1 votes

{quoted}

What is "artificial" about it beyond you claiming it to be? Is skill not skill?

The skill that it comes from is not limited to learning how to play Zoe herself, but rather comes from itemizations that can be available in other champions as well. Therefore, most of her skill cap comes from having to know the itemization of every other champion.

chipndip11 votes

That doesn't even make sense as a claim. EVERY champ is man made in this game...

Regardless, Zoe's skill cap comes from how easy it is to screw yourself over by ulting in the wrong spot, your inability to throw cc spells over targets, and how telegraphed your whole kit is unless you engage from the other side of a wall. W is a small part of why Zoe's difficult to play.

BrokenRayquaza5 votes

Holy moly

Thank you so much for doing this

We need more level minded people like you who look at both sides

Void Kaiju5 votes

My biggest issue is that her Q aoe is larger than it should be. She has a very safe fallback strategy of just clearing wave and fishing for Q to bully you out of lane if you actually end up getting a lead that you hope to leverage against her. She clears wave from very far away, at a very low mana cost, and scales into a oneshotter regardless of whether or not you "beat" her early. Hiding behind minions and weaving between them should be a safer defense. My personal recommendation (do not murder me pls.) is to put an AoE on her W and passive autos and not on her Q. Remove some of the safety and easy harass she has and trade it for something that requires her to at least take somewhat of a risk. Let people actually push her out of lane if she's only using her Q to try and chunk you out of lane.

Her W also needs a cooldown between summoner spell uses. I HATE catching her out and getting ignite exhausted whilst she pops barrier. And only one of those is a summoner spell she actually brought with her. Idk where power could be shifted to accommodate this but it should be done. Having one extra summoner spell is more than enough to be game-shifting. Doesn't need to be a long cooldown, maybe 10 seconds-15 seconds.

Lastly may just be a me problem but: I have had a really hard time seeing Sleepy Trouble Bubble since release. It's partially transparent and makes it hard for me to gauge the width of the projectile in the time it takes it to hit or miss me.

I love that she has a high skill ceiling. But her skill floor NEEDS to be raised. I should not be playing instakill dodgeball while she sits back and laughs as she misses Q after Q but doesnt run out of mana. I only get tilted against her when I by all means have been juking and juking her combos but her low cooldowns, low mana costs, and decent AoE just get me killed eventually with very few windows to try and fight back if the Zoe player is actually competent.

420 grams2 votes

Who said zoes early game is weak? She's a ranged champion, which is inherently a very strong early game trait by itself. She has strong poke without many mana problems. And if you all in her early with ignite and fail, she now has your ignite to hit you with as well as her own, which is A LOT of true damage early game. That's not including her passive procs she gets or he w passive procs she's getting also. In fact, she could 100-0 from w alone early game, which isn't even her main ability.

Flashes4 votes

[{quoted}](name=420 grams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yUAsQobN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-05T19:53:28.360+0000)

Who said zoes early game is weak? She's a ranged champion, which is inherently a very strong early game trait by itself. She has strong poke without many mana problems. And if you all in her early with ignite and fail, she now has your ignite to hit you with as well as her own, which is A LOT of true damage early game. That's not including her passive procs she gets or he w passive procs she's getting also. In fact, she could 100-0 from w alone early game, which isn't even her main ability.

you c l e a r l y didn't read what I said. She's weaker early game than she is late game, but due to the ability to land her Q and 2 AAs, her early game "weakness" can't be easily exploited.

chipndip11 votes

Can't you just dodge the Q? Q isn't targeted...

Magi Mayvin2 votes

Zoe hard to play nice joke lmfao. Literally every single mage in this entire game requires at least as much skill as she does.The only problem i have with her is her bubble still staying on the ground if she misses it, its one of the most bullshit things in the game and also items should be removed from her w.

nelogis2 votes

Let's take a break from the one sided, and inane, arguments surrounding Zoe that tend to resonate in this echo chamber called the League of Legends Boards. To get a few things straight, let's go over some gameplay general concepts with Zoe.

Well this is going to be fun

Zoe's early game is largely considered weaker than her mid-late game, because of the amount of long range burst she has.

Zoe's early game cmpared to other early game weak champs is VERY strong. Thanks to her ability to mindlessly push the wave in and not needing to interact with her opponent makes her a good early game champion (Kind of like Taliyah/Ryze/Azir)

Zoe's usage of her W means that she, indeed, has a very high skill cap to play at her FULLEST potential.

W? You see heal on ground, you pick up heal, you press W to heal You see ignite on ground, you pick up ignite, you press W to ignite

What skillcap m8

Let's address the issues most people playing against Zoe have

  1. Yup

  2. Wouldn't be a problem if she had Counterplay (or even had to land abilities to get the damage off, right now she can just use W and autos and still kill you while missing everything)

Xerath would also rape you if he landed a stun, but other than Zoe, he can't do that from fog of war and if he misses his abilities he actually deals no damage at all.

