Riot's New Balance Strategy
Let 10 champions have win rates of 55%+.
Let 10 champions have win rates of 45%-.
There, they balance each other out!
105 Comments
RiotRiot Sotere74 votesDamn. We're at 50%. Not too shabby.
While those two stats are not the only ones we focus on, I still think they might be exaggerating the situation. Significantly.
ScumbagZed20 votesFrist off, hilarious response, but when will graves receive a nerf? He currently holds the highest win rates in top and jungle and near the highest in ADC, and yet 4 patches after the adc reworks he has not been toned down. Is there a reason you guys think he is balanced right now? Just wondering!
Elewd3 voteshe has a lot of nerfs on the PBE being shipped to live next week.
Angry Monster8 votesHard to call this tons/a lot
[Passive no longer knocks back Scuttle] End of the Line (Q) Second hit base damage lowered to 80/125/170/215/260 from 85/145/205/265/325 Detonation time after hitting terrain increased to .25 seconds.
CrazedPorcupine11 votesThat does actually do quite a bit. It slows down his jungle, makes it slightly less safe and overall slows down his map control.
Overall, it does actually hit graves quite a bit, and should cut him down a fair amount.
The Yetii Rider3 votesThat does actually do quite a bit. It slows down his jungle, makes it slightly less safe and overall slows down his map control.
Overall, it does actually hit graves quite a bit, and should cut him down a fair amount.
The problem isn't Graves's damage, at least not his burst damage. The problem is that he gets 120 armor and MR for free.
RiotRiot Sotere44 votesElewd and Angry Monster pointed out that we've got plans for him lined up on PBE. Graves has a fairly interesting playstyle. He was a bit overtuned on release, and we tuned him down in a redeploy. Players continued to get better at him and get more experience on him in different roles, which made him an even better pick.
We clearly agree he deserves to be toned down. However, him being the highest win rate in 3 roles is something that only came to light in 6.1.
Khâmul2 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yR62KYr1,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2016-02-08T05:39:31.829+0000)
Elewd and Angry Monster pointed out that we've got plans for him lined up on PBE. Graves has a fairly interesting playstyle. He was a bit overtuned on release, and we tuned him down in a redeploy. Players continued to get better at him and get more experience on him in different roles, which made him an even better pick.
We clearly agree he deserves to be toned down. However, him being the highest win rate in 3 roles is something that only came to light in 6.1.
Any plan about when Mordekaiser will get his rework? Meddler said it was far in the future but what is far? 6 months?1 year?2years?
Meanie4011 votesAsk Sona players when she's getting a rework, and you'll have your answer....
Khâmul7 votesAsk Sona players when she's getting a rework, and you'll have your answer....
thanks dude. I was hesitating about starting necromancy to make myself undead so I could wait as long as possible but now I know I must do it
Mhihnj2 votesI can help you with the waiting but ask a 
main to help with necromancy
or 
are more turned into undying things :p
Heckin Support3 votesAsk Sona players when she's getting a rework, and you'll have your answer....
And even then, ask how happy we are. Spoiler, we aren't.
TheVishual12 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yR62KYr1,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2016-02-08T05:39:31.829+0000)
Elewd and Angry Monster pointed out that we've got plans for him lined up on PBE. Graves has a fairly interesting playstyle. He was a bit overtuned on release, and we tuned him down in a redeploy. Players continued to get better at him and get more experience on him in different roles, which made him an even better pick.
We clearly agree he deserves to be toned down. However, him being the highest win rate in 3 roles is something that only came to light in 6.1.
You say he was a bit overtuned on release but why do new releases and reworks consistently dominate the meta until they're nerfed into the ground? This happens every release and has been happening in some respect for several years but has been horrible since the juggernaut patch.
What does the balance team even do at work? Why does Riot rely so heavily on unpaid beta testers on PBE who they know are just there to test new skins and bs around with new champs instead of actual employees like every other game doing balance work?
LegendmakerGX15 votesRiot barely work's from what I hear they do the same thing as google work place which is 80% does nothing but play games. There was a article which shows most employee actually does nothing (Just like Google employees). You can look it up if you want. 1000 workers and still the game is unbalance, Afk in rank which Lyte some how never get the job done. Tribunal which was promise 2 years ago. So ya really nothing to show for it.
Amelie10 votesReally dude? You don't see the effort they put in this game at all? I feel bad for you.
