A tank helps the team with protecting, very hard crowd controlling, peeling and initiating.
A juggernaut just fights whoever the hell he/she wants.
Please remember this the next time you post on the boards, because juggernauts can fight back, while tanks, most of the time, cannot.
Also remember that a tank can save your ass most of the time, while a juggernaut, most of the time, can’t.
Slythrin Umbreon38 votesBruiser mains: https://i.imgur.com/M5ND355.jpg[/img]
The entire team1 votes[sg-miss-fortune]
Cowseed6 votesA juggernaut just fights whoever the hell he/she wants.
That cant kite
The thigh guy4 votesJuggernauts are Just tanks with damage tacked on for no real reason.
Idk about you, but I have a harder time killing a Darius than a sion.
Critmaster Garen9 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-27T23:17:32.269+0000)
Juggernauts are Just tanks with damage tacked on for no real reason.
Idk about you, but I have a harder time killing a Darius than a sion.
hooks the enemy carry, chain cc's him with his passive and aoe slow from his e, and has a ranged direct targeted knockup to initiate teamfights with.
heals a lot and deals a lot of auto attack damage.
but yea, k. juggernauts have exactly the same strengths as tanks with damage tacked on. not every jugger is fucking 
a champion i still disagree with.
EbonyBladeJ886 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-06-27T23:49:43.624+0000)
but yea, k. juggernauts have exactly the same strengths as tanks with damage tacked on. not every jugger is fucking
Well, isn't even a Juggernaut anyways. He's a Specialist; a champion who has a strangely or uniquely designed kit that they can't be nailed down as one class or another.
I mean, look at his kit.
Passive: Sustain that scales with level for killing units or structures.
Q: Two Forms of CC, on 1 skill. A 1 second Knockup followed by a 60% Slow for 1.5 seconds afterward.
W: Another CC, Silence for 1.6 to 2 seconds dependent on the rank of the skill.
E: 1.5 Second decaying slow to units hit.
R: True Damage Ult that, if it kills a champion, minion or monster, gives him free health. You could almost call it an Execute since most Cho players use it to finish off targets.
What do we see?
Well first off, he's already got every Juggernaut beat on CC. He's got 3 separate kinds! A Knockup, Multiple Slows and a Silence! Most Juggernauts have at most 1 Hard CC and 1 Soft CC. Usually just the one hard CC and none of the soft, or vice-versa. This large quantity of CC disqualifies him as a Juggernaut.
What's next, his passive sustain? Sure, it's locked behind last-hitting minions, but it's still sustain so some people might claim that the sustain makes him a Juggernaut. But it's not really the case.
With the exception of those Juggernauts whose forms of sustain are essentially just boosted regen (
, and 
) or Nasus with his Soul Eater passive that just is free life steal, no Juggernaut gets Sustain for simply existing. So no, the PASSIVE doesn't qualify him as a Juggernaut either.
Last but certainly not least, the ult. It's True Damage, something that certain Juggernauts have. It even gives him free stats if it kills someone, like Darius with his Noxian Might, or even Morde with his new Realm of Death, or maybe even Trundle with Subjugation, and Nasus with Fury of the Sands. The thing that sets his apart from theirs though, is that his free stats are PERMANENT. He keeps the Free HP he gains for the rest of the game, unlike the Juggernaut Ults (Or passive, in the case of Darius) that I've listed, who lose the free stats they gain after a certain amount of time. Thus, his ult is SIMILAR, but still NOT CLOSE ENOUGH to qualify him as a Juggernaut.
But, despite these differences (And I'm sure more that I haven't listed here), people STILL seem to that think he's a Juggernaut. https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/4000676_460swp.webp
Anu3isII2 votesSkarner has a Slow that leads to a Stun and a Suppress, yet he was considered a Juggernaut by Riot in the Class Rework of Season 5.
And sustain is spread in many juggernaut kits: 
(besides the ones you mentioned). I could make a point that having sustain is part of their identity.
Lastly, what is the issue with his Ult? I get that most of the Juggers get some temporary stats when Ulting, but that doesn't have to be a general rule. Moreover, you could simply argue that it has a similar role to a Nasus' Q: Infinite Stacking + Execute. The idea behind Cho's ult is that he grows bigger and more powerful, making him look like a big raid boss that is going to devour you in seconds.
The perception people have of Juggernauts is that of a raid boss: slow, hard to kill and very deadly when close. Cho fits all these.
