Tahm Kench has a 46% winrate or less at all elos

THE RlVER KlNG··41 votes·3,273 views

His highest winrate at the moment is about 46.5% at around Diamond, and then dropping into Master, and being as low as 42% around Bronze and Silver (data taken from OP.GG and LOLKing). The latest mini-rework he got was aimed at increasing his support winrate, while also helping him duel top; however, they have done neither. His winrate, which had hovered around 47-48% prior to the ult and passive changes, has now dropped since then, in both of his primary roles, top and support. Playing him, the E nerfs were really big and the passive shift punished his top lane performance whilst only marginally 'improving' support dueling potential. And in a meta of ADCs like Jhin and Ashe, who can kite him, he also does not transition well into either laning vs them as a support or keeping up as a top lane tank.

I understand how frustrating it can be to play against the Kench - he's got a really frustrating kit, after all. But low winrates usually indicate one of three things: a) they are high-skill cap and a bunch of noobs are picking them, b) they were recently released, or c) they are underpowered. I'l be the first to admit as a 250k Mastery 7 Kench that he's not all that hard to play mechanically - eat shit and shield everything else. And he's been around for about a year now. So this is a clear indication that he is not performing as well as most of the roster.

EDIT: If a Rioter happens to see this, what are your plans for the big guy going forward?

169 Comments

BremerdanGorst13 votes

Honestly, during the bulk of the Tahm complaints, I always thought he was overrated as hell. What's that, you're complaining about the guy who has to walk towards you and auto you 3 times before actually hard CCing you? I mean, it's admittedly annoying to lane against him since most probably can't outtrade him, but eh.

TheHurricaneGamr3 votes

Darius Renekton Yasuo Illaoi Hecarim Pantheon Shen Teemo Yorick lane bullies are nothing new.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

From my experience, Tahm wins vs Shen and Panth. Illaoi and Heca are more skill matchups. Yorick is just cancer, but Darius, Renek, and Teemo beat him almost universally.

TotalJerk2 votes

Yorick is getting a complete relaunch in huge part thanks to his cancerous laning, Hecarim has been nerfed repeatedly for it, Darius got reworked for totally shutting down anything that isn't ranged, and Teemo is known as "Satan" by the community.

Cosmic Warper7 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, during the bulk of the Tahm complaints, I always thought he was overrated as hell. What's that, you're complaining about the guy who has to walk towards you and auto you 3 times before actually hard CCing you? I mean, it's admittedly annoying to lane against him since most probably can't outtrade him, but eh.

Honestly the only problem i have with Tahm is his ability to deny any play made on any character on his team with his W. That's the most unfun thing to play against since the ability doesn't even have a long cd once he gets some cdr.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Get a team comp with shit tons of AOE and CC. Tahm is fantastic against teams that want to get a pick but he's really bad at wombo combo teams that dish out a lot of AOE because he can only eat one person.

Tobias Brackner6 votes

Tahm is fine

THE RlVER KlNG8 votes

Obviously not.......

Tobias Brackner4 votes

Dude, there are a billion things that effect win rate. You gotta wait for shit to stabilize before talkin about stuff needing to be done with a champ.

Like, for real Rito talks about winrate once with a champ now suddenly everybody is tracking winrates and are trying to be part of the Riot development team instead of playing the damn character.

THE RlVER KlNG9 votes

I have almost 500 games on Tahm across all roles, primarily top, jungle, and support. I have nearly 250k mastery and have had Mastery 7 for weeks now. I think I've played the damn character enough to know that he's not doing well and his horrendous winrates reflect that. Just because he's unpopular doesn't mean he should be kept down in sub 45% winrates. He's been bleeding from several nerfs since preseason almost and these latest changes only hurt him. 'Waiting for things to stabilize' won't cut it for me when power picks run rampant for months but Tahm can't get a few tiny buffs after floundering for almost three patches now.