On another note, it's kind of their actual job to play their own game. How can you improve something you don't play?
Yeah, it's not perfect, there's always problems here or there... but they still try.
Pika3108 votesThat doesn't justify spending 95% of their workweek spamming Yolo Queue and ARAM.
Play the game, sure. Test what you're changing, of course. However, they allocate next to no time doing real work. Rito have openly stated that ANYONE in "balance" has free reign to make changes to the game as they see fit, even interns. They don't have to approve it with a supervisor, they don't have to discuss ideas with other employees, they quite frequently don't even leave the note of the change for the next patch notes that they're OBLIGATED to do.
I can't begin to imagine how many Shadow Nerfs were made as a result of that. I've already confirmed half a dozen just done to Sona alone since the 2014 summer. Who can say how many were done to other champions?
Amelie2 votesDo you happen to have any sources for any of that? I would be interested in reading more about this.
LegendmakerGX5 votesGoogle it bro. Top place to work it will show riot game, reason why it was even top place to work is because they do the same thing as Google which is barely do anything at work and just play. Hence why they are on the top list place to work ,I'm to lazy to give the link but if you just Google Riot top place to work it will probably show.
LegendmakerGX4 votesWhat effort? Yes they made the game but after season 3/4 they don't do a single crap any more like they use to. Champions take 1 month/1.5 month to be release and I know they are unique every time now the longer they take to be release but really the game feels sooooooo boring now without a new champion every 2 weeks maybe (3 weeks) like the old days. Note back in the day's when champion where release every 2 weeks they were RARELY EVEN OP now every unique champion has some cheap ass ability like Kalista putting old champion out of date.
Also Yes they should play the game you are right but you are telling me they play the game and do not see a issue with afk/people not connecting at all but the game still continues or my FAVOURITE people in rank STILL LOSE ELO because of a a afk?
After season 3/4 and this is my opinion, After season 3 they saw the money role in and they practically said" HEY THIS GAME IS SET FOR LIFE SO WE DON'T NEED TO WORK A LOT ANY MORE". No this is a game were it has to be kept updated for the player base to enjoy it is not like Google where you can relax since Google barely have to do anything any more to appease the customer base.
This is the truth you can defend Riot all you wan't but they stop giving a crap about us after season 3. Heck the only thing I saw them work on was map graphic update but no season map change(For all the veteran players who know the Xmas rift you know what I'm talking about) Not a stupid minion hat change...... Also the queue up is new which should had been done a long time ago in my opinion since it really isn't anything to be amazed about other then the look template but when it was release....it was taken off because of a bug and this wasn't a 'To many people using the Queue bugg" This was a bug that seem like it should had been spotted on the PBE which they had tested the new Queue 2 times before releasing it.
DeathBurst1 votesIllaoi was not overtuned. Jhin neither. And I'm not sure about Shen, but he doesn't seem overtuned to me...
Retillin2 votesLet's wait another week before we say Jhin isn't over-tuned. If Champion.gg is to believe, ADC Jhin players with 5-15 on him have a 77% win rate. And Mid Jhin players with 5-15 games played have 59.9% win rate.
Supreme Senpai6916 votesDunno why people ask Rioters a question, berate the answer, then wonder why reds don't post in threads. Just want it to be known a lot of players appreciate the answers you give, even if we don't personally agree with them all the time.
RiotRiot Sotere14 votesThanks!
For the most part this is healthy discussion about the state of the game. We do have a lot of topics flying about now, though. :)
Retillin4 votesYou know the reason people get fed up with "balance" from Riot? Fiora/Graves have been, an admitted, problem for a while. Yet Swain was nerfed first. High play rate + strength should be nerfed before low play rate + strength.
Prozzak3 votesCertain champs are easier to nerf and not gut over others. It just so happens that Swain was one of them.
RottedApples3 votesand to make matters worse they downvote the comment calling them out as opposed to realizing they fucked up.
Left Hook Larry4 votesLet me ask you a serious question that will probably come off offensive.
How can you guys say Rengar was " embarrassing that Rengar exists in his current form" and then nerf him, but allow things like Kindred, Graves, Mundo, etc. to continue being anti-fun and extremely strong? I really don't understand it because Rengar was not changed for a while and the meta was what made him strong with the removal of wards. THese other champs have been strong due to changes for a while. I'm not even a Rengar main/player and I felt somewhat insulted by those words.
