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Shaco Q is now garbage

alfavhunter··5 votes·1,249 views

it offers no damage, yet costs a lot of mana for what it does and its lower level ranks are absolute garbage

i understand they wanted to weaken jungle shaco early game and ability to insta kill people from stealth

yet, the nerf forced the most prominent win rate build (bruiser) to now be the only viable option

why?

its safety

the Q nerf didnt just remove shacos damage from it, it nerfed his safety with longer CD on Q until it is maxed, with no mana cost change as well?

shacos Q should have had a mana cost reduction considering how much of its power was removed from it

there are 2 options

reduce the mana cost a bit (50 at all ranks instead of 60 or a 60/55/50/45/40 mana cost)

or give it some other benefit like

increased movespeed when running toward an enemy champion that is not facing you while you are stealth-ed (better chase, no benefit to escape or damage other than easier backstabs on fleeing target)

make backstabing an enemy champion from stealth give double CDR from 2.5 to 5 seconds (forcing skilled play for better CD effectiveness on Q, and doesn't offer better escape because he has to use it offensively for bonus CDR, but it does offer better chase and get in get out mechanics)

or make it so if he Q backstabs a target his boxes will focus that target over their current priority IF they are in range for 5 seconds (doesnt increase damage just offers more control on his dps, and again its DPS not burst)

point being they either need to lower the mana cost on shacos Q or give it some other NON-BURST DAMAGE effect

16 Comments

Wet Dryman5 votes

There's no point in talking about Shaco on boards as people are heavily biased and passionately hate that champion. No arguments will get to them.

Tyto Mors1 votes

when the low mechanical assassin can kill you pretty quickly from stealth, people rage. yet forget that the only reason that shaco can then get out is by planning an escape route with boxes ahead of time. and with red trinket, the boxes activate when they are revealed making chasing him way easier.

alfavhunter1 votes

{quoted}

when the low mechanical assassin can kill you pretty quickly from stealth, people rage. yet forget that the only reason that shaco can then get out is by planning an escape route with boxes ahead of time. and with red trinket, the boxes activate when they are revealed making chasing him way easier.

he has a low mechanics for getting in and killing sure

high mechanics for escaping tho, and even then his damage isnt nearly as bad as other assassins, its the on use effects and thunderlords that get him to a point he can actually assassinate

unless he jumps one someone who is already half dead he wont kill them unless severly ahead or they built nothing in defensive items

Tyto Mors1 votes

agree with you on pretty much everything. maybe not high mechanics, but definitely mid tier mechanics and good planning for escapes.

but for the most part, even some of the squishies without any defensive items could survive, particularly those with mobility. someone like jinx or twitch(someone with pretty much no instant mobilities or hard cc) might die since they have nothing that can react fast enough to stop the shaco. but the thing ive noticed is that for highest dmg output, some will use ult instantly, but because of that puff of smoke(do they see the smoke when your invis? i havent played him much since they gutted ad assassin), they'll be able to create distance between them.

alfavhunter1 votes

{quoted}

agree with you on pretty much everything. maybe not high mechanics, but definitely mid tier mechanics and good planning for escapes.

but for the most part, even some of the squishies without any defensive items could survive, particularly those with mobility. someone like jinx or twitch(someone with pretty much no instant mobilities or hard cc) might die since they have nothing that can react fast enough to stop the shaco. but the thing ive noticed is that for highest dmg output, some will use ult instantly, but because of that puff of smoke(do they see the smoke when your invis? i havent played him much since they gutted ad assassin), they'll be able to create distance between them.

the reason i say high mechanics for escaping is because you cant rely on boxes to get you out due to red trinket, you cant rely on using Q again as its CD is to long if you didnt build bruiser you will be dead b4 the CD is back if the enemy team is at all smart

mid teir mechanics for escaping when vs people who dont use your counter items like sweeper and control ward its high tier mechanics to escape vs people that do, usually this means blocking skill shots with W or placing one down that it will still fear them with them using control wards and sweeper

the dificulty in the escape depends on your build and the enemy teams compitence

Tyto Mors1 votes

very true. didnt think that was high mechanic tho, i thought that was more along the line of advanced game knowledge.

alfavhunter1 votes

{quoted}

very true. didnt think that was high mechanic tho, i thought that was more along the line of advanced game knowledge.

think of it this way, he is a single target assassin that has the option of usuing his mobility to get into a fight or out of a fight, rarely both as he will die to fast (assuming team fights) while other assassins have mobility or non counterable CC to escape or both

shaco CC is counterable, hes noticably imobale for an assassin, and doesnt have an inate tankiness

if they made his Q CD reset on a kill or assist then he would be in line with other assassins in terms of mobility even if it is conditional

another thing they could give to shaco is that decieve stealth lasts twice as long as long as he doesnt move after using Q, similar to a teemo stealth

example

shaco stealth lasts for X seconds, this duration is increased by .75 second for every second shaco stands still during stealth up to 0/1/2/3/4 seconds, this effect will not occur if shaco is performing any action other than standing idle (so no free recall with Q+B shinanigans unless you have baron)

this would give him more outplay potential without overloading his kit because people will usually assume he ran somewhere, but now its possable to

the point being of this thread tho is they should add something back to his Q in the form of non damage utility OR lower the mana cost