Profirix4 votes

Tahm is my most played support, I know where you are coming from. Especially as a support, he isn't nearly as impactful as he used to be. They took too much damage off and didn't compensate his support capabilities. Maybe if they slightly lowered the CD on Devour, or reduced the CD if you eat an ally vs an enemy. In lane, eating one person to save them is easy. It gets much much harder in a teamfight when you can only save one person. He isn't rewarded enough for making the right choice.

l Helios l4 votes

Dude, there are a billion things that effect win rate.

Affect*

Also people have been looking at win rates for a long time. I'm not sure why you think it's been a recent development.

More to the point, Tahm fits in nowhere right now; he simply can't contend top lane vs. Tri force users and juggernauts just because he lacks damage against both categories. He can't fit as a support because he can't survive poke from Karma and Zyra, in addition to not being able to to brawl in bot lane with Taric and Braum. He's just grossly underpowered to be viable in virtually any lane; his utility doesn't compensate for his lack of damage and survivability. So we need to either: 1. Increase his survivability, or 2. Increase his damage.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

he can't survive poke from Karma and Zyra

wut

wait wut, really? Do you forget that people can...you know...dodge poke? And Tahm still heals a portion of whatever damage he tanks sooo yeah.

As far as brawling sure but he can also protect his carry in a way that they are gonna have a hard time contending with the damage from his minion spit, Marksmen protection, AND THE FACT HE CAN DEEP STRIKE WITH A HOMIE

l Helios l2 votes

17.5% of damage dealt at level 1. 40.5% at level 18 (because who maxes E first or second). I'd hardly call that healing a portion. Say he takes 200 damage, congratulations you just healed 35 HP as long as you aren't forced to pop your shield. Some mitigation sure, but when you consider your only retaliation costs an arm in mana, it's not very good compared to other supports.

Other supports don't possess the kind of peel he has with W, but considering how it's been consistently nerfed and is hardly that reliable beyond blocking a few key shots like Zed ult, Karthus ult, and Cait ult. Everything else, including Cait ult, Braum can block with E and his body, Karma can shield, and Taric can shield plus ult plus heal. Zyra can just outdamage most supports in her own right.

Also, Tahm ult is nice if the other team isn't smart enough to pinch them off from their team. His ult is cool, but it's not good enough to make up for a weak champion.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

(because who maxes E first or second)

PEOPLE WHO GET POKED IN LANE.

Also, bonus points for ignoring the fact that people can ignore skillshots.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

Hey, did you know that everybody (Tahm included) can dodge skillshots?

l Helios l1 votes

Yes people can dodge, but the difference between dodging a skill shot as Tahm versus any other support is that other supports have heals (Taric, Soraka for her ADC or herself via Q) that aren't terrible or flat armor/Mr buffs (Braum, sort of Thresh via passive), or a way to block skill shots easily (Braum again) or shields (Karma, Janna, Thresh, Blitz passive) or movespeed to make dodging easier (Karma again, Blitz, Janna). Zyra being the only major exception of note, as she has no sustain or blocks available.

Tahm's only sustain isn't even really sustain considering he has to take damage to even get a heal, and the heal isn't even that good early. Also, I've never meet any Tahm who has felt E is better to max before Q or W. If that's how you do things, then go for it, but I don't think it's a safe thing to say "people who get poked in lane" as though that generalization can hold any weight in this discussion.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

So Tahm gets to heal himself for free (and if for whatever reason you are having a really hard time dodging skill shots you can rank it up) and you compare him to people who have moves that cost Mana...

l Helios l1 votes

It's not free. You have to be damaged for it to ever matter. If Tahm avoids all poke, then he has no sustain. Even if you want to call it free, 17 health per 100 damage is hardly likable. Trundle and Mundo get passive sustain without even doing anything.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

#It's only free if you get damage

#The only time you want to heal is when you take dmg

[zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm] [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Homie, if you are having such a hard time avoiding dmg as Tahm then yeah, rank up his shield. Last time I checked, Kobe doesn't oversee all games and the moment someone ranks something off-META and forces an instant lose. If you are that sensitive about it then mute flamers, report them, and do your thin.

