There has not been a single class update that fixed more problems than it created

THE RlVER KlNG··250 votes·9,834 views

Starting with the Juggernaut rework, which is widely and well-deservedly considered a complete failure. The only 'successful' part of that rework is Darius, and not successful in that it correctly solved his problems or made him more healthy to face - no, just that he got a massive net buff and a huge boost to power creep. It's pretty much impossible for a competent Darius to lose lane now unless he is either camped or versus a competent Fiora or ranged champion, and was busted as fuck after a few small buffs, dominating the pro scene alongside GP and Fiora. He's since been toned down but is still utter hell to play against as pretty much every melee champion not named Fiora or Trundle and, while not as feast or famine, still very binary and problematic.

Garen was an objective failure and continues to be weak and underused in high tiers of play. Skarner's success shifts back and forth based on how strong the Cinderhulk-Trinity Force rush is for him, and his spires minigame is ridiculous and unnecessary. He's either pretty oppressive in the jungle or a shadow pick that serves as an ult bot. The items the update brought were welcome additions, but Steraks was pretty quickly abused by ADCs and thusly nerfed; DMP is pretty much a must buy on most top lane tanks; and Titanic has been repeatedly nerfed and is only seen on fringe users like TK and Volibear, who scale better with health than raw AD.

I could write a whole post on how god awful the Mordekaiser rework was, but you can ask the legion of Morde mains here about that if you want. It created more problems than it attempted to fix and continues to have massive repercussions today.

The ADC rework is my personal most hated. It took 6 ADCs that undeniably had problems, jacked up their damage and utility, and made them all ridiculously strong balance nightmares that continue to be problems over a season later. ADCs were perhaps too weak early in S5, but that is because Vayne, Kalista, and Jinx were so insanely dominant that nothing else really got played.

Quinn is a roaming lethality-crit-fuck-you-melee-champion monstrosity that dominated top, mid, and jungle and is still incredibly unfun or fair to face, and abuses pretty much any OP AD build that comes along. Graves is a complete embarassment to the balance team, and while I acknowledge he had a boring kit before, his new one is a disturbing testament to both damage and power creep. He obliterates anything that comes close, abuses lifesteal like no one else, and can even nuke you from a screen away. Caitlyn is......Caitlyn is complete bullshit. Corki became a monstrous hybrid carry and continued on to be the best mid laner in the game even after repeated nerfs. Kog'maw's rework was so terrible that it had to be reverted, the only live rework to ever have done so. MF's rework wasn't all that bad on paper but succeeded in giving her so much free damage that she sees actual, professional success as a support. And, her ult one-shots teams. The mini-touchups on the other ADCs were nonfactors for everyone but Trist, Twitch, and Vayne: the latter two becoming even more oppressive than before. Rift Herald is a gimped objective that requires way more investment than what you get out of it.

The new items introduced and the tweaks to existing ones only served to massively increase ADC damage and skew favor towards them in pretty much any circumstance. Crit, armor pen, attack speed - it all went up. ADCs even got an item that allows them to get 30% fucking CDR, when they are the class that arguably should have the worst access to it (since their auto-attacks are so strong). The minion and tower changes were dumb as fuck from the start and set in motion the snowbally, stat-check meta we have today - the fact that a surrender@15 option even has to be considered is just sad, really sad. I fucking loved taking Clairvoyance (on Bard) and Clarity (on Vel'Koz back when he was mana hungry) in certain cases and I still miss them. RIP to Flask, Elixir of Ruin, Zephyr, Poacher's and Ranger's, and of course Stealth Ward and Mana Potion. You guys will always be missed.

The MYMU did a few small good things, but it also fucked up balance royally in the vein of its predecessors as well. The elemental dragons were cool for a second before you realized how much in free stats they gave and how stupid Ocean and FIre were (Earth helped fuck towers even more too). Instead of helping combat snowball, they only exacerbate it. The new items aside from the overtuned Morellos, the injustice done to Grail, and the additional nerf to Zhonya's did nothing to help mages and the hextech items are too niche and gold-inefficient to truly abuse. The shift for mages from mana to mana regen was a huge slap in the face.

