"You're just mad because botlane has diversity now. Shut up, ADC mains." Ft. Caitlyn

Flashes··38 votes·13,877 views

I am not saying that ADCs are supposed to one-shot minion waves and burst down squishies faster than an assassin. Let's get that out of the way.

I would like to point out an issue, and that is that ADCs cannot reach lategame, and as a result, must deal very little damage. This opens up problems in a slightly humorous, but also very infuriating manner.

Let's take a look at where I got my information, then let's go through the process of what a "bot lane carry" is.

http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

Traditional ADCs and APCs are meant to be sustained damage-dealers that are capable of "carrying" a team through battle. In other words, they are like a fragile glass cannon. Certainly, some have defences, but typically, they have very few, like assassins. What differentiates the two is the amount of damage they do in a given period of time. Assassins do a lot in a little, ADCs or APCs do a lot MORE in a lot. Both can be "carries", and for this argument, I will only be looking at Traditional ADCs/APCs, or at least champions that can fulfill that role even though they are not supposed to.

Keeping this in mind, let's look at "sustained damage dealers" in the same category as Caitlyn, and omit troll arguments like Quinn. Just because she's a marksman doesn't mean she isn't an assassin.

Simply because a champion "deals sustained damage" and is "better than my main" does not automatically make me angry. In fact, I like how bot lane is being diversified outside of 16 rotating champions over and over. However, there are some thorns in my side.

Let's look at champions that are meant for a role other than "sustained damage dealers", but are somehow still able to fulfill that role, while doing it better than Caitlyn, who is meant for that role, IN ADDITION to bringing something else to the table.

Let's begin by looking at Caitlyn herself.

Caitlyn has a winrate of 44.64% and a play rate of 2.64%. Caitlyn, a supposed "bot lane carry", sits below:

Vladmir (everyone knows this, and I'm not very mad about it. His winrate is 48% rn.) Morgana, who is a support geared champion. Irelia. Do not even try to tell me Irelia is similar to Yasuo, because she is not. She is a battle disruptor who can deal damage, and not a carry. She lives and breaths "Versatility" and not "Damage". Or at least she's supposed to. Malzahar, but I guess he is sort of in his own category now. He's literally a wave clear machine + ult button. Kennen is a burst champion, but also deals sustained damage. Lux, who, ESPECIALLY with the recent patches, is definitely supposed to be either support oriented, or full on burst. However, with low cooldowns, she is able to become a sustained damage dealer WHILE bursting down backlines. Ryze, who is a waveclear + burst damage + ult mage, yet is still able to deal sustained damage through his low cooldowns.

Caitlyn's winrate is below all of these champions. In fact, out of all of the "significant" picks in bot lane, she sits at the absolute bottom. Yes, below Varus.

First of all, do not bring up the "diversity" argument. I am talking about champions that straight up outclass Caitlyn at what she does, IN ADDITION to doing other things better than her. This is not just "buff caitlyn plz i wanna get a 90% winrate on my main" rant, this is a "Look! That champion deals more damage than your main AND gives a lot more CC/ Has way more mobility / Survives way better/ etc./ all of the above" rant.

"Butbut wait! You forgot about playrate. Get destroyed, get out, your argument is invalid."

Let's look at Caitlyn's playrate: 2.64%.

I'll remove champions with a playrate below 1%, because below that, it's usually more of a counterpick scenario. I think.

When done, these four champions remain. I will think of these as the "Problamatic Four", until someone can explain to me, with sound reasoning, why their presence in bot lane is healthy.

Vladmir: 7%. SEVEN. PERCENT. Morgana: 2.46%. Irelia: 2.51% Ryze: 1.67% (Out of all the champions, this would probably be the easiest to sway my mind on.)

As you can see, the problem still exists. Why is Morgana sitting above Caitlyn in play rate, and in win rate, when she is supposed to be a support? Why is Irelia, a battle disruptor, sitting above Caitlyn? Why is Ryze, geared towards solo play, sitting above Caitlyn, who lives and breaths "be my slave and give me kills" "Be my teammate and help me set up my traps?" WHY IS VLADIMIR, EVEN AFTER THE NERFS, STILL BETTER THAN CAITLYN, AND PLAYED A HELL OF A LOT MORE?