#Trundle and Mundo are also top laners

AFK Push1 votes

I thought we were talking about all of his roles not just support. Also, Trundle and Mundo, just like Tahm aren't just limited to one role. Trundle support in particular is actually a quite powerful pick (usually maxing pillar first).

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Somewhere back there you can find my comment mentioning that I feel that Tahm is a Support first and all other roles second (or something along those lines). As such I feel that so long as he can function in his primarly role just fine he doesn't need buffs.

As for Trundle support I find it to be niche pick but that there are other ones who do most of what he does in a superior way and is overall a waste of what makes Trundle strong. In light of that I feel that Trundle support is another example of competitive players having no idea what they are doing and just picking stuff because of vague math.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

wut

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I think you're really underestimating Tahm's ability to deal with people bot lane, especially tanky champs. He's still very potent bot even against poke champs.

Edit: And please don't give me the no reply downvote, I play Tahm all the time as a support and he's still perfectly capable of being played there. I am NOT saying he couldn't use some buffs but he's hardly garbage tier.

l Helios l1 votes

You've offered nothing to the discussion other than your doubt about my capabilities of understanding a champion's balance. If you'd care to actually be useful in the discussion, I'd be appreciative.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

You've offered no specifics on how Tahm does poorly in bot lane. How does he do poorly against Taric? How does he do poorly against Karma or Zyra? I've played these matchups and they are not the kind of stomps for them that you think they are. All you have said is that these are matchups he just cannot win and never given specifics on how he can't win them.

For instance, Zyra is a super easy lane for Tahm. If she tries to all in your ADC with a root then you devour them and nullify that engage, same with Taric if he tries to go for a stun or Braum if he lands a Q on your ADC and tries to all in.

That's Tahm's greatest strength, the ability to deny the enemy an all in and make them waste mana and summoners trying to kill your carry. Against poke you play it safe, land Q's when you can for your own poke and be on the look out for opportunities for you to get aggressive, especially if your jungler pings that they are gonna gank.

He's perfectly capable of fighting with tanky sups and he's also perfectly capable of dealing with poke and the more you deny the enemy laners an all in the more discouraged they will get, opening up your ability to make aggressive plays of your own. He can still do great damage and be tanky, he is still viable.

This does not mean he is in the greatest spot however. As I said elsewhere in this thread, I've been playing Tahm since he was released and have stuck with him for all of that time so it could just be that my experience makes me unnaturally better with him than he is for people that don't have that.

So it is my opinion that, yes, he does need tweaks and buffs but he does not need a lot of them. He needs buffs to make him easier to pick up or for him to have more ways to influence those around him, I actually made a suggestion elsewhere here for them to make some potential changes to his E to make it interact with his passive.

l Helios l3 votes

All you have said is that these are matchups he just cannot win and never given specifics on how he can't win them.

Fair enough. Let's talk.

For instance, Zyra is a super easy lane for Tahm. If she tries to all in your ADC with a root then you devour them and nullify that engage, same with Taric if he tries to go for a stun or Braum if he lands a Q on your ADC and tries to all in.

Ok. Makes sense I suppose. Let's consider some things though. onsidering Tahm's W is on a 14 second CD at level 1, Taric E is on a 15 second CD. Zyra E is 12 seconds. Tahm W is 90 mana, while Taric E is 60 mana. Zyra E is 70 mana and scales up to 90 mana. So, if Tahm uses his W to negate an initiate from either champion, his W will still be on cooldown when Zyra E comes up, making another initiate possible. In regards to Taric, both abilities are quite close in CD, so that is a non-factor. However, both Zyra and Taric have lower Mana costs than Tahm, so Tahm should run out of mana before either one, under the assumption that he must use W to save his ADC. Same applies for Braum Q, cost = 50 - 75 and CD = 10 - 6. If you tried to wait until his passive stacked up, you run the risk of letting your ADC take damage that's unnecessary because you want to conserve mana and hope they aren't dumb enough to let his passive trigger.

