Upon consideration, I've reached a conclusion.

Flashes··55 votes·15,913 views

Some items that are in the game right now feel unsatisfying to play with/against.

Some champions in the game feel unsatisfying to play with/against.

I think I've found out why, and that it's that a lot of damage in the game right now isn't easily visible/telegraphed.


Duskblade and Stormrazor are two items that are looked down upon because they bring either free damage, are super broken on a select few champions, both, or are a band-aid/mandatory item.

Both of these are AD, if you'll notice. The reason the boards hates on them so much is because when you're facing a Duskblade user, that extra damage hurts.

So why are AP mid laners doing well?

That's because Riot decided to keep AP values high, but instead of adding interesting damage gimmicks, except for Liandry/Spellbinder, most items are just raw stats or Luden's Echo. Luden's Echo is a damage amplifier that is highly telegraphed, because it only works when a spell lands. However, when Assassins have mobility, the complaint is that Assassins can reliably proc Duskblade/Stormrazor without actually using "skill".

This creates an imbalance, where a few AP champions are overwhelming, and a few AD champions are overwhelming.

The few AP champions that are overwhelming scale well with AP, and take advantage of high AP ratios and high AP statsticks to dish out heavy damage throughout a fight.

The few AD champions that are overwhelming rely more on the massive amount of "free damage", like Electrocute, Duskblade, and Ignite, which is why high elo/professional players don't really struggle against assassins. Assassins rely too heavily on runes and those free damage procs to actually be useful. Champions like Talon rely on roaming power instead. On the off chance they can stat combat, it's usually a matchup of "Do I have enough Lethality/Armor Pen and AD + AD ratios + Ignite + Duskblade to actually pop this ADC?" Assassins become hugely unfun to play because it's literally just a matchup of stats, and an ADC near a support just won't die because an Assassin can't actually reach the ADC in time.

High elo players can also easily notice what items will do how much damage, and can easily play around Duskblade / Ignite damage values, and these are telegraphed by the enemy champions' position. If you're in AA range, you're going to get hit. That's how assassins work right now, and that's why higher elo players find it so much easier to counter.

AP champions have a different problem. They are also huge stat sticks that rely on gross AP ratios and gross AP values to dish out damage.

Let's use Zoe to explain. My first impression of Zoe was a power creeped version of Lux. This doesn't make too much sense, so let me explain. Zoe has an easy to aim E, which lets her run E into Q, but Lux relies on hitting fringe Qs to set up her full combo. Why are they similar? Zoe's trade pattern early game is similar to Lux's, where she pokes repeatedly with Q > AA > Q > AA, vs Lux, which is E (> AA). Both harass repeatedly until they can land a killing blow or chain damage to death with help of cc, but Zoe's is easier to land, and augments her damage more. However, Lux is better in teamfights, while Zoe is better in a 1v1, because of the hitboxes of the damage. Huge laser vs tiny star. However, as I played both champions, I realized that really what made Zoe seem so frustrating was that her damage was so badly telegraphed. If you get hit by E, but you don't see Zoe, she'll suddenly jump at you with a tiny star dealing 90% of your max hp. Tack on Ignite and you're dead. Lux has clearly visible skillshots that show you what you're about to expect.

Looking at the top AP and AD champions right now in high elo, we have Kassadin, Ahri, TF, Malzahar, Orianna, and Anivia as the top AP champs with Irelia, Yasuo, and Talon as the top AD champions. Other than Twisted Fate, Anivia, and Orianna, all other champions have a "kill zone" that's greater than just AA range. For Yasuo, Irelia, and Talon, they rely heavily on the same mechanics of other AD champs, but they have an edge on how easy it is to get the enemy INTO AA range to deal all that hidden damage. Kassadin gets R that deals a lot of damage, Ahri gets her R and also E's damage amplifier (which was a mistake), and Malzahar has a big range around him called "Do not walk in or I will ult you".