If you account for the champions below 1%, there is not a single one that falls below 0.5%, although that may be OP.GG's algorithim for considering which champions can be put as a lane champion. This in itself

Additional notes: While Swain technically fits the definition of "sustained damage dealer", he definitely should be addressed, sitting at a 53% winrate with an 8% play rate, and was intended as a "duelist" of sorts, meant to be played top and mid lane. However, I am fine with him being played bot-lane, just not at the rate he's being played at now.

Heimerdinger fits the definition of "sustained damage dealer" through his Q, but also doesn't, through his W, E, and situational usage of his Ult. He's meant to be a little more versatile than a typical "marksman ADC", but also usually requires more setup. However, being honest, his W usually does about two auto-attacks worth of damage, so he should be fine where he is.

Do not tell me that Jhin, Miss Fortune, and Quinn are "Sustained damage dealers." Jhin blows up squishies, just like Miss Fortune, and really only bring sustained damage through their Ults. Do not tell me Quinn is sustained damage. In fact, if you think that is true, read her kit.

Yasuo was meant to be a sustained damage dealer, and is usually played as such. It's just, his sustained damage is very big. That's all.

While Brand is certainly bursty, he's also capable of turning teamfights around with his passive. In this sense, I feel like he deals sustained damage to both the front and back line, but he was designed to do so, and so I'm not mad at him being played bot, but rather his power when played bot.

In conclusion:

Caitlyn's damage, and most other "typical" ADC's damage, have been lowered to the point where other types of champions that were initially meant for other roles are now able to fulfill the role of a sustained damage dealer carry better than champions that are supposed to be sustained damage dealers, while also being able to do other things simultaneously. This is an issue, because it creates gaps of several champions shoved out of the meta simply because there are better options in doing a specific task while also able to do more than that task.

To sum up the problem right now, I have an analogy.

If you could buy one super tasty sandwich for a dollar or two, slightly worse, but still tasty, sandwiches for a dollar, which one would you buy? It would depend on your aim, right? If you want to fill your hunger, and be practical, you would buy two sandwiches. They still taste fine, and you're able to fill your hunger up. Much like that, if you want to win by playing a sustained damage carry, play someone who can deal damage AND something else, like Morgana. Deal Damage, CC, and sacrifice none of the range! Otherwise, if you're looking for taste, you would pay for the sandwich that was tasty, no matter how much more expensive it is. If you love Caitlyn's kit, playing Caitlyn into a losing game is fine, because the goal isn't to win, it is to play Caitlyn. However, the way sandwiches should be organized in any given establishment, is that most sandwiches are near the same price range. They don't have to be exactly the same, because variance is healthy for any restaurant, but they cannot be wildly out of proportion. In this case, it is the same for any given MOBA. League is like a restaurant, but with really shitty sandwiches on the menu, really good sandwiches on the menu, and salads that shouldn't be sandwiches but are instead eaten like sandwiches. Burgers can be eaten as sandwiches. Salads are too far. Swain works as a sustained damage dealer in a stretch. Morgana? That's not her goal AT ALL.

So please:

Address Caitlyn.

Also Address Varus and Xayah because both of them are STRUGGLING!

TL;DR: Why is Caitlyn so neglected? For example: she sits below FREAKING MORGANA in BASICALLY EVERYTHING, when played as the bot lane CARRY. There's an analogy right above that you should read.

125 Comments

StonePlatypus42 votes

Sorry, but ADC's are in a good spot. Their late game is BETTER now through the adjust you got.

They took away your ridiculous front loaded power, and put it in the back where it belongs.

Cait is fine, you have 5 traps to protect yourself. Then when you get a few items you can be that late game carry power house that has no counter play.

Stop being salty that botlane is diverse.

You just had an entire season dedicated to everyone playing around you with ardent censor.

Don't be so selfish.

Nevrankroaton6 votes

I wonder if people would get how ridiculous this sounded if we told Bruiser or Mage that "You will deal ton of damages late game!" but for that, you need three item to reach a decent powerspike, said item are expensive and not even a huge buy individually.