Vlad, Malz, Swain, and Syndra were busted as hell for months after the update. Malz and Vlad in particular continue to be balance nightmares Riot has no clue what to do with. The problems Veigar and Annie had weren't addressed (hint, they still blow you up with little to no counterplay and then die, but Annie at least got 40% damage reduction), Fiddles is garbage now after one patch in the spotlight, Xerath hasn't really changed at all and Ziggs is Ziggs. Zyra is still a complete pain wherever she is. Vel'Koz was balanced before being touched but got his damage shot through the roof and is pretty sleeper OP now. Cassiopeia was arguably the only decent update.

Plants are just dumb and give too much hidden power. They are completely unnecessary and I'm still wondering which Riot employee came up with them in a coffee-induced stupor. Lethality is a complete and utter mistake and has broke the game for patches now. Talon, aside from his disgusting level 2, is arguably the only successful rework. Ekko had his most glaring problem fixed but is still a mistake of a champion. Rengar and Kha'Zix are disgusting and so was LeBlanc for patch after patch before she got gutted. Akali was unjustly nerfed but her design is so ridiculously unhealthy that she needs more changes. Zed is still Zed, except now he has Lethality to abuse. Fizz and Shaco seemed weak at first but now they are pretty strong, even more so for the latter. Fizz still jumps on you from a whole lane away and bursts the hell out of you, and Shaco still pops up out of nowhere to shank your ass, except now there are no pink wards (hello massive indirect buff to Vayne who was already overperforming!). Twitch was abitrarily buffed for some reason as well. Katarina went from a pubstomper that was bad at high elos to a hypermobile monstrosity that crushes at all.

The slow and unexplained removal of vision options and increased availability of vision denial is troubling, as is the obsessive and disturbing fixation by Riot to see how far they can break a champion before nerfing them to the ground, or leaving certain power picks untouched while gimping others intentionally.

This post wasn't a big rant to bitch about reworks (well, yeah, it sort of was). It's a cautionary tale to Riot. None of the class reworks have been objective successes. They have all broken the champions they set about to fix even further and heavily gimped others. Plants, lethality, RNG dragons, tower and minion changes, ADC itemization, removal of vision options, removal of sustain for anyone that isn't AD, and edge of night were all huge balance mistakes. 60% of updated champions are even more problematic now than they were before and 40% either are gimped or weren't even changed at all.

Do not fuck up the tank rework. I hate Trump memes as much as the next guy but it is seriously time to Make League Great Again. Do not give Sejuani three AoE hard CCs like you did Galio, don't turn Maokai into a tanky Zyra, don't make Zac's E global and his Q a displacement like we know you want to. Gut penetration options on items and move them into champion kits. Buff defensive itemization, especially armor. Tone down oppressive power picks that have run the meta for months now. Do not introduce unneccessary additions to the game that only create more problems than they are supposed to solve, and do not stonewall our protests against them if you do. Listen to your community and help rebuild this game from the pit of power creep it has fallen into.

360 Comments

Ahristocats83 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-14T19:36:07.561+0000)

The only 'successful' part of that rework is Darius, and not successful in that it correctly solved his problems or made him more healthy to face - no, just that he got a massive net buff and a huge boost to power creep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3zpI0iyTkg

poeple have no fcking clue what old darius was

"can't lose lane if he is competent" you mean darius played better than you? i'm sorry but you deserve lose then, before old darius requiered 0 skill and even if he was incompetent his old base damage that were insane without needing the bonus AD from 5 stacks+instant Q applying a stack of passive even if the blade didn't hit+insane attack speed made a silver 5 darius able to facerol without needing to think on anything and kill someone in 2 sec

darius rework was a masterpiece as they made a champion that everyone thought would be impossible to exist in league healthy

THE RlVER KlNG11 votes

I'm going to have to disagree with you there new darius is by no means a balance masterpiece

I only played old darius a few times so im sure you have more experience than me

but new darius is a balance mistake

Ahristocats20 votes

you just said something with 0 argument and talk like "i said this i'm right you're wrong"

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

I wasn't there for old Darius... But is there really a need to argue with some1 saying

It's pretty much impossible for a competent Darius to lose lane now

Darius is a noobstomper (this dosn't mean is useless in higher elo) don't be surprised your pick tilt this board so much^^

Anyway a Darius without kills is same as a Darius loosing his lane (like a Panth) in most case.