RiotRiot Sotere10 votesDefinitely didn't come off as insulting. Rengar being an embarrassment was a Rioter's opinion. Now, I happened to agree with it, so the point is kind of moot but one Rioter could be embarrassed with a number of things and it doesn't necessarily mean they're right or that we're changing it.
That was just kind of a preface that beats around the bush. The problem with Rengar, IMO, wasn't that he was ridiculously powerful or won a lot of games (though he was definitely getting on the high side). The main issue was that when he was successful even HIGHLY skilled players could not react fast enough to his kill pattern.
Of the champions you listed: we modified two, and are changing the third (Graves) next patch. And to be fair we also had a redeploy for Graves post 5.22 release to tone him down. Still, I don't think any of those champions were on the same level as Rengar.
blfUvZ8Ybu1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yR62KYr1,comment-id=00050000000100060000,timestamp=2016-02-09T06:41:40.092+0000)
Definitely didn't come off as insulting. Rengar being an embarrassment was a Rioter's opinion. Now, I happened to agree with it, so the point is kind of moot but one Rioter could be embarrassed with a number of things and it doesn't necessarily mean they're right or that we're changing it.
That was just kind of a preface that beats around the bush. The problem with Rengar, IMO, wasn't that he was ridiculously powerful or won a lot of games (though he was definitely getting on the high side). The main issue was that when he was successful even HIGHLY skilled players could not react fast enough to his kill pattern.
Of the champions you listed: we modified two, and are changing the third (Graves) next patch. And to be fair we also had a redeploy for Graves post 5.22 release to tone him down. Still, I don't think any of those champions were on the same level as Rengar.
We are complaining about Lux.Why are you ignoring people? I won't say statistics or Lux's ridiculous burst or utility or 0 counterplay chance.
BlueEclipse7 votes[{quoted}](name=Akatsuki Deidara,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yR62KYr1,comment-id=000500000001000600000000,timestamp=2016-02-09T08:37:10.614+0000)
We are complaining about Lux.Why are you ignoring people? I won't say statistics or Lux's ridiculous burst or utility or 0 counterplay chance.
0 Counterplay? That's just because you don't know how to play against her. Lux has no mobility and low health. If you can get her to miss her binding or has someone who can get to her fast, she's already as good as dead.
blfUvZ8Ybu2 votes0 Counterplay? That's just because you don't know how to play against her. Lux has no mobility and low health. If you can get her to miss her binding or has someone who can get to her fast, she's already as good as dead.
Muh mobility.She has 50%+ win rate against all champions.Enough for op and nerfs.
BlueEclipse2 votes[{quoted}](name=Akatsuki Deidara,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yR62KYr1,comment-id=00050000000100060000000000010000,timestamp=2016-02-09T13:43:16.296+0000)
Muh mobility.She has 50%+ win rate against all champions.Enough for op and nerfs.
You just said, she has 0 counterplay, which is not true at all. Also, I didn't say she needed any more mobility, so mocking that is not really proving your point.
Pointing to winrate and screaming nerf, is not really useful. Now maybe Lux needs nerfs, or maybe she's fine as she is, I don't know shit about game design. What I do know is, that it wouldn't be the first time where a character is balanced but has high winrate, and people cry for nerfs, either because their counters are too weak or because people just don't know how to play against them.
blfUvZ8Ybu2 votesYou just said, she has 0 counterplay, which is not true at all. Also, I didn't say she needed any more mobility, so mocking that is not really proving your point.
Pointing to winrate and screaming nerf, is not really useful. Now maybe Lux needs nerfs, or maybe she's fine as she is, I don't know shit about game design. What I do know is, that it wouldn't be the first time where a character is balanced but has high winrate, and people cry for nerfs, either because their counters are too weak or because people just don't know how to play against them.
Lux's w shield and e skill hasn't counterplay.
Left Hook Larry1 votesThe main issue was that when he was successful even HIGHLY skilled players could not react fast enough to his kill pattern.
Here's the problem with that logic. If Rengar was this strong, then why was he almost never picked/banned in the LCS? I mean if even the highly skilled players can't react to him, why haven't teams thought of using him and getting all the kills onto him and then just destroying their opponents in pro play? Seems like it would be an amazing tactic if Rengar was indeed this strong.