Here's the other thing, in response to an initiate, Tahm puts himself in danger to save the ADC; when he W's, it means the enemy duo can hit him all they want and his ADC can't respond because they're indisposed. Sure he can run, but damage can still come through, especially if he was stupid enough to get stunned or rooted while saving his carry. I mean, walking is good and all, but with the range of a Caitlyn, the dash of a Lucian, the move speed buff of a Draven, dash of a Corki (unlikely but still), or the slows and range of an Ashe, that's not easy to do without taking at least some damage. And as I've mentioned before, his E has a really bad conversion to serve as a sustain source since you basically get 35 health per 200 damage taken at rank 1.

That's Tahm's greatest strength, the ability to deny the enemy an all in and make them waste mana and summoners trying to kill your carry.

Only argument here is that Tahm uses more mana than most laners to discourage all ins. You're right that it's his strength, but it feels more like a liability since he takes the damage instead of the carry and pays a higher cost to stop it than it took for his foes to start it.

Against poke you play it safe, land Q's when you can for your own poke and be on the look out for opportunities for you to get aggressive, especially if your jungler pings that they are gonna gank.

Fair enough to play safe versus poke when you're melee. But Tahm Q stops at first target hit, so minions can stop your response to poke, especially if your ADC doesn't hit the minions enough and you end up under tower, which tends to happen vs poke. Other stuff like Karma and Zyra ignored minions for the most part, Zyra being the greater offender due to pets plus Q and E. Karma only thing is R + Q being a strong AOE or the point & click root tether. Janna isn't exactly poke oriented, but her Q still passes through minions, W is point & click, and she can get beefy autos. Raka has decent ranged AOE poke that also acts as sustain.

For dealing with getting aggressive, all 4 of the ranged supports I named are pretty good at disengage or preventing engage in the first place. Janna has passive MS or a slow, a linear knock up and slow, and the infamous monsoon. Raka has E, which isn't amazing, but a silence is still something. Zyra has raw damage and a root to stop ganks/trades, and Karma has R + E and W. In these cases, pulling something would almost certainly require a 3 stack stun, W, or ulti in with the jungler, the latter of the 3 being the most probably versus a poke lane. I can remember when Tahm first came out that one of the biggest problems with Tahm support was that you couldn't really use the Q stun or W versus most laners because you couldn't get close enough without getting poked out first by the enemy ADC or knocked away by the enemy Alistar (biggest nuisance I can remember). That all changed really because he got a few support oriented buffs if I remember correctly, but that all seems to have turned around for the worse.

He's perfectly capable of fighting with tanky sups and he's also perfectly capable of dealing with poke and the more you deny the enemy laners an all in the more discouraged they will get, opening up your ability to make aggressive plays of your own. He can still do great damage and be tanky, he is still viable.

I think he can be capable, but I think it's too heavily dependent on the enemy doing stupid things more than the Tahm being a solid player. The psychological aspect of cock-blocking is valid, but that's a level of frustration that Riot has specifically stated is a bad thing with Tahm. Tahm was a frustration to deal with because he immediately negated anything your team did right with one ability, hence why the ability was nerfed several times. Honestly, I always felt Thresh W was much more frustrating than Tahm W. Thresh doesn't even risk anything by throwing the lantern, while Tahm puts his own life on the line to save his carry. The balancing factor for Thresh W is ADCs are idiots.

I don't think Tahm is unviable, I just think it's harder to make him work than a Braum or a Taric or a Thresh. I think the error Riot made was in nerfing his damage and utility simultaneously rather than an either or situation. Utility is a great thing to have as it makes you less one-dimensional, but if you nerf both aspects of what a champion can do (damage and utility), then the champion just suffers in a possible facets. I feel like that logic is easy to follow, and it shows where we are with Tahm balance. Tahm feels as though he should be heavily utility based, but his utility feels subpar compared to that of other tank supports. He's oriented around an ally saving ability in his W, but since this ability has been nerfed as a function saving an ally (move speed buff when hold allies is gone), once of his big skills as a support is weaker. It still functions as a nice damage tool and pick ability, which compliments the pick potential of his ult, but as a support who's goal is peel, the ability is not what it probably needs to be for orientation as a support.