You end up buying stormrazor by default or hope that champs like Ashe can go toward BOTRK to be saved from that.

Atmosphere17 votes

"You deal a ton of damage late game, but your powerspike is later, all your items cost more, you have less armor, and games last 27 minutes on average so you never make it to late game! Have fun!!"

RocketRelm13 votes

Maybe, and this is just a thought, the problem isn't with Adcs, and is instead with the "games are literally decided in the first 10 minutes" trend we've got going.

Averia3 votes

We had metas back in season 2 and 3 and such that lasted 30 minutes tops and adcs were still strong, weaker than season 7 but strong.

It's not a matter of time, it's a matter of riot enforcing items to be scalers of each other in bot lane. It used to be that you had 1-2 big spikes as an adc and then kinda just slow ramped up way to late-game but now our only spike is late-game.

For that we were compensated with insane damage scaling.

And now it's back to season 2-3 damage levels, without the benefit of having a good survivability item like the old Bloodthirster or Botrk to help us survive the early game.

We achieve worse damage values now, with less utility. That's a depressing thought.

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

If every Mage could buy an item that gave them Veigar's passive then maybe you'd have a point but aside from special cases like Veigar, no one had or has the same kind of power that Crit builds can give.

Averia2 votes

Uhhh, rabadons. Except rabadons is a single item scaler equivalent to every scaling item ADC's buy.

Also, archangels. RoA. Ludens is a free secondary ratio as well as Lich Bane that artificially act as exponential scalers of your damage.

You're not thinking straight if you think adc has infinite scaling. Mages actually tend to do much more sustained damage than ADC when they are designed for sustain damage.

Riot literally had to create an item that lowers mage sustained damage similar to critical reduction because sustain damage mages are insanely better at sustained damage than ADC, but also have innate utility.

Cassio W and E healing, with Stunning ultimate.

Pre-rework Azir with long range poke + dps, with a 1v5 anti-engage ultimate, a shield and a dash.

Ryze, all of the above? Been reworked 4 times for the same problem in 8 years?

I can go down the list pretty easily.

Edit: sorry, I forgot to mention guaranteed 40% CDR where in seasons past you used to only get 20 or so without actively trying to get 40%.

Just like attack speed is a scaler for ADC, CDR is a scaler for mages.

Zepherys1372 votes

Ever heard of late game Cassiopeia/Vladimir/Ryze/Kassadin/Azir/Viktor? (yeah, i know, Kassadin isn't exactly a mage, but still)

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

While they can be late game power houses (I'm referring to Azir, Cassiopeia, and Ryze) nothing scales in damage as hard as a crit build does with full items.

Averia11 votes

"ADC's are in a good spot".

Eh. Not really. A few, generally non-traditional adcs are in a good spot.

The current meta in bot lane is no less restrictive than previous metas, it's just a different subset of champions. Riot shouldn't be happy with this situation.

New champions being playable is fine.

However instead of it being 16 ADC's on rotation, now it's like 5-6 ADC's and 10 non-ADC's on rotation.

The situation isn't better, it's just different.

Fízz v26 votes

Its different classes tho, so the situation kinda is better

Averia10 votes

I wouldn't say so. It didn't bring more diversity to the game overall. All of those same champions were still playable elsewhere.

In fact most of them were already generically oppressive in solo lanes. Now they're so oppressive in duo lanes they've negated diversity in the lane.

The game isn't more diverse now even though it might feel that way. It's less. This is hard to word properly for me at 4am so bear with me.

Yes, the 5v5 is more diverse in the sense that you see more different champions on a game to game basis, and that sounds like a great thing. However, you're seeing less individual style than before this meta. Now, everyone is a mage player, or a tank player or a bruiser player.

There is no ADC player, and the ADC's that are even playable are just glorified AD mages in a lot of regards.

In this sense, diversity is less. The ability to play scaling playstyles is non-existent (outside of coordinated play and funneling) and certain fantasies within the game are also only fantasies now.

Certain champions have become unplayable while no new champions have really gained traction. They've just changed position on the map a little bit.

BestPudgeNA4 votes

{quoted}

"ADC's are in a good spot".