Still, I don't think any of those champions were on the same level as Rengar.
Same problem as above. Kindred, Fiora, Graves, Mundo are top tier picks right now in pro play and people are actually proving how strong they are, yet they seem to remain untouched so far. I honestly wouldn't care about the Rengar nerfs because I can see how he can be anti-fun, but these other champs are arguably worse and we have received no feedback on them besides on Graves
Cosnirak2 votes"If Rengar was this strong, then why was he almost never picked/banned in the LCS?"
Because the strategys that shut him down are tons of vision, safe play in lanes, team coordination and grouping, and early game strong counter jungling. All of which are what dominate the LCS fairly hard right now, especially with the current meta of constant lane swaps to tower trade. Additionally he's been non meta in pro play for a long while now and pros are slow to change champions.
Despite all that he is still seeing occasional pro play. But Riot doesn't balance mostly for pro play, they balance mostly for diamond+ non pro play. And there he's not only seeing a good bit of play but also has above average success and is very hard to stop once he gets even a little ahead. The counterplay to Rengar is to never let him get that little bit ahead, which requires that team work and safe play I mentioned above.
Pros aren't very interesting in champions who are feast or famine. They like safe picks. Picks that do a lot of work whether ahead or behind. If behind, Rengar falls off really hard and doesn't do much of anything.
The changes Riot made to him both nerfed and buffed him in ways that ideally make him less feast or famine. Giving him more damage in a longer fight, which can happen if he gets behind and builds a little tanky. But it also took away some of his extreme burst, meaning that even while ahead he doesn't just instakill people so easily.
Left Hook Larry1 votesBecause the strategys that shut him down are tons of vision, safe play in lanes, team coordination and grouping,
So you agree that Rengar has plenty of counterplay and that just because low elo kids who can't adjust their playstyle and lose because of it doesn't mean we should nerf that champ
Despite all that he is still seeing occasional pro play. But Riot doesn't balance mostly for pro play, they balance mostly for diamond+ non pro play
Occasional? You mean once or twice this season? And no, Riot has stated that they balance around Plat +. My point was not about balancing around pro players. My point was that if Rengar is really THIS hard to react to even with good players, then he would be played more in the LCS
Pros aren't very interesting in champions who are feast or famine. They like safe picks. Picks that do a lot of work whether ahead or behind. If behind, Rengar falls off really hard and doesn't do much of anything.
Another reason why Rengar was fine the way he was. He requires the enemy to make mistakes, so nerfing him because he one shots someone after being fed free kills makes 0 logical sense when you leave shit like Kindred or Fiora alone who don't need to be fed or capitalize on mistakes to win games
Giving him more damage in a longer fight, which can happen if he gets behind and builds a little tanky.
Do you not see what is wrong with this sentence? Rengar isn't a bruiser. He is an all in single target ASSASSIN. Meaning he goes in, kills someone, and goes out. He has clear counterplay and is useless without kills/ult advantage. Changing him to a bruiser who stays in the fight longer n builds tankier will ruin his identity
Cosnirak1 votesI agree that Rengar has plenty of counterplay... if you're an LCS team (though even then it's not necessarily healthy gameplay). But even challenger players had trouble dealing with him before the 6.2 changes. His counterplay is at the team level, not the individual player level. And yet even team counterplay wasn't enough to keep him out of pro play.
Riot has said diamond+ multiple times. Though that's not all they balance for of course.
Everyone makes mistakes, requiring the enemy to make some for him to be good is good or bad depending on the details of how that all works. In a sense almost every champion requires that.
Rengar WAS an all in single target assassin, because that was the best way to use him, not because that's the only thing he could do. The change they made is to help him be a little less all in. He's still mostly a single target assassin, but now he takes a little longer to get the kill but does more damage by being alive longer. Gives the enemy more room to react, because insta killing people from out of nowhere is not ok.
Left Hook Larry1 votesBut even challenger players had trouble dealing with him before the 6.2 changes
Yet his winrate wasn't high (48%), he was never complained about and he wasn't touched for a while.
Then riot make warding harder and make it impossible to pink when full build and he became more annoying. Terrible logic to nerf him when the only problem was SOLO QUE and because you made it impossible to buy pinks at full build.
Riot has said diamond+ multiple times.