I wouldn't really mind having the move speed back on his W with an ally inside, but I think it would need to be minimal at best, maybe 15% at highest point. Or at least remove that pause he has when he spits someone out.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I'm going to not comment on what you've said about Tahm's current match ups. I have my points and you have yours and I can tell that you've clearly put a lot of thought into why Tahm is doing poorly and how he could be improved and I'd much rather discuss that with you than waste both of our time and energy on arguing about that, if it comes off as me conceding you are right then so be it.

In regards to bringing back the movespeed buff with allies, perhaps instead they could increase the range that Tahm can spit an ally out. The difference would be that it would emphasize that Tahm is putting himself at risk to save someone while also giving him the ability to save people better.

I'll repost here some of my ideas about his E too.

Maybe make it so his E has an interaction with his passive? Maybe if he pops his shield he takes reduced damage from enemies with stacks of his passive on them? This could help him in the top lane by making his clutch duels with the enemy easier for him.

Or maybe make it so using his E when an enemy has stacks will cause a burst of water to rupture from them, dealing minor damage and reducing their resistances with more damage and reduction for more stacks. This could help tone down his damage since they wouldn't need to have it all be concentrated in just two abilities and his passive and give him a bit of aoe damage and utility in teamfights.

Or maybe make it so his E isn't just a self shield, make it so he can use it on himself or an ally but have it so using it on an ally shields them for a much smaller amount. Part of the issue with his shield right now, at least in the support role, is that it's a completely selfish ability on a champ that only has two abilities to influence a fight and it would come with the decision of whether to use it on himself for more tanking or his carry to save them.

One of the things I didn't like about him when he was first released was that his passive only interacted with two of his abilities (And that it was more a tooltip for those abilities than anything). This is different now with the passive and ult changes but I still think they should find a way to make his E do more for him than just shield him so that he can have more ways to influence people.

Beoridas1 votes

his survivability is what was really stupid with him in the first place, the dmg was huge, but he was so hard to kill that it was dumb.

that being said, LCS teams seems to like what he brings to the table, (like some EU team picking kass somehow)

l Helios l3 votes

Oh agree it was bad. But that's not a valid reason for him to just be nerfed to near unviability. Other tanks just peel better than him because his peel is reliant on him taking the damage for the ADC. If he's not tanky enough to do that, then he can't do his job.

Sightless662 votes

You gotta wait for shit to stabilize

It's been long enough. Shit's pretty stabilized.

now suddenly everybody is tracking winrates and are trying to be part of the Riot development team instead of playing the damn character.

Those two things are not exclusive. People are playing the damn character. They're also justifiably annoyed that they're weaker with the character than someone else with the same amount of experience on a different character is. Playing the character more increases that annoyance.

Dude, there are a billion things that effect win rate.

Sure, but given that no other stats indicate that Tahm is doing well either, and given that there isn't anything about him that should really deflate his winrate, and given that he sees no competitive play, we can be pretty confident in saying that's he's in the "terrible" category.

Tobias Brackner2 votes

The last nerf was 6 months ago, chill out these things take a long time dude.

I don't see him being too much weaker, he has incredible utility that other champions lack.

He does see competitive play, but for some reason they only play him in toplane which makes no sense. tbh some of the champs that competitive players choose are more of a weird popularity contest than actually making sense.

Sightless664 votes

The last nerf was 6 months ago, chill out these things take a long time dude.

Dude, 6 months is a long time. That is more than long enough. Shit has settled down in 6 months. We're not going to see major changes after that long. This is being way, way too patient.