Eh. Not really. A few, generally non-traditional adcs are in a good spot.

The current meta in bot lane is no less restrictive than previous metas, it's just a different subset of champions. Riot shouldn't be happy with this situation.

Meanwhile in reality 9 of the top 10 pick rate champs are marksman

Averia1 votes

I'm not one for using OP.GG because their statistics are based on the top 1% in Korea. Their stats are a lot more refined for things like builds and matchups but their overall winrate stats are very bad and not consistent.

Check https://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=ADC&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

There are 4 adcs in the top 12 for winrate. Of those ADC's, one isn't even an ADC although she is a marksman (Quinn), and the 2 others are Draven and MF, also non-traditional. Twitch is the only traditional ADC on the list and he's probably being played funnel composition for boosting strategies.

Your argument is pretty weak overall because you're using playrates, but that furthers the point that those ADC's are weak. They have high pickrate and ~48 or less winrate, that's disgusting and if your champions had those winrates at those playrates you would complain.

BestPudgeNA2 votes

{quoted}

Your argument is pretty weak overall because you're using playrates, but that furthers the point that those ADC's are weak. They have high pickrate and ~48 or less winrate, that's disgusting and if your champions had those winrates at those playrates you would complain.

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=ADC&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

First off using your site 9 of the top 10 pick rates are Marksman the 10th is Yasuo which is a melee crit ADC just not the marksman type.

I use pick rates because pick rates are much more indicative of power level. It's not a "weak" argument it's the non-biased one. If Kayle is such a strong "adc" why does nobody pick her and enjoy the freelo? It's because she not actually that strong of an ADC and it's a few one tricks that make up her entire play rate. There is a reason she isn't being banned or picked. It's because she isn't that good. If Kai'sa, EZ and Lucian are weak why is it they get picked like every game? Why are they such high priority picks in pro play? Hint it's because they're actually really strong.

My favorite champ is Zac which has a 47% WR, i've pretty much had to stop playing him in ranked. I'm also a big fan of Gragas which has been like 43-45% wr rate the whole season and i don't play him literally ever because the champ is just so fucking weak

Quinzley3 votes

Late game? Didn't Riot remove that?

Saianna2 votes

You just had an entire season dedicated to everyone playing around you

More like 3 seasons..

Jinzo Torrance10 votes

I still see 8 ADC out of the top 10 in bot?

If you make brainlet 650 range Cait viable then a lot of melee/mage champs wouldn't be able to be picked bot

Nipsahoy10 votes

The main problem since the Marksmen update is that it takes too long to be a significant threat anymore. Melee champs buy 1 item (typically Duskblade, Tri force or black cleaver) and they are online and can combo you out super easily. Crit marksmen sit there and try to farm for 25-30 minutes to gain relevancy and by that point you've typically lost so much of the map and objectives the games frankly over most of the time. I'd have no issue with crit marksmen power spikes being delayed if it felt like you had a factor in the game most of the time but that's becoming so exceedingly rare now.

It's ridiculous to me that Wukong for example can buy duskblade and Q/Ult me and I die before the knockup ends yet I'd have to auto him probably 10-15 times at that stage of the game to kill him which we all know will never happen. He also has more mobility and defensive options. Or take Nocturne with duskblade. Ults you from 2-3 screens away takes 80% of your hp with the initial burst then you get feared immediately after and finished off. Can't even play your character before you die. I understand some champs are designed to be good at singling targets out and that's fine but when it gets to a level that you can't even do anything no matter what, that's when it's a problem. There should be an option for you to possible outplay it with summoners/abilities even if its a small chance.

AmazoX3 votes

{quoted}

The main problem since the Marksmen update is that it takes too long to be a significant threat anymore. Melee champs buy 1 item (typically Duskblade, Tri force or black cleaver) and they are online and can combo you out super easily. Crit marksmen sit there and try to farm for 25-30 minutes to gain relevancy and by that point you've typically lost so much of the map and objectives the games frankly over most of the time. I'd have no issue with crit marksmen power spikes being delayed if it felt like you had a factor in the game most of the time but that's becoming so exceedingly rare now.