Do your research, they said Plat+
Everyone makes mistakes, requiring the enemy to make some for him to be good is good
But the mistakes you need to make in order for Rengar to work is really low elo mistakes such as not buying wards, spliting as a squishy alone, not peeling/grouping, etc.
Also with other champs you can abuse mistakes, but you can also outplay. GL outplaying with Rengar
Rengar WAS an all in single target assassin, because that was the best way to use him, not because that's the only thing he could do.
Yeah... that was his identity as a champion. A single target hunter. That's like saying Zed is an assassin because that's the only thing he does well. Yeah obviously that is his identity. Can you think of Zed becoming a bruiser? Would be stupid and wouldn't make sense. Either rework rengar into a bruiser or keep him as an assassin
Cosnirak1 votes"Yet his winrate wasn't high (48%), he was never complained about and he wasn't touched for a while.
Then riot make warding harder and make it impossible to pink when full build and he became more annoying. Terrible logic to nerf him when the only problem was SOLO QUE and because you made it impossible to buy pinks at full build."
Looking just at win rate isn't enough. He's been very strong for a while, but due to his ultimate he's simply MUCH stronger with highly coordinated team work. There have been complaints about him, though mostly in regards to his performance and prevalence in pro games.
"But the mistakes you need to make in order for Rengar to work is really low elo mistakes such as not buying wards, spliting as a squishy alone, not peeling/grouping, etc."
Utter bullshit. I've seen numerous pros playing in solo Q die to him in less than .5 seconds despite their team trying very hard to ward well and keep a spare pink in their inventory.
"Also with other champs you can abuse mistakes, but you can also outplay. GL outplaying with Rengar"
Are you serious? Have you read his passive? -_-
"Yeah... that was his identity as a champion. A single target hunter."
And it still is. But now he doesn't kill you in .3 seconds, he kills you in about 1.5 seconds early on, less if he gets fed enough.
"That's like saying Zed is an assassin because that's the only thing he does well. Yeah obviously that is his identity. Can you think of Zed becoming a bruiser? Would be stupid and wouldn't make sense. Either rework rengar into a bruiser or keep him as an assassin"
Except that Zed does like 20 things very well right now. Also he could easily make an amazing bruiser with a few simple changes... It would be awkward due to his current extremely light cc but he'd be like a juggernaut who trades cc for doing more damage and extreme mobility, which maybe just makes a fighter...? Anyways that's not the point.
Rengar actually makes a lot of sense as a bruiser with his current kit except for his ultimate. One of the weirdest yet highly effective builds in the game is 5 dorans blade + boots on rengar top then you start selling 1-2 blades at at time and get essentially fighter and juggernaut items. He becomes an extremely good split pusher.
Left Hook Larry1 votesLooking just at win rate isn't enough.
Win rate isn't everything, but it tells you a lot.
ultimate he's simply MUCH stronger with highly coordinated team work.
You do realize this is true for almost every single champ, right? You put Vel Koz in a highly coordinated team that peels for him he instantly seems broken as fuck. It's stupid to nerf a champ for this reason.
Utter bullshit. I've seen numerous pros playing in solo Q die to him in less than .5 seconds despite their team trying very hard to ward well and keep a spare pink in their inventory
Show me a clip of a pro getting one shot by a Rengar while being grouped with his team and his team placing pinks once they see the ! and try to peel for him. You won't find one because usually those clips are the pros walking around by themselves in the jungle or csing alone.
Are you serious? Have you read his passive?
What about it? Doesn't change anything. He's still a champ that relies heavily on mistakes being made against him. That is why he is good in solo que, but you will rarely ever see him in pro player. People are less likely to walk around alone in pro play against a Rengar
And it still is. But now he doesn't kill you in .3 seconds, he kills you in about 1.5 seconds early on, less if he gets fed enough.
Do you know what a bruiser is? Rengar's kit isn't like Zeds. Zed can press r, do his combo, then press r again and he is out free. Rengar jumps in and relies on his one shot or he will otherwise not get the kill because he will just get insta cc'd
Except that Zed does like 20 things very well right now. Also he could easily make an amazing bruiser with a few simple changes.
I disagree. He would make an OK bruiser, but his Ult would be pretty useless. His kit revolves around him going in, killing someone, getting out. A bruiser Zed would get shit on by most champs
Rengar actually makes a lot of sense as a bruiser with his current kit except for his ultimate. One of the weirdest yet highly effective builds in the game is 5 dorans blade + boots on rengar top then you start selling 1-2 blades at at time and get essentially fighter and juggernaut items. He becomes an extremely good split pusher.