Well, actually, that's not entirely true. We have seen some minor change. At the start of the summer split, he saw a little competitive play. Now he sees almost none. That's definitely a change. Not exactly the change we'd want, but it is a change.

I mean, what's your definition of "a long time"? How long exactly are you thinking of? A year? 2? How does 6 months with no positive changes not indicate that he isn't going to see positive changes?

I don't see him being too much weaker, he has incredible utility that other champions lack.

I do see him being that much weaker. He has some good utility, but he pays too much for it. Just having something unique isn't good enough if the enemy can just walk over you anyway despite it.

He does see competitive play, but for some reason they only play him in toplane which makes no sense.

First, he sees a very small amount of competitive play, and it's only been decreasing since the start of the split. Second, it actually make sense in competitive play to put him as a top laner. In competitive lane swaps, top laners routinely get shafted in gold and experience. Many top laners can't cope with that well. Tahm can, given that he doesn't scale particularly well with gold and a lot of his power is in inherent utility. This allows him to actually compete with the other top laner by virtue of not being as screwed without gold as they are.

However, if you throw him in as a support, then you're pretty much fucked if you do end up in a 2v2 lane because of how much worse a laner he is than almost every other competitive support, and you also can't push as fast as your enemies will in a lane swap. You're also putting all your eggs in the "protect the carry" basket, when other supports can protect the carry very well while also maintaining aggressive potential. Very little about him really works as a support in competitive unless he's numerically strong enough to take a fight, and he just isn't.

tbh some of the champs that competitive players choose are more of a weird popularity contest than actually making sense.

Eh, I'm inclined to disagree. When you look at the picks from the constraints of competitive play, they generally make sense. There's a bit of meta-following going on, but there's usually a pretty strong rationale behind whatever's popular at the moment. For example, Tahm is losing popularity, and there is a very good reason why.

Tobias Brackner2 votes

We're not going to see major changes after that long

Yes you are, primarily people accepting that Tahm Kench is a support with unique and powerful utility and they will stop whining about him not being as good in Jungle and Top.

if the enemy can just walk over you anyway despite it.

No they can't, don't be hyperbolic.

As for your next paragraph I hope you realize that your complaints revolve entirely around the current meta. Nerfing and buffing champions to make them viable in a meta is an incredibly silly thing to do, especially since the meta is revolving around a playstyle of "play to not lose"

There's a bit of meta-following going on

Homie, there is nothing but meta-following going on. That's the point of competitive play, to play to the meta or find ways to change or challenge the meta through play. Unfortunately, competitive in League is pretty much just 100% play to the meta, and that meta is "play safe and pick things that make it harder for us to lose" combined with some random math they use to justify picks almost completely ignoring the idea of utility and team composition.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Here, let's make things easy. Do you have side-by-side comparisons of Tahm with other supports to show how much he is lacking?

And no general "so and so has X" hard math numbers comparing the two.

Sightless663 votes

I should note that if you make a comment replying to yourself, I'm very unlikely to see it. If I had gone by the message notification instead of just refreshing this page, I wouldn't have seen your second message.

Yes you are, primarily people accepting that Tahm Kench is a support with unique and powerful utility and they will stop whining about him not being as good in Jungle and Top.

So, if I read your argument correctly, you're basically saying after a year of him being out, people haven't realized that he can be used as a support, and they haven't put enough time into trying him out to know what his support potential is? Or alternatively, they just don't want to run him as as support because they're grumpy about him not being a top laner? Do I have that roughly right?

Nope. Not buying it. People were perfectly happy to run him as a support before, and they would do so again in a heartbeat if he was worth a damn. He was a competitive darling. If there was a chance of him being good, people would jump on it. People don't need this long to try something they'd already played before. Hell, people who used to play Tahm support still are, and they aren't doing very well with him.

Tahm is not the only champion with unique utility. Most supports can do something much, much better than other supports, but unlike Tahm, they bring other strengths to the table as well.