Yets424011 votesSkarner got adjusted afterwards to be a diver, to point to skarner as a juggernaut is misinformed or dishonest.
Anu3isII1 votesOkay, maybe Riot changed their lists, but they still considered him a Juggernaut at one point in time (that is why I mentioned Season 5 btw). If even the developers had question signs about his identity, it shows that there are unclear aspects about the delimitations of their classes.
Yets42402 votesThat was when they were creating the concept of what it meant to be a juggernaut, and Skarner got additional restrictions at the time to better match that. Unfortunately, Skarner players liked his old playstyle as a more Warden oriented, CC heavy teamfight disrupter/peeler, so RIOT changed him back and made him a diver/warden hybrid.
Socon1 votesSkarner has a Slow that leads to a Stun and a Suppress, yet he was considered a Juggernaut by Riot in the Class Rework of Season 5.
And sustain is spread in many juggernaut kits:
Lastly, what is the issue with his Ult? I get that most of the Juggers get some temporary stats when Ulting, but that doesn't have to be a general rule. Moreover, you could simply argue that it has a similar role to a Nasus' Q: Infinite Stacking + Execute. The idea behind Cho's ult is that he grows bigger and more powerful, making him look like a big raid boss that is going to devour you in seconds.
The perception people have of Juggernauts is that of a raid boss: slow, hard to kill and very deadly when close. Cho fits all these.
Cho doesnt get kited as bad as a jugger. Has good cc. Has a utility damage ult that usually wont touch anyone but the tank if they're dling their job.
Anu3isII3 votesWhat? Cho can be kited to hell if he doesn't land his Q and he will always try to flash Ult squishies over Ulting Tanks. Compare him to Darius, who has both a hook (which is more reliable, however lower ranged) and an almost spammable slow, similar to how Cho would keep with his target, while having an Ultimate that you can actually afford to execute as many targets as you can (since it resets).
The only different thing Cho has for himself is that he is one of the few champions who can go either Full-Tank or Full-AP (so either a Jugger or a Mage), which spilts into two totally different play styles.
Socon1 votesWhat? Cho can be kited to hell if he doesn't land his Q and he will always try to flash Ult squishies over Ulting Tanks. Compare him to Darius, who has both a hook (which is more reliable, however lower ranged) and an almost spammable slow, similar to how Cho would keep with his target, while having an Ultimate that you can actually afford to execute as many targets as you can (since it resets).
The only different thing Cho has for himself is that he is one of the few champions who can go either Full-Tank or Full-AP (so either a Jugger or a Mage), which spilts into two totally different play styles.
Cant dash away when you're silenced forever, incoming 1k true damage point and click nom following a 
. Heaps of kiting.
Anu3isII3 votesYou don't even have to dash to dodge that...
And why do you even mention ? One CC and you wasted it. Everyone can build that item, yet it doesn't mean that you become an unstoppable force.
Socon1 votesYou don't even have to dash to dodge that...
And why do you even mention
Its a common item for tank chogath in high mmr and you dont pop it haphazzardly lol
Anu3isII2 votesAnd you expect your opponents to not react to it? To kite an opponent requires a combination of mobility and CC.
Why do you think Nasus, a champion who can Permaslow people with his W (which is targeted) can be kited so easily? Because people target him with CC, making any form of Movement Speed useless. All his Precision Rune set-up use the Tenacity Rune for this very reason.
Any competent team would kite a Cho without difficulties in the same manner they would kite a Nasus: by using CC when they trigger their Mobility Boosts. Without them, they are as slow as any immobile champion.
Socon1 votesAnd you expect your opponents to not react to it? To kite an opponent requires a combination of mobility and CC.
Why do you think Nasus, a champion who can Permaslow people with his W (which is targeted) can be kited so easily? Because people target him with CC, making any form of Movement Speed useless. All his Precision Rune set-up use the Tenacity Rune for this very reason.
Any competent team would kite a Cho without difficulties in the same manner they would kite a Nasus: by using CC when they trigger their Mobility Boosts. Without them, they are as slow as any immobile champion.