Um what? 5 dorans blades is suicide unless you get fed with it early. No one should ever use it as an effective build unless they're 100% they will get fed, which is usually when you're against lower elo players. Rengar would make a terrible bruiser. It means his ult would be somewhat useless and just wouldn't make sense with his kit.
And he is 100% not a "extremely good split pusher." Champs like Fiora and Jax can 1v2 late game and have a ton of mobility. Rengar thrives in 1v1 cutting people off and no escape if you buy pinks.
Look, I would understand if they nerfed Rengar AFTER nerfing all the actual broken shit like Fiora, Mundo, Tahm, Kindred, etc. But Riot completely ignores how strong these champs are and focus on Rengar? This is pathetic and shows how shitty their balance team is
Cosnirak1 votes[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yR62KYr1,comment-id=000500000001000600000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-14T00:14:50.322+0000) You do realize this is true for almost every single champ, right? You put Vel Koz in a highly coordinated team that peels for him he instantly seems broken as fuck. It's stupid to nerf a champ for this reason.
Actually it isn't. Alistar just requires your team to do what they already want to do, but while getting to ignore some of the potential negative consequences. Abilities that let you survive are generally much easier to play with, especially for your team mates. Abilities that let you kill people but don't let you do it completely alone require your team to hit the same target with damage or cc, which is simply much harder.
Locking someone in the right place at the right time with a Morgana Q to secure a kill is like 50 times harder than walking under an enemy turret and pressing R while next to an enemy on Alistar. Luckily Alistar's R is on a much longer cd.
Show me a clip of a pro getting one shot by a Rengar while being grouped with his team and his team placing pinks once they see the ! and try to peel for him. You won't find one because usually those clips are the pros walking around by themselves in the jungle or csing alone.
Are you trying to say that the way to not get killed by Rengar is to just permanently stay grouped as 5 with pinks and peel at the ready as if that's something you can actually maintain all the time? Seriously?
Most of the time early on you're not going to be grouped as 5 because it's not correct to do so. If you did you'd lose to doing that. Later on you should be grouped a bit more but you still can't be 5 people ready to go 100% of the time, and even if you are that doesn't necessarily stop a Rengar with some kills from one shotting one of your carries. I'm not hunting down specific videos for you, sorry.
What about it? Doesn't change anything. He's still a champ that relies heavily on mistakes being made against him. That is why he is good in solo que, but you will rarely ever see him in pro player. People are less likely to walk around alone in pro play against a Rengar
The game isn't balanced solely around pro play. The vast vast VAST majority of players are not pros. Even so, you can't just assert that Rengar is fine because grouping as 5 with pinks is technically possible. Also Rengar with Ghostblade and swiftness boots can R and leap on you with almost 0 warning from the ! over your head. Well he could, but that's why they increased the range at which it appears now.
Do you know what a bruiser is? Rengar's kit isn't like Zeds. Zed can press r, do his combo, then press r again and he is out free. Rengar jumps in and relies on his one shot or he will otherwise not get the kill because he will just get insta cc'd
Rengar can press R, do his combo, and just walk away because you're dead. Or flash the wall and leap to a minion/jungle camp with his passive. Or just leap because you were near a bush and camp/minion when you died. Or stay because it's now 5v4 and the top damage carry on the enemy team is dead so Rengar isn't going to die before getting off another bit of damage.
Rengar pre nerfs was better at getting to your back line and killing your carry than Zed was. Zed can do it way too easily in my opinion, but Rengar could do it even better, which was very much not ok.
I disagree. He would make an OK bruiser, but his Ult would be pretty useless. His kit revolves around him going in, killing someone, getting out. A bruiser Zed would get shit on by most champs
Going in, killing someone, and then getting out is exactly what bruisers try to do... The difference with them and most assassins is that bruisers tend to kill you a little slower and be a little tankier. That's it.
Um what? 5 dorans blades is suicide unless you get fed with it early. No one should ever use it as an effective build unless they're 100% they will get fed, which is usually when you're against lower elo players. Rengar would make a terrible bruiser. It means his ult would be somewhat useless and just wouldn't make sense with his kit.
I've seen it work in diamond games. It's not 100% going to get you fed, but it gives you a pretty good shot. I specifically said "except for his ult" when I said he'd make a decent bruiser.