Ahristocats11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2017-03-14T21:06:52.021+0000)

I wasn't there for old Darius... But is there really a need to argue with some1 saying

Darius is a noobstomper (this dosn't mean is useless in higher elo) don't be surprised your pick tilt this board so much^^

yeah i know the massive downvote i'm getting when new darius is objectively healthier than the old one my lolking shows that i played darius at least 50 times each seasons when i played this game

old darius was in no-way better than the new one, new one is only a problem in low elo where people aren't smart enough to play against his new weaknesses

ShadowParker14 votes

Why were you down voted so much. You're not wrong.

Ahristocats8 votes

i don't know, probably people thinking that old darius was better

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

We gotchu.

Because of your general insight, not your ship. :P

Ahristocats3 votes

my ship!? i have to rename i don't ship sona and rubick! though sona x rubick is the coolest name i can think about right now :p

TyrekGoldenspear6 votes

Hmm.

I got it! Dr. Sona X Morde!

Malicious Metal11 votes

I dig it.

crippler3810 votes

Yorick he does too.

THE RlVER KlNG6 votes

yah because no one ever said that?

I don't care about old Darius, new Darius is binary as hell and oppressive for melees to face in lane and out, and it's flat-out ridiculous for you to call him a balance masterpiece

CyberBalt4 votes

I don't know about other melees, but the two melees I main (Mordekaiser and Singed) are perfectly capable of laning vs Darius. I know far worse lane bullies ...

THE RlVER KlNG8 votes

Singed's whole game play shtick is to run around and not interact with his lane opponent in the slightest outside of the occasional fling.

Morde is designed to stand still and trade with a melee considering he gets huge amounts of shielding simply from doing so. Darius has a 55% winrate against Morde as is but he is your main so gj.

AirKingNeo5 votes

Maokai beats Darius in lane even. Darius doesn't beat many tanks until mid game.

dEAdbUs5 votes

Lol wut, Dari can outtrade most toplane tanks.

SpecterVonBaren7 votes

{quoted}

Darius doesn't beat many tanks until mid game.

What? Tanks are Darius's favorite, super slow for him to hit with his Q and easy to catch up to to kill.

THE RlVER KlNG9 votes

I fail to see how a Darius outplays anybody? Cut that bullshit right now. How does Darius 'play better' than someone when his kit is designed to give him the advantage over a lane opponent from level one?

he requires zero mechanical skill whatsoever outside of aiming E in the right direction, it's barely a skillshot and has a busted-ass hitbox just like every other pull; the only decisions he has to make is whether he should initiate a trade just like any other top laner

He has two point and clicks, a point-blank, and as mentioned, his E. People seem to think every top laner is Riven, someone who can freely jump in and out of a fight with Darius. News flash: they're not. If Darius pulls you in and starts slowing you for eternity than you either have to fight him (and get dunked) or run away (losing the trade, farm, and the wave), whereupon he can freely beat you to death. There is nothing fun or interactive about playing against a Darius in lane, I suggest you try it out sometime.

Darius is the walking, talking, breathing definition of a stat-check. The only Juggernaut that comes even close to being healthy (and even then I don't use that word lightly) is Illaoi, because the majority of her kit can be dodged, she has zero utility outside of a spirit pull (which can be blocked), and is 100% reliant on a good ultimate, which is melee range.