It's ridiculous to me that Wukong for example can buy duskblade and Q/Ult me and I die before the knockup ends yet I'd have to auto him probably 10-15 times at that stage of the game to kill him which we all know will never happen. He also has more mobility and defensive options. Or take Nocturne with duskblade. Ults you from 2-3 screens away takes 80% of your hp with the initial burst then you get feared immediately after and finished off. Can't even play your character before you die. I understand some champs are designed to be good at singling targets out and that's fine but when it gets to a level that you can't even do anything no matter what, that's when it's a problem. There should be an option for you to possible outplay it with summoners/abilities even if its a small chance.

Sorry but you're forgetting that real good Support Items were added after the Assassin Rework and the fact that bruisers, assassins, fall off.

Acheron163 votes

I'm sorry, you're suggesting 2 champions working together can beat 1?

Pretty sure that happens no matter the champion type, be it marksman+support, top+jungle, mid+marksman, etc, doesn't make what the guy said any less valid: one of those diving champions goes after a marksman and he's dead. Their kits (save some rare exceptions) and itemization don't give them options to survive.

BEK Makadur4 votes

The problem before was, that adc´s got too stgrong too early, they are meant to be lategame champs. If the games go back to a longer average, by buffing turrets etc. they will be fine as they will get to the lategame more often.

ChargeItDownMid9 votes

[deleted]

Ahris2 votes

{quoted}

Here is the thing, half of all archetypes should be below 50% winrate. A quarter of the champions in every archetype are going to be significantly below 50%. That is what happens in a balanced game.

The problem for marksmen for so long was that even their worst champions were stronger than other archetype mid tier and sometimes even high tier champions. You shouldn't be able to compare the worst marksmen to a mid or upper tier champion in another archetype and expect them to do well. You don't see bruiser mains complaining nasus is in the trash. You don't see mage mains complaining about syndra. You don't see tank mains complaining about amumu.

Marksmen as an archetype aren't weak compared to other archetypes by any measure. They simply are finally balanced for the first time in a long time and marksmen mains are not use to playing a balanced archetype.

I find adc even more op now. Stormrazor gives them amazing early game/midgame and latrgame they are stronger now than before.

I feel thiz adc nerf/rework is a disguized buff.

Snake Prince7 votes

dont read , adcs are boring . meta bot lane is good , riot needs to fix mid lane .

Ahris5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake Prince,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zY4W8UA,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-07-05T11:38:37.220+0000)

dont read , adcs are boring . meta bot lane is good , riot needs to fix mid lane .

Ya midlane has been destroyed for so long and nobody says anything lol

Bisaknosp5 votes

love your name

Succubús GF5 votes

Cait is neglected because she gets cried about SO HARD when she's meta it's ridiculous lmfao

Akali is SO HOT5 votes

ADCs got an incredibly significant buff late game after the changes. They were always meant to be a class that was weak early game, but super powerful late game. They aren't supposed to be champions that kill squishies in less than a second and destroy tanks after one or two items. After many, many years Riot has finally fixed this and made ADCs more late game oriented and made their early games weaker.

You are comparing champions that you shouldn't even be comparing to begin with. Cait is an ADC that has incredibly high burst with her passive and good sustained damage late game and a ton of control with her traps with good safety from her long range and traps. Vlad is a mage that has a pretty good amount of burst/sustained damage with a lot of built in healing. These champions are almost nothing alike. Then you go on to compare Cait to champions like Morg and Ryze which is just completely absurd.

ADCs have been 100% mandatory since almost the beginning of this game's existence and for 3 MEASLY PATCHES they are not 100% mandatory and all of you entitled ADC mains have lost your shit because sometimes non ADCs can go bot lane and beat you. God forbid a class that is supposed to be weak early game and strong late game is actually like that now after seasons and seasons of being the dominate role with a support to help them out all game long.

That's not even mentioning that ADCs are still picked in the majority of games. These complaints are just ridiculous.

Averia2 votes

What late-game buff are you referring to? Serious question. We lost base stats, our items cost more which means late-game is even later, and our items are actually just flat out worse at 6 items now.