And he is 100% not a "extremely good split pusher." Champs like Fiora and Jax can 1v2 late game and have a ton of mobility. Rengar thrives in 1v1 cutting people off and no escape if you buy pinks.
Rengar may not be a Fiora or Jax level of split pusher but he's still pretty good at it. He can escape a lot of 1v2s and even win some, ulting to get away if things get even worse than that.
Look, I would understand if they nerfed Rengar AFTER nerfing all the actual broken shit like Fiora, Mundo, Tahm, Kindred, etc. But Riot completely ignores how strong these champs are and focus on Rengar? This is pathetic and shows how shitty their balance team is
Except they did nerf Mundo, multiple times in recent patches in fact. They also nerfed Tahm last patch. They nerfed Fiora a while back and are nerfing her again next patch. Kindred has been nerfed a couple times, including in 6.22. I don't agree with all of the balancing Riot does, but I'm honest when they do stuff right, even if it takes longer than I'd like.
Left Hook Larry1 votesActually it isn't. Alistar just requires your team to do what they already want to do, but while getting to ignore some of the potential negative consequences. Abilities that let you survive are generally much easier to play with, especially for your team mates. Abilities that let you kill people but don't let you do it completely alone require your team to hit the same target with damage or cc, which is simply much harder.
Locking someone in the right place at the right time with a Morgana Q to secure a kill is like 50 times harder than walking under an enemy turret and pressing R while next to an enemy on Alistar. Luckily Alistar's R is on a much longer cd.
My argument to this is the same. Why is Vel Koz not being nerfed? Clearly broken in highly coordinated teams!
Are you trying to say that the way to not get killed by Rengar is to just permanently stay grouped as 5 with pinks and peel at the ready as if that's something you can actually maintain all the time? Seriously?
Definitely not. But that is how you play against a FED one. Or you can always keep the entire map warded and back off when you see him.
Rengar can press R, do his combo, and just walk away because you're dead.
You don't have a team? So a squishy walkign around alone gets caught out by Rengar... you do realize that is what rengar is intended to do.
Going in, killing someone, and then getting out is exactly what bruisers try to do
That's what assassins do. Bruisers built half dmg half tank and focus on dueling more than one shotting the carries.
I've seen it work in diamond games
You've seen Ryan Choi, which is a challenger OTP of Rengar succeed with it in Diamond games on his smurf. No one does that in diamond unless smurfing and even then that build is S4
Rengar may not be a Fiora or Jax level of split pusher but he's still pretty good at it. He can escape a lot of 1v2s and even win some, ulting to get away if things get even worse than that.
Step 1: buy a pink Step 2: Kill Rengar EZ
Except they did nerf Mundo, multiple times in recent patches in fact. They also nerfed Tahm last patch. They nerfed Fiora a while back and are nerfing her again next patch. Kindred has been nerfed a couple times, including in 6.22. I don't agree with all of the balancing Riot does, but I'm honest when they do stuff right, even if it takes longer than I'd like.
I named you literally a small portion of champs that are broken. And do you know how long it took for them to nerf these champs? They prioritized rengar nerfs of this shit. Pathetic from Riot
Cosnirak1 votes[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yR62KYr1,comment-id=00050000000100060000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-16T04:15:01.082+0000)
My argument to this is the same. Why is Vel Koz not being nerfed? Clearly broken in highly coordinated teams!
The difference between Vel'Koz's ultimate done by a coordinated pro team and it done by a regular solo queued player isn't that big. A big part of this is the counterplay possible against his ultimate, which scales with player skill. Skilled players use Vel'Koz's ultimate better and skilled players play against it better. Alistar's ultimate leaves very little in terms of counterplay for the enemy team.
Definitely not. But that is how you play against a FED one. Or you can always keep the entire map warded and back off when you see him.
That 100% grouped as 5 for the rest of the game strategy is NEVER reasonable. You lose to a split push, even if it's just from a banner of commanded minion. Or you lose to Rengar STILL killing your carry despite your efforts, because he COULD do that in many cases. Also it's never reasonable to "keep the entire map warded."
You don't have a team? So a squishy walkign around alone gets caught out by Rengar... you do realize that is what rengar is intended to do.