Ahristocats12 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:37:49.357+0000)

I fail to see how a Darius outplays anybody? Cut that bullshit right now. How does Darius 'play better' than someone when his kit is designed to give him the advantage over a lane opponent from level one?

by not getting hit by his Q dodging his Q will: -reduce the damage of his Q by 65% -prevent you to gain one more passive stack and it's important becuse of his low attack speed -prevents him from healing

by trading efficiently with darius aka not trading too much time with him just do burst, disengaging when he has noxian might darius can't handle short trades, his attack speed combined with the time he needs for Q AND the fact that his damage was nerfed before he has 5 stacks allows an oppenent to fight darius in a short time unlike before

so how exactly does he have a lane adventage? OLD DARIUS COULDN'T BE GANKED AS HIS PASSIVE GAVE HIM 10% BONUS MS IF HE HIT 2 PEOPLE WITH Q new darius can be ganked easily if you don't let him hit you with Q, and even then as much as you have CC he can't use his Q to heal and can't escape

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:37:49.357+0000)

he requires zero mechanical skill whatsoever outside of aiming E in the right direction, it's barely a skillshot and has a busted-ass hitbox just like every other pull; the only decisions he has to make is whether he should initiate a trade just like any other top laner

the hitbox has been nerfed and the range of his E is 475 right now, as before it used to be 525 AND IT HIT YOU IF YOU LEFT THE AREA, get it? if you flashed/dashed/walked away of his E during the delay you were still hooked

So yeah, again a master piece of the rework allowing counterplay=dodging E

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:37:49.357+0000)

He has two point and clicks, a point-blank, and as mentioned, his E.

So? the damage has been nerfed unless you stay an eternity next to him to give him 5 stacks+noxian might bonus AD

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:37:49.357+0000)

If Darius pulls you in and starts slowing you for eternity than you either have to fight him (and get dunked)

If you picked janna toplane sure, if you picked a decent toplane you're going to outdamage darius until he has 5 stacks Rumble can burst him in a matter of a second with ult+Q+E, if you don't believe me watch dyrus playing darius against rumble Riven is riven Fiora can dodge his Q with her Q and parrey his ult as well as being the queen of extended trade

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:37:49.357+0000)

or run away (losing the trade, farm, and the wave),

duration of his W slow has been reduced to one second, cd has been increased, tell me how he can slow you for an eternity

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:37:49.357+0000)

whereupon he can freely beat you to death. There is nothing fun or interactive about playing against a Darius in lane, I suggest you try it out sometime.

lol i already tried it, and it was with renekton, i destroyed the shit out of the dude whenever someone steals my main i pick renekton because i'm bad at riven

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=00060003,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:37:49.357+0000)

Darius is the walking, talking, breathing definition of a stat-check.

he stat checked you because you failed to outplay him, but don't feel bad i never saw a low elo managing to win against darius, i saw tydal tyrant destroying him with gp but the dude plays like a diamond player

THE RlVER KlNG7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=000600030000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:06:37.097+0000)

by not getting hit by his Q dodging his Q will: -reduce the damage of his Q by 65% -prevent you to gain one more passive stack and it's important becuse of his low attack speed -prevents him from healing

you can dodge Tahm Kench's Q doesn't stop him from being a stat-check in melee range

there I can acknowledge my main has problems, unlike you

Tahm Kench is fun and I think he is a lot more fair than many other melee bruisers but that doesn't make him a balance masterpiece like you keep spouting

Unlike Tahm Kench, however, Darius can move while casting it, as well as being AoE and going through minions. It's not as if Darius can outrade you melee range without his Q since he has some of the highest base stats in the game.

If you are mindlessly using your Q when your opponent has a mobility spell up or when it looks like it won't land then I can't help you

by trading efficiently with darius aka not trading too much time with him just do burst, disengaging when he has noxian might darius can't handle short trades, his attack speed combined with the time he needs for Q AND the fact that his damage was nerfed before he has 5 stacks allows an oppenent to fight darius in a short time unlike before

so either I let him pull me and then blow resources to fight him and then be forced to run away when he gets noxian might (letting him ult me anyways), or run up to him, then run away and get pulled back in, guaranteeing a kill? that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard and I post on the LoL boards. Darius' laning pattern is ridculously toxic in that you are forced to play around the fact that he gets to automatically shit on you just because you traded with him.