Except it also slows them meaning they will be punished if they turn
3TWarrior2 voteshe plays like a juggernaut though...
raidboss level damage/durability, his abilities and power are circumstantial, only his W is a reliable ability unless the opponent engages close enough for him to ult or flash ult, very slow moving with little to no mobility
it's also not too unusual for two kinds of crowd control to happen at once...any mage with hard crowd control can build 
as just an example
if you want it as a simple comparison, Most other juggernauts have a hard time missing their abilities while in range or properly set up. The new mordekaiser is similar to cho-gath but has more reliable abiliities, so he's probably somewhere in-between the two extremes
you compare his "sustain" to others, but he still has to be the cause of a unit's death to gain it and it is not very much
most juggernauts have a form of sustain, as a fair comparison, why not show juggernauts that do not have sustain?
Yets42402 votesmost juggernauts have a form of sustain, as a fair comparison, why not show juggernauts that do not have sustain?
Because there is literally only a single juggernaut without sustain, and that is Shyvana who gets passive Armor and Magic resist instead, and is a jungler tuned to be reliant on jungle item sustain early on, before nearly always building a life steal item second or third.
3TWarrior1 votesso your only arguments are: he has more crowd control; no juggernaut has sustain just by existing (which you discarded yourself...twice)
is he a tank? most tanks usually don't go for kill potential is he a fighter? he doesn't rely on auto attacks is he a mage? by most people's definitions, mages do not build tank items and are not durable
is he a support? (I used him as one before they nerfed his sustain, which was before the rework) he has plenty of crowd control, durability and base damage...while acting as a threat to peel for his allies. Sounds like a support to me, but wait, that can't be right...he also scales into the late-game
now let's list the traits of juggernauts: slow moving, little to no mobility, Very high often conditional damage, sustain, a very large threat that is best not handled alone in most cases, typically able to build for damage or durability or both
sounds a lot like chogath...nowhere is it listed that a juggernaut can not have hard crowd control
The fact that "specialist" even exists means that their category system is flawed. It was much better when he was classified as a "mage/tank" hybrid
Yets42402 votesLook who you replied to again.
3TWarrior1 votesyet you defended the same argument...
Yets42402 votesYour reading comprehension is downright terrible. I would seriously recommend going back to summer school.
What I said was simply, and entirely:
"Because there is literally only a single juggernaut without sustain, and that is Shyvana who gets passive Armor and Magic resist instead, and is a jungler tuned to be reliant on jungle item sustain early on, before nearly always building a life steal item second or third."
In response to, as I quote, this and only this exact line:
"most juggernauts have a form of sustain, as a fair comparison, why not show juggernauts that do not have sustain?"
That's fucking it. Where are you seeing me phantom posting or defending arguments anywhere? I have not defended a single thing, I merely pointed out why your question is ridiculous and belays a lack of understanding of the juggernaut class. That's literally, and entirely it.
3TWarrior1 votesyou defended their post , stating that using unfair comparisons are justified because there are very few exceptions to the characteristic that juggernauts have sustain
quote:
"because there is literally only a single juggernaut without sustain" etc
The original poster tried to argue that "no juggernaut gets sustain for simply existing" while listing counter-examples to their own argument
You stepped in on their behalf in the conversation (before they have even replied), made no attempt at mediation and have shown hostility...that is very defensive
I am sorry I mistook you for the maker of that post in my first post, but reading comprehension does not bely or beget social understanding, nor does it mask hostility.
Perhaps you should re-evaluate your stance on my comprehension and your position in this discussion. Claiming that I "lack understanding" is a very broad statement and by the length of the discussion about chogath being a juggernaut or not, a misinformed one.
FiveAneurysms6 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-27T23:17:32.269+0000)
Juggernauts are Just tanks with damage tacked on for no real reason.
Idk about you, but I have a harder time killing a Darius than a sion.
If you have a hard time killing Darius your doing something wrong, Darius only starts building resistances on his 3rd item after boots ,trinity/cleaver and steraks, so idk how this is hard to kill:
Darius build : 
as an average build
Sion builds : 
as an average build
How the fuck is the former easier to kill
The thigh guy2 votesIf you have a hard time killing Darius your doing something wrong, Darius only starts building resistances on his 3rd item after boots ,trinity/cleaver and steraks, so idk how this is hard to kill:
Darius build :
How the fuck is the former easier to kill
Couldn’t have anything to do with a up to 45% missing hp, spammable heal, that also shits outa damage?
Socon4 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2019-06-28T00:07:25.012+0000)
Couldn’t have anything to do with a up to 45% missing hp, spammable heal, that also shits outa damage?
Darius q isnt spammable. Buy grievous wounds.
The thigh guy2 votesDarius q isnt spammable. Buy grievous wounds.
Darius max rank q (first ability maxed) cooldown 5 seconds.