Tyto Mors1 votes

i agree with pretty much everything. but i rather they give a bit more dmg to his other abilities since they flat out removed q dmg, instead of giving him more utility. ill take either one tho, just a preference of more dmg so i dont fall off so badly late game when not playing bruiser shaco

LyingOnLine4 votes

Oh noes! Now instead of being an instant flash, unbreakable stealth, and damage ability, now it's only an instant flash and unbreakable stealth? Riot, you fiends!

And how dare you make it cost 60 mana at all ranks! Were there any sense of fairness to you, it would cost 0 mana! Woe, woe to the fair Shaco players, that they must suffer the misfortune of having an ability that costs 60 mana!

Gildarzt2 votes

Well since you are an assasin and only had two instant damage skills, now you only have one, gj.

If they continue, they will nerf E and shaco will be the first asassin with no damage at any skill :P

alfavhunter1 votes

{quoted}

Well since you are an assasin and only had two instant damage skills, now you only have one, gj.

If they continue, they will nerf E and shaco will be the first asassin with no damage at any skill :P

sadly it wasnt even shacoes damage that really made the issue

it was having thunderlords+onuse damage item/onhit damage item that did it. about 30% of shacoes burst damage came from things that werent shaco. exc. hextech item+thunderlords or trinity+titanic hydra+thunderlords

shacos actual burst is pretty low for an assassin, the 'issue' was it being from stealth and thats fine and all, but if Q loses all damage it should have gained some form of benefit as well, even if that benefit is just a lower mana cost because the actual value of the ability per mana used got decimated with the change

i dont think they should put damage back in his Q, i think they should find ways to raise his DPS or dps reliability and a way to do that is to make Q interact with his W which are purely a form of DPS.

making his Q mark the target to be the priority target of his boxes would raise his dps for premeditated ambushes not his burst, because boxes have an arming time

i also think they need to adjust how the boxes hp works to be similar to zyra plants because ive had MANY instances of my boxes instantly dieing without the enemy even realizing they killed them, just from passive aoe, like riven Qs, LB dash, exc. (example make boxes have 3 hp and take 1 damage per AA or any damage taken, but take double damage from larger monsters and triple damage from epic monsters and towers, this change would make them not instantly die [but still die quickly] from team fights or champs with any form of aoe, but still have similar survivability vs monsters and minions would kill it quicker]

but regardless Q should have gained something when it lost 100% of its damage, shaco is the only assassin that only has ONE bility that deals instant damage

W has a delay from arming time and is also easily countered through a FREE item or aoe damage, R only instant damage is AAs which are dealing 75% AA damage, Q has no damage and E is the only true 'use ability it does damage' he has.

the intentional gutting of assassin shaco is just to obvious, and is made sad when you realize it was BRUISER shaco that had the best win rate

Gildarzt1 votes

Agree except the box part, you can stack them and they only vulnerable on the two seconds they raise invisibility.

I'll do something with his Q and E, your idea with the Q is good, mark for boxes and maybe the clone, maybe increase the rest of his damage over X seconds would be nice too.

For the E I'll just rework to a short range / low cd dash (like Ekko or something like that). Something that allow him to "dance" on the teamfight :P

alfavhunter1 votes

{quoted}

Agree except the box part, you can stack them and they only vulnerable on the two seconds they raise invisibility.

I'll do something with his Q and E, your idea with the Q is good, mark for boxes and maybe the clone, maybe increase the rest of his damage over X seconds would be nice too.

For the E I'll just rework to a short range / low cd dash (like Ekko or something like that). Something that allow him to "dance" on the teamfight :P

boxes die exstreamly easily, and are easily countered through a free item

they should be a little harder to kill

ive had a talon (that wasnt fed at the time) use his Q and it would kill my boxes and he didnt even use it to hit the boxes, ive had zeds do the same thing, anyone with minor aoe can easily kill a group of his boxes, made easier with control ward or sweeper lense, they should have more effective hp vs aoe

Dracocrash3 votes

I agree, they should have removed the stealth from his Q and gutted his E as well.

datfatguy2 votes

Because Riot "LOVE COUNTERPLAY!" so they added some to Shaco.

alfavhunter1 votes

{quoted}

Because Riot "LOVE COUNTERPLAY!" so they added some to Shaco.

this makes me laugh because most of his damage comes from backstabs (it has the easiest counter play there is. look at shaco), on use items [not exclusive to shaco], and thunderlords. he has plenty of counter play that severely reduces his damage output (20-30%) by just looking at him, the issue is more so in the items available that ALL champions can use and thunderlords again that ALL champions can use

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