All we received was nerfs to item synergies and lower damage overall. If you think IE giving 15% true damage is equivalent to 250% crit damage you're just blinding yourself.

  • New IE does less damage to targets with < ~125 armor, seriously, do the math.
  • New IE does more damage to targets with >~125, until you buy a penetration item. Then New IE is always worse. Again, do the math.
  • New IE does not interact with armor penetration, at all. You'd think this is a great thing because it opens your build up to something like Bloodthirster but,
  • New IE also doesn't work with Lifesteal either, LOL.
  • New IE doesn't interact with Neutral objectives, making you deal less damage over the course of the game, overall
  • New IE's only benefit is guaranteed 100% Critical Chance at 2 Zeal items. This is a 20% difference, and could easily be made up by the ADC player before.

Nothing, nothing but nerfs. Not just to early game, but to late-game and all we got in return was our crit finally being "guaranteed". Turns out, that value is lost easily on the fact that we can't deal bonus damage to neutral objectives alone.

Everyone and their fucking mothers keep saying "ADC's got late-game buffs". Fuck no we didn't. We got late-game nerfs. And early-game nerfs, and scaling nerfs. We didn't receive a single buff, outside of Riot's shitty consolation buffs they're currently pushing to a select few ADC's that are currently gutter-tier garbage.

As I've mentioned elsewhere as well: ADC's have a high pickrate because they are a comfort pick, but it's like having your comfort pick be Teemo right now (except Teemo is probably honestly better right now). ADC players will continue to pick ADC's because they don't know how to play fuck all else because Riot introduced Role Queue into the game. Old guard ADC's have been pretty adamant about picking other champions, but newer players who have gotten used to learning 4-5 champions and not needing anything else are struggling massively.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

True damage from IE lets ADCs do 12% increased damage against 100 armor targets, 26% increased damage against 200 armor champions, and 40% increased damage against 300 armor targets.

I've already done the math for you. For a single auto the damage breaks even at around 120 armor, but across multiple autos you do significantly more damage. That's not even factoring in that LW was reverted to total armor as well.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/wiymXpbJ-new-math-with-ie-passive-at-15-true-damage

If you honestly think ADCs late game got worse, then you are playing a completely different game than the rest of us.

Averia2 votes

See, that's the problem you're running into. You're using the same build, assuming same item costs and saying "this is better now". No. It takes longer to get more damage, that should be a buff to the late-game suredly, but it's a mid-game nerf. Which would be fine if you consider the late-game to be better, but it's not. With IE being a direct non-scaler with penetration and lifesteal, it's 6 item efficiency is god awful.

There is nothing you can buy as an ADC that has a scaling with Infinity Edge except flat AD, which is a direct nerf to it's late-game power. And the power benefit in the mid-game is completely lost in the fact that the build is:

  1. Worse, because it's scaling is just jerky and wonky because you can't get the increased crit chance to smooth your build out.
  2. More expensive, which directly lowers the efficiency you're looking at in a 3 item build. You get more damage, for more money, that only evens out the value of the item, but only against targets with >100 armor.

You're seeing a "late-game buff" looking at 3 items against tank targets, but ADC's were fine with buying 2 items + LW if necessary, or 3 items and then into a LW>LDR item.

You're looking at the stats in a context that benefits your argument, not a context that puts the actual numbers in the proper light to be considered. This is like looking at a 55% winrate on Aurelion Sol, calling him broken but not considering his .05% pickrate or whatever it is.

You're looking at a 3 item build or so, where every single item got more expensive, but does a little more damage, in a few use scenarios, that aren't useful to ADC players unless your team fucking trolls and picks 4 AD champions.

You aren't considering actual late-game scenarios where the scaling coefficients of both Penetration and Lifesteal out-weigh the value of a little bit of true damage against 300 armor targets which is already not ideal, even for a true damage based carry. Hence why teams pick double threat comps with AP and AD.

Edit: Also, there is no situation where you can consider the 10% difference in critical strike chance, like you seem to be doing. a 10% increase would not give you a reasonable increase in damage over 5 auto attacks because the sample size is too small to assume you will crit 60% of the time instead of 50% (or 3 auto's instead of 2.5), but even if it did, because the items you are considering are more expensive, the old IE build would still be equivalent if you considered gold costs in your calculations. But you didn't. You didn't even disclaimer that you were considering the 10% chance to equate to a whole auto attack worth of extra crits in 5 auto's.