Now apply the 40% cdr EVERY bruiser gets tacked onto their items.
3 second cooldown. But you know. Definetly not spammable right?
The entire team3 votesIf you can aim it. You're probably being kited 450 units away anyway.
Socon5 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-28T02:36:36.974+0000)
Darius max rank q (first ability maxed) cooldown 5 seconds.
Now apply the 40% cdr EVERY bruiser gets tacked onto their items.
3 second cooldown. But you know. Definetly not spammable right?
Oh no a 3 second Q you have to aim late game when everyone has mobility and you get kited into oblivion.... this q sure is great when i get melted in 2 seconds by the enemy vayne who just proced w 3 times in 2 seconds with rageblade. Im sure i can hit ezreal with my 3 second Q when his Q hits me with a giant slow every 1.8 seconds and blinks away from my grab. Oh yes i got my Q off finally! oh wait i died 2 seconds later anyway from being melted/focused because im trying to hit a Q when im low hp.
3TWarrior1 votes offers 20%, you can get additional amounts from runes and most base components have CDR
with 20%, it's down to 4 seconds, but either way, prolonged skirmishes work in darius's favor and he has the tools to draw them out while dealing large amounts of damage at the same time
as a darius, you wouldn't want to engage ranged champions anyway when you're out of the laning phase. you're a walking deterrent for their front line and immobile champs
Socon4 votes
with 20%, it's down to 4 seconds, but either way, prolonged skirmishes work in darius's favor and he has the tools to draw them out while dealing large amounts of damage at the same time
as a darius, you wouldn't want to engage ranged champions anyway when you're out of the laning phase. you're a walking deterrent for their front line and immobile champs
And with triforce you become an easy target for control mages who will stop you in your tracks before you can even touch the amumu who just engaged on you dodging your q.
Crescent Dusk1 votesOh no a 3 second Q you have to aim late game when everyone has mobility and you get kited into oblivion.... this q sure is great when i get melted in 2 seconds by the enemy vayne who just proced w 3 times in 2 seconds with rageblade. Im sure i can hit ezreal with my 3 second Q when his Q hits me with a giant slow every 1.8 seconds and blinks away from my grab. Oh yes i got my Q off finally! oh wait i died 2 seconds later anyway from being melted/focused because im trying to hit a Q when im low hp.
"kited to oblivion"
Says the guy with base 5 more movement speed, who takes ghost summoner alongside flash most of the time and still wins lane, who rushes Phage, so he has a movement speed steroid once he hits anything, including minions, who also gets movement speed from trinity speed bonus, and builds deadman's plate on top.
And has a 535 range Apprehend and a massive slow once the target gets put in melee range.
Socon4 votes[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=0002000100000000000000010001,timestamp=2019-06-28T05:49:05.837+0000)
"kited to oblivion"
Says the guy with base 5 more movement speed, who takes ghost summoner alongside flash most of the time and still wins lane, who rushes Phage, so he has a movement speed steroid once he hits anything, including minions, who also gets movement speed from trinity speed bonus, and builds deadman's plate on top.
And has a 535 range Apprehend and a massive slow once the target gets put in melee range.
WoW move speed is so helpful vs cc and terrain scaling!!!!!!!!!!!
Crescent Dusk2 votesWoW move speed is so helpful vs cc and terrain scaling!!!!!!!!!!!
CC virtually affects every champion, not just Darius. What the fuck are your support, junglers, and mages doing when the enemy CC's you.
Onerios3 votesThe reason why juggernauts are considered vulnerable to cc is that they typically have a combination of low threat range and target access combined with part of their ehp/sustain coming from being in combat, slows combined with well timed harder cc makes them deceptively squishy and at risk of spending a fight chasing someone but not getting anything done. Compare this to the typical mage (higher threat range), ADC (target agnostic and almost always has backup), or diving bruiser (burst mobility), almost all other champion classes cope better with the presence of cc (with the exception of assassins and hard cc, their survivability being centered around not being there to be hit rather then stats or windowed defenses).
Socon4 votes[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=000200010000000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-28T06:41:00.313+0000)
CC virtually affects every champion, not just Darius. What the fuck are your support, junglers, and mages doing when the enemy CC's you.
Not following up because you ran ahead of them with all your move speed 😂
FiveAneurysms3 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-28T02:36:36.974+0000)
Darius max rank q (first ability maxed) cooldown 5 seconds.