Orianna relies on her Ball, which is highly telegraphed. She's good for teamfights. Anivia's Q is the slowest projectile in the game, and you can literally walk out of it with ease. The changes to her R mean it won't deal damage until it's been telegraphed. TF is good because his roaming potential is so good, because it's instant. These three champions utilize heavy heavy power through OTHER means that aren't "Oneshot fiesta". These three champions are what I consider "Healthy" mid-laners, which are essentially play-enablers/teamfight champions.

Every other champ is "Hey let's rush at each other once we're in range, see who has more hidden damage packed into their kit and items, and they'll be the winner. If I dodge your skillshot I get an extra second of DPS/x damage negated." This is why it's so unfun to play Midlane right now.

Even champions like Yasuo, who look like they're having flashy plays, are mostly just 1v1ing multiple champs, repeatedly, in a short interval of time. Champions like Orianna and Anivia rely on being able to actively fight multiple enemies at once at slightly less power. Twisted Fate, Orianna, and Anivia also have highly telegraphed DAMAGE, not just highly telegraphed location of damage, which is huge, because everyone else relies on hidden INDICATORS of damage as WELL as hidden damage.


TL;DR: Hidden damage is ruining midlane and is making it unfun. AD champions tend to have items that hide damage, while AP champions tend to have an unclear range of where they can deal damage from, and how they can deal it.

Disclaimer: I'm tired so I probably left out some key points but oh well just ask me and I'll try to answer.

25 Comments

ModFrom The Cosmos19 votes

To add to your points. My main issue with changes to items and champions over the past 5+ years is that it feels that everything just has too much front loaded damage. Specifically base damage on abilities on tanks, supports and juggernauts.

In season 1-2 for the most part, it felt like you were super tanky, but hit like a wet noodle when you built tank items. On the flip side, you were destroyed instantly due to being squishy if you built glass canon. This forced you to build for that specific match you were in and there was always a trade-off with building more damage, and that is that you would die a lot easier.

Ultimately, I'd prefer base damages being lowered across the board in favor of an increase in AP & AD ratios across the board. This way you have the choice of being squishy, but dealing a ton of damage, or being tanky to soak damage & peel, but not really assassinating anyone.

Right now on current patch, top lane Malphite can just ult bottom after teleporting in and just double kill the enemy bottom lane with relative ease. Even when building no offensive items or masteries, his base damage is just so high, he automatically nukes any ADC or support unless they are Alistar.

Lord Guan3 votes

Preach

HollowMimic1 votes

^^this right here

I also hate the other side of the coin. When non-tanky champions, tank a lot while having no tank items and deal damage to you while being hyper mobile.

AKA IRELIA! This thing can take damage like a boss while dealing damage when diving, cripple you with ult and E, have fast basic attacks, tank extra with W and heal from Q. Only way to favorably trade with her is when she misses E at least for me.

It's not that I haven't won games against fed Irelias; it's that she's broken and not from her numbers.

Best part... She's not the only champ that can do that.

Hexmelt 1 votes

Amen, I'd upvote if I could lol.

GigglesO2 votes

I want mixed damage/ tank builds to be viable again too. I loved having build variety and being able to win games by knowing the team comp matchup better than the enemy, or losing but figuring out what I could have done differently.

Now I just feel like better champ/comp wins.

Miles The Man10 votes

I think that this argument is well constructed and very accurate to the state of the game nowadays.

Tahminatrix 8 votes

The few ap champions that are overwhelming are also reliable. Vel koz has some pretty insane ratios but hes not reliable at all, no mobility, squishy, skillshots..mainly a waveclear bot and requires certain champions to cc for him in order to make him anymore reliable, unlike champions like kassadin who have instant damage, high scaling, and decent mobility.

But I do believe if damage is hurt in general, then unreliable champions that pay that price to have such high damage / ratios will actually have room to play with their more reliable counterparts.

(an enemy champ only has so much hp afterall, if you can pick a reliable champion and burst them why would you ever want something unreliable) - is my main point

Seems like you were loosely aknowledging something similar when you were talking about anivia and telegraphed abilities.