so how exactly does he have a lane adventage? OLD DARIUS COULDN'T BE GANKED AS HIS PASSIVE GAVE HIM 10% BONUS MS IF HE HIT 2 PEOPLE WITH Q new darius can be ganked easily if you don't let him hit you with Q, and even then as much as you have CC he can't use his Q to heal and can't escape

WOW 10% MOVEMENT SPEED DOES THAT MEAN POPPY, HECARIM, GAREN, AHRI, MISS FORTUNE, NAMI, UDYR, BLITZCRANK, EKKO, DRAVEN, JAYCE, KARMA, KAYLE, NUNU, RUMBLE, TRUNDLE, TALIYAH, ZILEAN ALL CANNOT BE GANKED EVER BECAUSE THEY CAN GIVE THEMSELVES 10% MOVEMENT SPEED WOW SUCH NEW INFO

any champion can be ganked, that's not counterplay.......

the hitbox has been nerfed and the range of his E is 475 right now, as before it used to be 525 AND IT HIT YOU IF YOU LEFT THE AREA, get it? if you flashed/dashed/walked away of his E during the delay you were still hooked

So yeah, again a master piece of the rework allowing counterplay=dodging E

maybe don't give a juggernaut an AoE pull in the first place? yeah masterpiece of a champion a juggernaut with AoE CC

If you picked janna toplane sure, if you picked a decent toplane you're going to outdamage darius until he has 5 stacks

yeah because the guy with the 4th highest base ad, the third highest base health, third highest armor, and being perhaps the most effective user of black cleaver in the game has a hard time outrading someone? what are you even trying to say?

Rumble can burst him in a matter of a second with ult+Q+E, if you don't believe me watch dyrus playing darius against rumble Riven is riven Fiora can dodge his Q with her Q and parrey his ult as well as being the queen of extended trade

yes i acknowledge that fiora counters darius but fiora counters pretty much everyone riven still loses to darius since she can't trade with him as for rumble, you're saying the dot king can burst darius in under a second?

duration of his W slow has been reduced to one second, cd has been increased, tell me how he can slow you for an eternity

two slows, great user of frozen mallet, great user of righteous glory, amazing user of phage, targeted leap on ult, AoE pull

lol i already tried it, and it was with renekton, i destroyed the shit out of the dude whenever someone steals my main i pick renekton because i'm bad at riven

good for you, I destroy tahm kench in lane too whenever I see him (hint: never)

he stat checked you because you failed to outplay him, but don't feel bad i never saw a low elo managing to win against darius, i saw tydal tyrant destroying him with gp but the dude plays like a diamond player

Damn, I can even hear the arrogance in your voice there, sorry I don't play in y'alls little club where you jerk off to each other's desire for self-aggrandizement through upvotes and bad memes. Bring up the rank card when your argument actually makes sense.

Regardless, it's almost as if Gangplank is the acme of passive and un-interactive gameplay that farms for twenty minutes and then crits everyone to death. Don't feel bad, though.

Ahristocats9 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

you can dodge Tahm Kench's Q doesn't stop him from being a stat-check in melee range

there I can acknowledge my main has problems, unlike you

you didn't acknowledge anything, just stated something that everyone knew tahm Q in melee range is impossible to dodge saying "you can dodge tk Q" doesn't make sens

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000) Tahm Kench is fun and I think he is a lot more fair than many other melee bruisers but that doesn't make him a balance masterpiece like you keep spouting

how is this related to darius?

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

Unlike Tahm Kench, however, Darius can move while casting it, as well as being AoE and going through minions.

and you can also move while he casts it, it's skill

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

It's not as if Darius can outrade you melee range without his Q since he has some of the highest base stats in the game.

nop, in laning phase he doesn't have jackshit just his Q and a trash attack speed and then at 5 stacks he gets bonus AD unlike before where without doing anything he had insane damage and impossible to dodge Q

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

If you are mindlessly using your Q when your opponent has a mobility spell up

so you want to not do anything and get out-traded by your trash attack speed?