Hell, Tahm's entire purpose is in saving a carry's life. That's the only thing he's good at right now. If I want that, I can take Karma or Braum. They're both good competitively, they can save a life just fine, and they'll do way more than Tahm can outside of that small niche. That's why they're better than him. Doing one thing well isn't good enough if you suck at everything else. Great champions have flexibility.

I'm just going to repeat my earlier question: what exactly is your definition of "long enough"? How long do you expect people to wait without any positive developments before it's good enough for you? What do you think we should be waiting for?

especially since the meta is revolving around a playstyle of "play to not lose"

That sounds like Tahm's ideal meta. His kit screams risk-aversion at the top of its lungs.

No they can't, don't be hyperbolic.

It's not just hyperbole. He does lack numerical strength, and that matters a ton. It means that he's extremely easy to take advantage of.

As for your next paragraph I hope you realize that your complaints revolve entirely around the current meta.

You're assuming that he's bad only because of the current meta, and I think that's not a justified assumption. I think he could get even weaker with meta changes. Hell, Riot is actively attempting to get rid of the lane swaps, and he's currently only played when there's a lane swap because no one wants to 1v1 or 2v2 with him. That's not going to give him any help.

Do you have a reason for thinking that meta changes will be enough to bring him back in? Are you thinking of something specific?

Do you have side-by-side comparisons of Tahm with other supports to show how much he is lacking?

Do you? You seem to have a strong opinion about his current state. One could very reasonably ask where you get this opinion from. Show me some hard numbers. Surely you wouldn't ask for something you couldn't provide yourself, would you?

I can point you to winrate stats, playrate stats, and a decreasing competitive playrate. It's not much, but if I were a betting man I'd put money on you not even having that much. So, prove me wrong. What do you have?

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Nope. Not buying it

You really should. He has utility completely unique to himself as well as good CC and good dmg. I'm certain that the only reason he isn't seeing a lot of play is that people don't want to put in the effort to actually use that utility to its fullest (just count how many sick Bard plays there are in competitive, seriously you'd think they didn't know he could stasis towers)

Watch competitive League and the patterns of play. You will see pro players go in with teams that have no initiation aside from flash, pick champions with strong early damage but refuse to use it in the early game, and build characters full tank despite the insane amount of damage the character has with one or two dmg items. They do some math, declare certain champions to be the best, pick those champions, and then play like scared babies afraid of losing instead of professional players confident in their team that play to win.

Sightless664 votes

I guess we're just giving up on the hard-numbers thing then.

Watch competitive League and the patterns of play.

You know what's funny about this to me? Everything you said in this paragraph describes to me why Tahm should actually be really strong right now. We have people playing incredibly passive, scared games. That's Tahm's lifeline. He loves being defensive. Risk aversion is his number 1 thing. It's what he's built for. If he's not even a factor when pro teams are playing this scared, how pathetic would he be if he had to actually show aggression to be successful? He'd drop off of the face of the earth.

I think pro teams playing scared is the only reason he sees even the small amount of play that he does. Force teams to be aggressive, and he won't survive. Hell, he already only sees play in lane swaps because of how much of a bitch he is early. That's a great indicator of how much he'd crumple under some actual fighting early game instead of a 10 minute tower push.

He has utility completely unique to himself as well as good CC and good dmg.

The effect of his unique utility (saving lives) can be replicated by other champions that also bring more general utility to the table, along with even more damage and stronger CC. Tahm's damage is very easy to play against with even a little coordination, and his CC is terrible for initiating fights, which is a problem no matter where you play.

Thing is, the vast majority of champions do something unique, and when you look at Tahm's competition, it's pretty clear why his uniqueness is being trumped by theirs. Take Braum: He can save multiple lives with the shield, his CC is much stronger, his damage as as support is comparable, and he's got early game fighting power coming out the whazoo. Tahm can save someone from a very focused pickoff better than Braum, but he's paling in comparison to Braum.