Infact its all similar...usually the most reliable champions all have hidden damage. If damage was cut in general, not just (hidden damage), then unreliable / telegraphed champions would still be worth more for their gamble. including the untouched and forgotten Illaoi

Rewt4 votes

i still hate Illaoi Pull.

Yoink on a basic ability and RIP 70% of your HP.

TitanAnteus2 votes

She has to choose to either hit your ghost for 30% damage she'd give you, or fight you. If you fight her back when she pulls you have the advantage. Just don't let her hit both you and the ghost and you can win. The problem is if she takes your ghost while you're lower on health by a good amount even if you fight her you'll lose.

Tahminatrix 1 votes

Actually she has an advantage if you fight her with your ghost out since the ghost is potential damage amplification and healing , and another tentacle if she hits it with ult.

Say she uses E on you and rips out 70% of your hp and every tentacle that slams down hits both you and the ghost, that's roughly 170% damage. (Although her W itself can only hit one target.)

Btw the 70% doesn't lower when the player themselves takes damage directly, so if you get hit directly and end up losing 30% (or more realistically due to regen 31% or more) she can kill you just by depleting ghost`s healthbar.

And yes 70% is a filler number, she needs quite a bit of ad to get that high of a %

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

While there's a range limit inhibiting you from outright running from your own spirit, you can still hang at the edge which is out of range of her Q; and even if it gets broken, the spawned tentacles still have a windup and health bar, just sidestep and kill a few to end the curse early. However I've seen some use it as an alternate means of poke instead of attempting execution.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

i still hate Illaoi Pull.

Yoink on a basic ability and RIP 70% of your HP.

oh HE HIT AN e.. and You have to back 10/10 design, but then teamfights come and he cant reach anything apart from ocasional R>flash but by the time tentacles slam multiple times he dies anyway

Poske1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9VEUk7xx,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-03T03:11:30.385+0000)

The few ap champions that are overwhelming are also reliable. Vel koz has some pretty insane ratios but hes not reliable at all, no mobility, squishy, skillshots..mainly a waveclear bot and requires certain champions to cc for him in order to make him anymore reliable, unlike champions like kassadin who have instant damage, high scaling, and decent mobility.

Velkoz is worse version of Syndra and has been since release. As soon as I saw his fking spotlight... my first though was OK so why would I pick this tentacle garbage over syndra or even veigar? Do I literaly want Lower damage, harder time hitting abilities, worse burst, no pick off (infact his CC fks up allies skillshots) for a fake Damage niche (Velkoz does less dmg on average but some of it is true dmg) Even if you remove Voidstaff, Orb + sorcs from a game Velkoz still has no niche thats how garbage he is

I kinda chuckle any time someone who considers himself good midlaner picks him

Flashes1 votes

{quoted}

Velkoz is worse version of Syndra and has been since release. As soon as I saw his fking spotlight... my first though was OK so why would I pick this tentacle garbage over syndra or even veigar? Do I literaly want Lower damage, harder time hitting abilities, worse burst, no pick off (infact his CC fks up allies skillshots) for a fake Damage niche (Velkoz does less dmg on average but some of it is true dmg) Even if you remove Voidstaff, Orb + sorcs from a game Velkoz still has no niche thats how garbage he is

I kinda chuckle any time someone who considers himself good midlaner picks him

If you're going for true damage you're better off picking something else with the vast array of true damage available, or just building a Void Staff.

Vel'Koz is honestly just discount Xerath+discount Lux imo.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

If you're going for true damage you're better off picking something else with the vast array of true damage available, or just building a Void Staff.

Vel'Koz is honestly just discount Xerath+discount Lux imo.

Ziggs has been outclassed by xerath since season 4. Kinda sad I cant play my main without it being considered trolling Velkoz was never even close to syndra presence, thats his main rival in my eyes

Not sure how comparable velkoz is to xerath Xerath kinda outranges everything thats his niche.