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

so either I let him pull me and then blow resources to fight him and then be forced to run away when he gets noxian might (letting him ult me anyways), or run up to him, then run away and get pulled back in, guaranteeing a kill?

you fight him before he has noxian might and destroy him, and dodge Q if you can't dodge Q because of your champion you got out-picked

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard and I post on the LoL boards. Darius' laning pattern is ridculously toxic in that you are forced to play around the fact that he gets to automatically shit on you just because you traded with him.

yes because you said so

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000) WOW 10% MOVEMENT SPEED DOES THAT MEAN POPPY, HECARIM, GAREN, AHRI, MISS FORTUNE, NAMI, UDYR, BLITZCRANK, EKKO, DRAVEN, JAYCE, KARMA, KAYLE, NUNU, RUMBLE, TRUNDLE, TALIYAH, ZILEAN ALL CANNOT BE GANKED EVER BECAUSE THEY CAN GIVE THEMSELVES 10% MOVEMENT SPEED WOW SUCH NEW INFO

dafuq? back then junglers weren't as busted as this and toplaners had 2 more levels than junglers darius could just walk out of a gank with his passive by pressing Q on 2 people and then outran them with MS quints

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000) any champion can be ganked, that's not counterplay.......

some can be more ganked than the others, jungle pressure is the only reason darius isn't picked in lcs else his strengths are great but shutting him down in competition is too easy

so... yes it's a counterplay darius is going to get destroyed more than jayce by ganks

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

maybe don't give a juggernaut an AoE pull in the first place? yeah masterpiece of a champion a juggernaut with AoE CC

hearing it, it's as if darius had a 1000 range 500 width pull

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000) yeah because the guy with the 4th highest base ad, the third highest base health, third highest armor, and being perhaps the most effective user of black cleaver in the game has a hard time outrading someone? what are you even trying to say?

maybe because he has no adventage over picks like hecarim vi or camille, so they made him having more base stats? statik already explained it that if darius had his old stats he would be an immobile squishy target too easy to be killed by everyone

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

riven still loses to darius since she can't trade with him

i lol'ed, she has x30 his damage without waiting anything

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000) as for rumble, you're saying the dot king can burst darius in under a second?

try it yourself, it's not an instant burst, but your life will drop in 2 seconds

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

great user of frozen mallet,

i can't take this seriously

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000) great user of righteous glory

better than frozen mallet, but still has a cd and you can CC him while he's going into you

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000) , amazing user of phage,

if he stops hitting for 1 sec he's going to lose completly the bonus ms in teamfight

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000) targeted leap on ult,

100 range dash, 2 much 4 me

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

AoE pull

so what's going to happen once you get hooked? cause what happens with me when i played darius is the ADC walking out the support ccs me and i don't have anything to catch the adc for a long time A VERY LONG TIME

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=0006000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T23:50:20.459+0000)

Damn, I can even hear the arrogance in your voice there

no i'm serious, i know that darius is too good in low elo i don't blame you for that when you see at the entire reply i wrote you don't expect people to know all of that to beat darius

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Shuyin17859 votes

except now there are no pink wards (hello massive indirect buff to Vayne and Twitch, who were already overperforming!)

I would like to point out your ignorance on Twitch, he has camouflage just like Eve thus gets spotted by Control Wards.

THE RlVER KlNG19 votes

cool thanks

ModAcademy Kayn30 votes

Class updates have never been about "Fixing things". It's always been about diversifying the reason to pick X champion over X champion. Why play X champ when Y champ does X champs Job but better? That's always been one of the major reasons for the Class Reworks.

THE RlVER KlNG6 votes

sure, but when half those champions turn out to be ridiculously strong and half too weak then you have a problem

ModAcademy Kayn9 votes

Woah, it's almost like, that's a Balance problem, and not what the Rework team is completely responsible for.

Ex: Graves before the Meta switched to Favor him again

Malicious Metal28 votes

Legions of Morde mains? We got like two or three well known Mordekaiser mains here but that's it.

But yeah, the class reworks have a pretty bad track record of actually fixing stuff. That's why they've been reducing the number of reworks, we only get THREE tank reworks this time around.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

By legions of Morde Mains he really means you and all your smurfs. :3

An Undead brat9 votes

Well compared to other unpopular champions you are a crowd.