You're saying I crit 1 more time with 10% more crit chance in 5 auto's, but that's not a reasonable assumption to make.

Jerry SeinfeId4 votes

Ryze, who is a waveclear + burst damage + ult mage, yet is still able to deal sustained damage through his low cooldowns.

as much as i dislike him, he's supposed to be a battemage, and thus should have sustained dmg.

Also Address Varus and Xayah because both of them are STRUGGLING!

Yeah, sure bring back varus (not onhit tho) but xayah can rot in hell. I's been like what? 3 months since she was one of the 2 best adc in the game? remember, soon after cait got gutted for being the best adc in the game? maybe if her ult wasn't so goddamn infuriating.

Acheron161 votes

Yeah, Ryze is supposed to have sustained damage.

Then why does he have a lot of burst damage as well? Why does Q+E+W+Q+disengage leave you with 40% HP if you're a squishy?

I fact, why does he have everything in his kit? Ehy does he have so much range? Why does he have reliable CC? Why does he have tankyness? Why does he have a burst of speed? Why does he have the legit option of going tanky while still dealing good damage?

For a guy meant to deal sustained damage he sure has a lot of stuff in his kit, doesn't he?

Jerry SeinfeId3 votes

Uhm.... When did I say I think he's a well designed champion?

Fact is he's a battlemage, a beefy mid ranged mage that does sustained damage.

TeCoolMage2 votes

Maybe in bot lane he's considered burst, but by mid lane standards he's by far a sustained damage mage. A majority of champions (Lux, Xerath, Ziggs, assassins, Anivia, Orianna and more) will back off in the QE and have already dealt more damage (or they get rooted and lose the trade)

Seer of Mind4 votes

Cait is really good late game (I just had a 55min game and she was really strong.) Its just that in this current meta the game doesn't last long enough for adc's to reach their full potential if they don't snowball in lane. Plus I don't really think she should be buffed at all right now, with her range she can deal serious damage to bruisers before they close the gap on her, even then she can place a trap, auto, E, auto again when you're coming at her. Add that damage to her with full build and if the headshot proc goes off, and thats a good 2/3 of someones health bar, that is, if they didn't stack a bunch of armor.

Spârky3 votes

Agreed. But as an adc main I think most people's frustration including myself. Is that our late game is so damn good now if you get there. BUT they made adc's early game dog shit during a meta where games were not already going late. So now we got this class that is geared toward late game but most games don't last that long. Honestly I don't want riot to touch adc's. If they buff the late game adc's and the meta ever slows down we are going to have so many strong adc's. I want them to keep looking at snowballing then these different picks in the bot lane will end up going away in favor of the crit adc's again.

Blynx2 votes

{quoted}

Agreed. But as an adc main I think most people's frustration including myself. Is that our late game is so damn good now if you get there. BUT they made adc's early game dog shit during a meta where games were not already going late. So now we got this class that is geared toward late game but most games don't last that long. Honestly I don't want riot to touch adc's. If they buff the late game adc's and the meta ever slows down we are going to have so many strong adc's. I want them to keep looking at snowballing then these different picks in the bot lane will end up going away in favor of the crit adc's again.

YES.

Stop the fucking snowball!

remove assassins2 votes

Crit ADCs are stronger late game now, at least in my experience. I just think they have problems getting to late game

Daddy Ants2 votes

[{quoted}](name=revert crit,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zY4W8UA,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2018-07-05T15:53:57.993+0000)

Crit ADCs are stronger late game now, at least in my experience. I just think they have problems getting to late game

The main way to make Hypercarries useful is to slow down the game but Riot seems to be against that.