Lux is ranged one shot shield mage > comparable to zoe which is ranged one shot cancer cc mage

DemainaNyx4 votes

I feel you did a good job explaining this. I'd also like to add in the "don't do anything yet get free damage" playstyle. Waiting for your cooldowns is fine. It makes sense for an assassin to use his combo, duck out, and come back when it's up again. What I dislike is that the hidden power rewards them for not fighting.

Example. A Draven properly juggling axes makes sense (to me) that he gets extra damage, because he's playing the mini game that makes his champion strong. However, a Draven running at you with Stormrazor, pressing Q and W getting a free Crit doesn't (to me), since nothing he did there required any thought on the part of the player.

Draven is supposed to be this champion that gets more damage by juggling axes. So, in my opinion, getting a free crit for not doing anything seems dumb. I would rather he be rewarded for juggling, like he gains 5 extra damage for each axes he catches in succession, so that him not autoing actually lowers his damage potential. I don't mean this to be a nerf for Draven, but he's the best champion to explain it since everyone understands his mini game.

Jhin's reload is supposed to hinder him. During his reload he's not doing DPS. But, with Stormrazor, his reload rewards him. Again, doesn't make sense (to me) because why bother having him reload if he's just going to get a free crit during it.

The other one is sheen items. Watch a Corki miss every Q and R he throws out, but it doesn't matter because his autos and E shred just make him automatically win the trade despite him missing everything. Why is he rewarded for missing skillshots? Doesn't make sense to me.

DOUBLE TAPPED E2 votes

This seems pretty accurate to me. Katarina

Rewt2 votes

Ahri's E Damage amp was originally put in place to Try and Fill the void in her kit left by the removal of DFG.

Now that the game has developed past the DFG days it would be fine to remove the damage amp.

But back in those days. DFG was so integral to her kit that the removal really hurt her identity and turned her from a burst mage into a kite mage.

And to those who dont know. DFG was Deathfire's Grasp boiled down to "Hey. Wanna fucking nuke some kid?" Also apparently came back in some gamemode a month or 2 back

Even2 votes

Gameplay+ :)

Flashes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I NEED YOU,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9VEUk7xx,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-10-03T03:43:57.160+0000)

Gameplay+ :)

Gameplay+ is a breeding ground for disaster, where reviewers can pick and choose which statements they like to send them through, so I tend to put it on the normal boards where the entire populace can decide for themselves whether something is true or not.

Daddy Ants2 votes

item 3285 - Free damage item 3100 - Free damage item 3146 - Free damage item 3030 - Free damage item 3152 - Free damage and mobility.

AP has plenty as well.

0 Hogapu1 votes

Mages only build one item from those.

Try again :)

Hexmelt 1 votes

GLP is kinda shittier than it was before don't see many people build it at all.

GB is more for Akali, Katarina, and Jax so no one else really uses them.

Protobelt is similar in that respect very select few build it.

Luden's and Lich seem to be the most common whereas the rest could probably be deleted and no one would even know.

Flashes1 votes

{quoted}

item 3285 - Free damage item 3100 - Free damage item 3146 - Free damage item 3030 - Free damage item 3152 - Free damage and mobility.

AP has plenty as well.

Sure. If you look at the items used though,

Luden's Echo gives a flat bonus of 100 bonus AP and needs chargeup through movement. Lich Bane is like Trinity Force, and these two are not considered "free damage" because you need to actually cast a spell and then weave your autoattack in, and wait for its cooldown. Hextech items all share a cooldown, and aside from Hextech Gunblade on AP assassins that dash and weave around dealing constant damage like Katarina and Akali, and Hextech Protobelt on Fizz for extra burst, they're mostly not built in favor of even more AP.

Hexmelt 1 votes

nearly an even amount db, rb, rav hydra, tita hyrda, trinity force and muramana gunblade isn't really a mage only item tho also doubt it really counts unless you're also counting blade of the ruined king

i wish ap items were actually useful outside of raw ap like if there was an ap steraks, black cleaver, or maybe an essence reaver (though essence flare itself could've been a rune i don't get why it's not) also more useful stuff like the current shurelya's reverie and twin shadows

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