50000000000000003 votes

Aatrox mains came out in droves once, and then left again...

An Undead brat15 votes

Aatrox mains are like him in the lore, lol

deadlychuck18 votes

And don't forget. Marksmen Update item 3046 item 3085 item 3087 item 3094 Stackable

Assassin Update item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 Stackable

Mage Update item 3030 item 3146 item 3152 Mutually exclusive unique passives... you know, despite being the weakest class item set even if they weren't

Void Kaiju2 votes

I mean the difference is hextech offers insane utility on their actives. a champ with 3 hextech items would be p much inescapable. Gunblade heavy slow, GLP800 heavy slow, then protobelt dash, on top of the already potent damages help by mages would make them monstrous and nearly impossible to shut down. You can shut down an adc even if they are ahead and have those items if you get on them as anybody who does damage.

Duskblades passive literally relies on lethality to even be decent, so its built around the others stacking. Ghostblade and edge offer alright utility but i find after the nerfs they're much less oppressive than they were.

Also you can't stack the passives from rfc and shiv. you get one or the other. its a huge waste of gold.

deadlychuck4 votes

They really don't though... they offer moderate scaling actives (about equal to that of thunderlords), with either a small dash, aoe slow, or targeted slow.

These aren't exactly insane in respect to utility. The dash can't go over walls, the slows are no more powerful than the shield or movement speed granted by item 3814 and item 3142. Not to mention that they are designed in such a niche way, which outright fails to sync with a large portion of the class pool. Making them even harder to utilize, even when you look past the mediocre stats and insubstantial utility.

Their stat distribution is terrible compared to that of the other items which provide almost complete offensive stats, the only exception being item 3814, and instead force you to either buy Health or AD. Two stats which mages don't want, and act as nothing more than gold sink for 800 gold on item 3152 item 3030 and 1,400 on item 3146.

Which do those other items provide that their respective class doesn't want? When do the other items create periods of power stagnation, where they are spending gold on getting stats that they can't properly utilize, for a final item which they can?

And another question, why do both set of items introduced for assassins and marksmen, provide a form of hybrid damage, item 3147 true damage item 3087 item 3094 magic damage, yet the AP versions, still produce the same damage type, that the mage already has? Rather than offering some form of mixed damage, which makes it more potent.

Nogrim10 votes

im fully prepared to retire my rammus main, i've just accepted the fact they will likely butcher everything i like about him and either make him useless, or so ridiculously overpowered the following patch(s) will make him so.

ive played since the first or second season, and rammus is the last of my favourite champs so once hes taken out i dont think ill have much reason to come back.

EROTIC RAID BOSS10 votes

wut, I think overall the adc update was really good, especially the item changes they made, like the zeal items.

the assassin update was objectively very successful too.

while there have been a few problems here and there, I don't think its fair to call the reworks failures. most have been overall net gains. especially in making champions more distinct and more healthy.

While they aren't perfect reworks, especially mordekaiser's, I think pretty much every kit improved game health except kog'maw's.

THE RlVER KlNG14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:02:53.251+0000) While they aren't perfect reworks, especially mordekaiser's, I think pretty much every kit improved game health except kog'maw's.

Caitlyn Darius Graves Katarina KhazixLeblanc Malzahar Quinn Rengar Twitch Vladimir

https://media.giphy.com/media/UvwI1X7XkbXq0/giphy.gif

AirKingNeo17 votes

Mr. Castle, the following kits you listed became healthier.

Caitlyn Unique and has counterplay. Poorly balanced but well executed.

Darius People already explained this to you. More balanced, more counterplay, good mid game champion with some good matchups for laning.

Graves Made unique from 2nd Lucian.

Katarina Viable in every tier of play, counterplay enabled, only problem is infinite gap closing.

Khazix Less 1 shot and more 2-3 shot. Still was broken but had more counterplay.

Rengar While poorly balanced and still broken as fuck, the new Rengar is definitely more viable and healthy in all tiers of play.

Vladimir is less feast famine than he used to be.

Twitch His Q was nerfed, his W buffed. ???