The Dreamwalker2 votes

I love the new bot lane because I have more options. If my entire team does AD, then I play something fun like Lux bottom. I have tried it a couple of times now, and I have found it quite pleasing. I like it even more when my support has high crowd control. It makes the whole burst combo easier to get off. However, I do still like that you can be "traditional" and play marksmen, however, you will not just pop off and annihilate the enemy team after 1-2 items. I don't know. It just seems to make bottom lane more fun! Also, I do believe Riot did say that they were planning on finding a way to open up bottom lane to more champions. I believe they have done that now.

Flashes2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Dreamwalker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zY4W8UA,comment-id=0021,timestamp=2018-07-05T17:31:46.270+0000)

I love the new bot lane because I have more options. If my entire team does AD, then I play something fun like Lux bottom. I have tried it a couple of times now, and I have found it quite pleasing. I like it even more when my support has high crowd control. It makes the whole burst combo easier to get off. However, I do still like that you can be "traditional" and play marksmen, however, you will not just pop off and annihilate the enemy team after 1-2 items. I don't know. It just seems to make bottom lane more fun! Also, I do believe Riot did say that they were planning on finding a way to open up bottom lane to more champions. I believe they have done that now.

I'm not saying it's bad that diversity appears, I'm saying that it's bad when there are other champions (like lux) that can both deal the same damage as Caitlyn AND give cc/other benefits.

KoKoboto2 votes

Since when is Morgana supposed to be a support. When I play Morgana I play her mid

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

shes always been a support because of the shield and the fact her root is the longest lasting root in game and has a retarded hit box

Automated Riven2 votes

No. She was a mage until late season two early season three when people figured out she countered blitz/Leona.

Blu 12 votes

I would rather they just slow games down a bit instead of buffing crit marksmen, If you make late-game scaling champs/builds strong at 15-20 mins they will be absolutely insane when games inevitably slow down.

MorganFreemanBot2 votes

ADC stands for Attack Damage Carry.

The key word here is carry.

Carry.

ADCs are supposed to fulfill a late game role. When most champions are nearing full-build and their power curves are ramping down without anymore spikes, ADCs are supposed to 'come online' and hit a massive curve which allows them to tear through everything. Their role, with this sort of bar, is to give you a nuclear option with which to close out games. They're not supposed to be strong before then; hence the 'carry' part.

Put simply, they bent the formula over and fucked it sideways.

Put bluntly, Riot fucked this formula in the ass. They made ADCs which have strong early games and still outstrip everything (except for other carries) in the late game. They made carries which do exactly that in the mid game. They made self-sufficient assassin carries. They made carries with horrifying amounts of escape potential, meaning it took multiple people catching them alone to kill them.

It's ironic that you're complaining about Caitlyn, considering she's one of the best laners in the entire game.

She may not be an extraordinarily strong ADC right now, but one of the ultimate tests of a solo laner's potential is being able to lane against cait. There aren't many champs who can do it effectively, and even fewer who can win, when equal skill comes into play.

Anyway, the problem is that ADCs can fill every niche. The "late game" ADCs have never been late game carries, they've always become extremely lethal shockingly early and then ramped up into 11 beyond that. The early game ADC's have always started off absurdly lethal, and still been fully capable of dumping all over every non-ADC (damage wise) in the late game anyway. A distinct problem with League has always been that carries have absolutely no weaknesses. They've had periods of time when they're not as strong, but they've never been easily taken advantage of.

This led to them being mandatory in every game.

I want to harken back to my original statement: Carries are, as a concept, supposed to be a nuclear late game solution. **However they were originally intended to be optional. ** League disrupted this ecosystem by, as I said, making them too strong all the time.

What we're finally seeing now is carries being given a proper niche.

They're exactly what they should be: Late game monstrosities, early game wet noodles. Bringing a carry is now a choice and weighted with unique risks and rewards as opposed to a no brainer. Considering absolutely no other class has ever had the luxury of 100% pickrate in every single game in the same role, this is absolutely fine.

Mcsquzzy1 votes

Give cait back her runaan interaction with passive

Daddy Ants5 votes

{quoted}

Give cait back her runaan interaction with passive

No.

  • Caitlyn Runaan's interaction.
  • Vayne Tumble (Q) crit
  • Kai'Sa Runaan's interaction with E.

Those 3 mechanics are toxic and should NEVER be reintroduced.

More from Gameplay

More by Flashes