Now apply the 40% cdr EVERY bruiser gets tacked onto their items.
3 second cooldown. But you know. Definetly not spammable right?
Yah but as a Darius main your very VERY rarely going to hit 3 people, and most of the time if your focused your going to die in 4 seconds so your going to get 1-2 Q's in a fight, these are gonna hit 1/at most 2 people
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesBRuiser items have the lowest CDR in the entire game because BRUISER ITEMS have only 20% CDR and that is black cleaver or trinity.
Everything else is tank items and well SoS noone wanted.
The entire team3 votesThat's cuz Darius has damage and recovery that makes him a 'threat' and 'harder to kill' because of his damage AoEs and capabilities. Compared to Sion, Darius has to kill you in order to soak damage. Sion doesn't need to kill. He just soaks, and is a 'threat' due to his CC.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=The entire team,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yLWg3Ewk,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-06-28T02:52:28.060+0000)
That's cuz Darius has damage and recovery that makes him a 'threat' and 'harder to kill' because of his damage AoEs and capabilities. Compared to Sion, Darius has to kill you in order to soak damage. Sion doesn't need to kill. He just soaks, and is a 'threat' due to his CC.
I’d argue that Darius with his q heal is even tankier than sion.
It’s not like his core build isn’t giving him a fuck ton of bulk.
Current most popular build is Black cleaver > sterak’s gage. 600 health + a monsterous shield. Add in that you are on a timer to kill him and you creat a monster.
The entire team3 votesI would agree that Darius would be a monster, but a monster can be easier to take down compared to a steel wall like Sion. It’s just that the monster bares his fangs and claws to fight back while the steel wall doesn’t really fight back.
It’s probably all schematics and circumstances. Yes, Darius can be scarier to fight in a skirmish, because he has the bulk, plus the damaging fangs of a monster to fight back, which inherently makes him more frustrating to deal with. Sure he has the heal, but you aren’t gonna be able to heal it all up unless you get an ungodly Q in a teamfight, where they aren’t kiting you. And sure, Darius can get Steraks and it helps him to get tankier, but so can Sion.
But Darius doesn’t have the capabilities to tank, because he has no defensive options, compared to Sion’s latent ability to teamfight, shield, unstoppable, powerful 4 second knock ups, and HP, compared to Darius. It makes Sion a different class of threatening: he’s fat like a Mundo, but doesn’t do nearly enough as a Darius.
MalignMetal2 votesHere is a Reminder 
The thigh guy2 votesHere is a Reminder
here’s a reminder.
MalignMetal1 votesIts more of a Visage.
Terchio2 votesTanks are not defined by CC. Enchanters and other fluffy supports are not tanks. Tanks soak damage. That's the definition. If you're asking whether juggernauts are enchanters, then yes, I agree, juggernauts never were enchanters. But tanks? Some Juggernauts tank better than most other tanks.
If you want a Warden, ask for a gorram Warden. However, don't pretend that Lux and Zyra are tankier than Garen and Mundo.
Socon6 votesTanks are not defined by CC. Enchanters and other fluffy supports are not tanks. Tanks soak damage. That's the definition. If you're asking whether juggernauts are enchanters, then yes, I agree, juggernauts never were enchanters. But tanks? Some Juggernauts tank better than most other tanks.
If you want a Warden, ask for a gorram Warden. However, don't pretend that Lux and Zyra are tankier than Garen and Mundo.
Are you saying enchanters use cc as their main thing? Enchanters buff other character or heal them. Lulu, soraka, janna, nami, etc.
Terchio2 votesBasically my point. You give me a list full of CC champions who have some other specialty on top, and yet the class can't be based on CC. Soraka, the ultimate LoL healer, has a slow, silence, and root by herself. But no, wardens and Vanguards are the CC specialists, so much so that apparently "it makes them tanky."
Thing is that's not true, never was. Tanky means you resist damage, plain and simple. If you can call wardens and vanguards tanky, but not anything on your list (all with 3 forms of CC apiece), you need to address what it actually means to be tanky.
We keep mixing up the definition of tanking because nobody wants a Mundo or Garen on an assassin team with limited CC. However, tanky still means resistant to damage, as it always has. When I'm building tanky, I'm not building 
.
Wolfeur7 votesTanks are defined by CC and damage-soaking.
NY641 votesSo how would Tahm be defined. To me he seems like a mix of both (mostly a juggernaut in my opinion). He can perform both but doesn’t excel at either.