The following reworks just didn't do anything:

Malzahar Press R

Leblanc Same shit but with waveclear

Quinn Same shit but actually viable

Xonra12 votes

Yeah, no

  • Cait is way less healthy
  • Darius was so broken he was actually picked at worlds with VERY little practice, and even Balls got a penta on him
  • Graves is effing broken and has been since he was changed
  • Kat wasn't made healthier, just different. Closest to it on your list there
  • Kha is not healthier.
  • Rengar is stronger, and got a free QSS in his kit when he was changed. How is that healthier?
  • Vlad was full on bs broken strong for as much as he was even tankier and did more damage. He isn't NOW, but that is because Riot either has him too strong or "why am I playing Vlad?" in balance.
  • Twitch was NOT made more healthy
  • Malz was so derp he was jungling. He is still far from healthy. You are smoking crack to even suggest that.
  • LMAO! No. LB is full on perma banned in pro play, and she is FAR from healthy let alone healthier.
  • Quinn...just no. She became even more cancer cheese than she was.
AirKingNeo4 votes

In what way is Cait less healthy? If I say high range zoning marksmen you think Caitlyn and maybe Jhin. She fits her design. Balance =/= kit healthy.

He was broken off numbers. What does that have to do with healthy design?

GRAVES BROKEN ISN'T SAYING WHETHER HIS DESIGN WAS BAD OR NOT.

Kat was definitly made healthier. For the first time in years Kat was a meta champion.

Kha was healthier, not by a lot, but still healthier.

Just because his W was poorly balanced doesn't make new Rengar bad design.

About vlad: BALANCED AND HEALTHY DESIGN ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!

Twitch wasn't even reworked. He got small adjustments as he wasn't part of the Big 4. Explain how he's "broken" due to such changes?

Malz being OP jungle doesn't change his design. He's still an R button, hence a failed rework. Leblanc I said was the same broken thing and you need to actually read what I said or shut the heck up. Quinn just does the same shit only better. Read what I said.

Beacon Academy5 votes

Oi I can't let that go... Only a shit Malzahar would ult just to ult.

Pre-rework was all about managing QWE while weaving in and out. You saved R for enemies that survive the teamfight or to protect your ADC

Using Q on enemies while they're busy fighting your team for that 3s silence nuke

W like a sunfire for your frontline, to kill an assassin diving for your ADC, or to catch someone trying to run cause instant damage after cast

E for the targets your team is focusing so it will have bounce potential

Plus any Voidlings spawned could walk in like a boss via aa or E

Salson3 votes

Didn't all of them get a much higher skill ceiling and as a result became more fun? Though it did kind of broke them

THE RlVER KlNG13 votes

so fun = balanced now?

Chaos Milk Tea5 votes

The mage update and following patches did wonders for mage itemization in terms of trade offs and varying build paths. Its pretty diverse now save for the blemish that is Morello. Here's hoping they address it at the next big update.

Also Vlad is healthier than he has ever been. Fixed? No. Worse? By no means.

Handy Sandy 27 votes

{quoted}

The mage update and following patches did wonders for mage itemization in terms of trade offs and varying build paths.

Build item 3165 item 3020 item 3135 item 3089item 3116 every single game with the option of item 3001 item 3027 with the option of item 3040 on like 2 mages

CapnMorganFr3man5 votes
Valor Bot26 votes

Attack the argument, not the person making the argument. Someone's rank has little to no bearing on their ability to make a sound case against the state of class reworks, or the game in general. Not that I'm saying OP's argument is sound, just trying to promote healthy discussion because bringing up irrelevant details like "Silver 2 mmr" gets us nowhere.

VexingRaven2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valor Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjclmLay,comment-id=001c0001,timestamp=2017-03-14T22:39:28.268+0000)

Attack the argument, not the person making the argument. Someone's rank has little to no bearing on their ability to make a sound case against the state of class reworks, or the game in general. Not that I'm saying OP's argument is sound, just trying to promote healthy discussion because bringing up irrelevant details like "Silver 2 mmr" gets us nowhere.

THANK. YOU. I'm so tired of the implication that you need to an LCS player to understand design and overall game health.

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