  1. Ayeap!

To address both 1 and 2, if compared to other artillery mages and assassins, Zoe actually does both jobs at once. She can provide long range damage, and she can also provide a quick assassination on the enemy ADC. Here's where things actually become a little less one sided. While Zoe can do both tasks effectively, she can't do either of them to a high level. It is this balance of Assassin and Mage that sets her apart, and makes her perceived as "Overloaded Infuriating".

No not really, if anything she does both at like 0.75 ratio, so both together she is at like 1.5 champion kits.

aka, overloaded.

Let's look at their damage.

You compare her to Xerath but fail to see that Xerath's damage is sprayed out to 4 different spells while Zoe has 2 main damage spells. That alone means Zoe has to land less stuff to do the same damage than Xerath while he lands everything.

You also mention how she is bad against heavy engage while she has a sleep that lasts for like 2 seconds? and is unmissable melee range. Now let's go back to Xerath, the guy with the 0.5 second stun when landed point blank.

Xerath has a clear counter that is seen in the mechanics of his kit, Zoe does not.

For one, she has to actually land her E. Second, she has to actually land her Q. Finally, if she doesn't weave her AAs into the damage, she misses out on what usually is the deciding factor between a kill and 300 health.

Poor thing actually has to land abilities and auto attack to kill stuff......

First, she actually doesn't have to land her E to hit Q or to do damage at all (remember old Nidalee) Second she actually doesn't have to land anything to do enough damage for a trade Third, this argument is BS since it applies to every champion in the entire game. No champ does stuff just by existing.

Finally, arguing that her W provides too much utility is both true, and not true. Zoe can't pick and choose what she gets

Then it is an unreliable RNG shit ability that needs to be removed from the game, good analysis by you.

both have to think about where they're going to use their summoners. "Playing against a specific champion shouldn't mean I should adjust my playing style."

That isn't altering a playstyle.

First, Zoe doesn't have to thinka bout a darn thing when to use summs, she uses it when she wants to. Second, it doesn't alter the playstyle of the oppoent it literally makes their flash beyond useless when Zoe is around, you try to flash away? too bad she picks it up, flashes after you and gets even more damage + mobility. The same thing happens when you flash at her.

That isn't altering a playstyle, it's called having low counterplay.

It's like giving Kassadin his silence back and telling everyone to auto attack him instead now..... "altering playstyle"

Zoe has a massive skill cap, so she's justified in having so much power. It just means they're good.

Zoe's early game is weak, so that more than compensates for everything else. Just take advantage of that.

Zoe's W means that she needs actual thinking to pull off her high-octane playstyle.

Ryze is at 44% winrate thanks to his high skillcap, gut Zoe to that level and then I can accept her needing skill to actually play. Before that, no, she is maybe at the top 40% of skillcap champs.

Zoe can push the wave with 3 Q's, she isn't weak early at all. Go play Nasus mid lane then you understand what a weak early means.

Explained above why her W needs little to no thinking at all to use. You see spell, you pick it up, you use it. Straight forward.

Zoe indeed has a massive skill cap. It's very hard to land a Smaller-Than-Ezreal's-Q sized skillshot, especially when you aim it back and forward. To those of you complaining that you get all the time: Get. Good. Dodging skillshots is not hard to do. However, getting hit with an E means that it becomes harder to actually deal with Zoe's Q, because you can't dodge it when you're sleeping. The argument of "Just get Mercurial" is valid, but is a poor argument. Building an entire item just to counter one champion that is usually in a different lane isn't very healthy. However, most of the skill cap actually comes from how early game is played, and how Zoe can react to Ws that appear, not from the difficulty in landing her E.

It's not smaller than Ez Q and Zoe Q is AOE so.... And here is the good'ol "Git guud LOUL EGGS DII" argument. I'm not going to go into that since that is literally the most used argumet on how to fight Zoe and it's beyond bullshit. By that logic nothing ever has to be nerfed, the only problem is that you are just bad right? You are just bad getting silenced and insta killed by Talon, we should have never changed his kit I guess.

And I guess the pro players also have to GIT GUD right? I guess the challenger players that complain about her also have to GIT GUD?

No the QSS argument is fine. You also buy it for Fiddle / Rammus / Malzh / TF

It's just that these champs don't 100 - 0 you on their own. Zoe does it by herself.

2

Explained above why her early isn't weak and the ability to delete 1/3 of a champions health with 1 ability makes you an early game lane bully actually.

3

Yes it is called trash design

Nobody cherry picks argument, tell me a single pro-Zoe argument and I can instantly tell you a counter argument about that reflecting in other champions.

Quick question. Do you know old Nidalee? Do you know why that playstyle got removed completely? If no then look up a video If yes then tell me what's so different about Zoe. What gives her the right to exist but not old Nidalee?

AP Reksai, Legolas Varus, both been nerfed and removed for the exact same reason.

By old Riot philosophy, she shouldn't even exist to begin with.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

No. No. No.

This champ is garbage design and horrendous to play with.

Budging on that perspective enables Riot to create even more champs that are so obviously unhealthy it's no wonder people think they don't play their own game.

No. There is zero justification that champ has been released.

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