At the end of the day, uniqueness isn't that unique. Fact is, I can replicate the "unique" job of most any champion with another pick if I need to. I can pick someone else to do 90% of Tahm's job while being better at everything else than him, and that means that I don't need Tahm. He got nerfed too hard, and he needs buffs.

We've seen no positive changes in a very long time. I expect none in the future. I will continue to look forward to games where I get to play against Tahm supports, because there is truly nothing freer than playing against a Tahm.

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

The nerf to his E really hurt his early game tankiness, and because of the crack-like snowballing, he'll never catch up to maintain durability until an hour later.

THE RlVER KlNG4 votes

Yep. I can see the frustration of playing against E, but it was his only steroid as an engage-less, immobile tank. If they had wanted to nerf him in any way, that would not have been my first choice. His ultimate damage nerf was already pretty substantial.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I agree, the 8% max health damage as a bonus wasn't remotely strong until late game; by then most players have picked up magic resist of some kind. I like him, but chogath just feels like a flatout better pick for an immobile tank; since the double nerf.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

If you want a protector support, pick Braum and do twice the job. If you want a tank duelist, pick Shen or Irelia or Trundle. Or any Jugg for that matter.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yU3z4QKP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-07-31T21:23:52.896+0000)

The nerf to his E really hurt his early game tankiness, and because of the crack-like snowballing, he'll never catch up to maintain durability until an hour later.

yeah which is when an adc negates tanks .

Eedat3 votes

Masters and Challenger data is never really accurate for anything besides the super meta picks because theres never really enough of a sample size

But.....ugh trust me I do hate saying this....I think Tahm is a bit weak right now. I really dislike Playing with and against Tahm. His kit is frustrating and full of cheese. And in my opinion has the highest percentage of people outright trolling their team over all the other champs.

But I guess he could use some small buffs...... sigh what have I become

Blue Moon Wolf3 votes

The same issues a few other over nerfed champs are facing right now. Riot see's that they are doing too well, start nerfing everything except the issue, finally nerf the thing that is causing the problem and now they are overnerfed with Riot leaving them there. To me, I think the best thing for Tahm right now is to give him back his utility. If he could at least get 50% of his movement speed boost with an ally in his mouth while running away back, it would be very helpful. The fact is that he's a tank, which means he's naturally slow. So eating an ally to save them really isn't going to work when you are too slow to get away. Doing this would mean they wouldn't have to give him a direct power buff and at only 50% of the speed boost, he won't be making as many saves as he did when they removed it.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

Ugh I remember that nerf. That was awful. I agree he should have some of his movement speed back when he has an ally.

Shaaolin3 votes

They nerfed passive damage just a bit. Time will tell if he needs buffs.

THE RlVER KlNG7 votes

Time will tell? It's been two patches now, almost three. He's been sitting on one of the worst winrates in both roles since then. They also nerfed his shield by a ton. And before then they've been taking away his utility and ult damage.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Meanwhile aatrox's winrate dropped by 9% in one patch and riot doesn't bother doing anything. I quit playing aatrox for this reason. And I ask myself why am I wasting time bother trying new builds on him... Why pick aatrox when you have irelia, xin zhao, hecarim, olaf? They don't get dumpstered in lane like aatrox. Aatrox needs to get ahead and once he does he's good at everything, But he just can't get this lead. Why should a darius with doran's balde and me with doran's blade and him with armor seals and me with armor seals too, how can he be level 2 and have more hp than a level 4 aatrox seriously... His base stats being lower due to passive is ok, but they're adc-assassins level right now...

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

I feel you man. I've dropped Tahm a bit for GP the last few weeks. I just wish champs sitting on consistently low winrates get helped instead of dominating champs getting a little love tap every patch.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Yeah. It honestly sucks when things like this happen. :( And it's perfectly possible to balance him, remove his goddamn useless revive passive! I don't know why riot would buff a 50% winrate champion into 58 but leave some people sit at ~43.... :(

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