You don't always have ENOUGH team with you to not die. Sometimes your entire team isn't even enough. Other champions, even when fed, simply don't have the back line diving power of Rengar (at least before the latest changes to him). Why don't they? Because it's stupid, annoying, unfun, bullshit. That's why they changed Rengar. Get over it.
That's what assassins do. Bruisers built half dmg half tank and focus on dueling more than one shotting the carries.
And that's what Rengar can do if built that way... shocker! /sarcasm
You've seen Ryan Choi, which is a challenger OTP of Rengar succeed with it in Diamond games on his smurf. No one does that in diamond unless smurfing and even then that build is S4
No I've never seen Ryan Choi do anything. I've watched Nightblue3, Bengi, and more do it though.
Step 1: buy a pink Step 2: Kill Rengar EZ
Pinks don't stop his move speed bonus. At best they typically let you see him just as he leaves the pink's range and gets away. If not... then Rengar kills one of you first. Yeah, he could do that, despite your pink. Hence the changes.
I named you literally a small portion of champs that are broken. And do you know how long it took for them to nerf these champs? They prioritized rengar nerfs of this shit. Pathetic from Riot
Actually several of those champions were nerfed before Rengar, a couple at the same time he was nerfed. and I think 2, maybe 3, were done ONE PATCH LATER. Rengar was less fun to deal with than those champions anyways. Except Fiora. Riot should've nerfed Fiora further like 3 patches ago at the very latest and they have no excuse for not doing so. I and many others are quite pissed about it.
Xonra2 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yR62KYr1,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2016-02-08T05:39:31.829+0000)
Elewd and Angry Monster pointed out that we've got plans for him lined up on PBE. Graves has a fairly interesting playstyle. He was a bit overtuned on release, and we tuned him down in a redeploy. Players continued to get better at him and get more experience on him in different roles, which made him an even better pick.
We clearly agree he deserves to be toned down. However, him being the highest win rate in 3 roles is something that only came to light in 6.1.
While it only came to light in 6.1, it wasn't as if it was a surprise (or at least it wasn't to me). It was clear he was going to be a monster in the Jungle sooner than later given his interaction with the knock back to monsters, he was already strong in ADC, and seeing as there are very few other ranged champions (or at least at the time) in Top Lane, it only made sense either Graves or Quinn were going to make a strong appearance (ended up being both).
The fact this wasn't glaringly obvious for at least 2 of the three roles (I'll give credit for top) concerns me a bit.
Schbiddzbua3 votesFrist off, hilarious response, but when will graves receive a nerf? He currently holds the highest win rates in top and jungle and near the highest in ADC, and yet 4 patches after the adc reworks he has not been toned down. Is there a reason you guys think he is balanced right now? Just wondering!
Udyr got a higher Winrate
Pika3108 votesI'm glad you said this, because the belief that winrates are the end-all explanation of gaming balance is completely out of hand. People use it as an excuse for literally anything. They don't realize the importance of dissecting other factors like Item Paths, Mastery Choices, Team Comps, Rune Builds, Familiarity and et cetera ad infitum.
As you already know, winrates are not a substitute for balance, they're just the end result of countless minute calculations.
Hay5eed7 votesLook, I agree with you. The winrate of a champ is NOT the end-all explanation of balance. However, I think that it IS a good start. Yes, there are TONS of other factors that can affect a champions power. Items, R+M, Team comps, and experience included. However, when ALL of this is taken into, if a champion is still sitting above 55%, they are likely to be a strong pick, if not OP (depending on how high they are above 55%).
If a champion is ONLY powerful with ONE team comp, then their winrate is highly unlikely to be high. If a champion is only powerful with one type of team comp, then their winrate is highly unlikely to be high ---It is worth noting that meta has a lot to do with this. If a champ synergizes very well with teams that have an assassin, and a tank, in an assassin meta, they are going to be really strong, since assassins are always used in an assassin meta, and top laners are usually tanks If a champion is only powerful with one item, they are still likely to be powerful, cause they will just build that item every time they play. I mean would it be fair to say "All adc's are fair and balanced cause they need an IE or ER in order to do damage"? Most people don't call of item nerfs or removals (though I kinda want to see zhonyas leave).
Considering how many games are played, how many different R+M there can be, how many build paths there are, and team comps, if a champ is still able to maintain a winrate that is pretty high, then yes they are pretty strong.
If a champion has a really low winrate, then its a good indicator that they need buffs.
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