From "Never Surrender, Never Give up" Season2

GigglesO·Feb 19, 2018·87 votes·3,301 views

To FF at 5, first blood, I'm ready to be done with this game.

It is absolutely amazing how much I find my attitude towards this game has changed over the last 4 seasons.

Why aren't we addressing that there is an early game snowball issue? Why aren't we addressing that damage is super high?

Why are we turning what was once my favorite game into a game of "one shotting the enemy is fun"

I wouldn't bitch so much, if I didn't care so much.

Where is your player data saying that we like getting our asses nuked from low orbit?

111 Comments

MordepoolFeb 19, 201841 votes

Do you remember. "LOSE LANE WIN GAME"

^^^^^ WTF happened to that.

GibberwattFeb 19, 20188 votes

Bich I've done that in my last two ranked games. won the game with a total of two kills between the two games. It's not the game, its your inability to calm down and let [insert fed dude here] carry ur ass instead of going balls to the wall all the time.

MordepoolFeb 19, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Bich I've done that in my last two ranked games. won the game with a total of two kills between the two games. It's not the game, its your inability to calm down and let [insert fed dude here] carry ur ass instead of going balls to the wall all the time.

The game snowballs and throw an infernal or two in there and you never get the chance to outscale. I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm saying it's not common place anymore

GibberwattFeb 19, 20183 votes

That first bit, about snowballing. IdK what rank you are. I'm a lazy man, so I'll assume ur silver/gold (like me and a large portion of the community). But here in silver, I've found that if I die more than three times to an opponent, I'm not going to beat them in the near future. So I do my damnedest to not die twice. I die the first time, I take a chill pill. If my opponent does a stupid (which silvers do a lot), I stick myself out there and see if I can pick up a kill. If it isn't an easy win, I dip and come back later. If it works, me and lane buddy are now even, and I can go back to duking it out like normal. But the most important thing is to not die the second time. There is no situation where a dude who's one kill up can kill you regardless, unless you make a mistake.

MordepoolFeb 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That first bit, about snowballing. IdK what rank you are. I'm a lazy man, so I'll assume ur silver/gold (like me and a large portion of the community). But here in silver, I've found that if I die more than three times to an opponent, I'm not going to beat them in the near future. So I do my damnedest to not die twice. I die the first time, I take a chill pill. If my opponent does a stupid (which silvers do a lot), I stick myself out there and see if I can pick up a kill. If it isn't an easy win, I dip and come back later. If it works, me and lane buddy are now even, and I can go back to duking it out like normal. But the most important thing is to not die the second time. There is no situation where a dude who's one kill up can kill you regardless, unless you make a mistake.

I'm very aware of this thank you. My post is to highlight the lengths Riot has gone to add snowballing effects to the game. So if you go 0/1 in lane lose 1st dragon and 1st tower that's a huge deficit not insurmountable obviously.

but still it feeds into the 1st blood instant surrender vote mentality

GigglesOFeb 20, 20184 votes

You mean the 75% chance of winning for having first tower, blood, and dragon? 25% is a pretty shitty comeback odds.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-8-3-infographics

MordepoolFeb 20, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You mean the 75% chance of winning for having first tower, blood, and dragon? 25% is a pretty shitty comeback odds.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-8-3-infographics

That's exactly my point

GigglesOFeb 20, 20183 votes

Time to circle jerk true fucking statistics. I would love to see an argument against it...

Fanboy "But thats not ture"

Slams them with data. Fuck you, data didn't lie.

Sydney26Feb 20, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You mean the 75% chance of winning for having first tower, blood, and dragon? 25% is a pretty shitty comeback odds.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-8-3-infographics

25% is shitty comeback odds??? how high are the comeback odds if u surrender?? like 0%

ModWulf HelhammerFeb 20, 20181 votes

Hold on:

So you’re telling me a team that plus the early game well and secures early objectives shouldn’t have a higher chance of winning?

What kind of view is that?

GigglesOFeb 20, 20184 votes

Knowing that there is only a 25% chance of winning for something that happened minutes 1-7 leaves the game feel pretty empty.

Had two games (just last night) where we ended 3 inhibitors at the 19 (without surrender) last night. Those games were decided by the 7 minute mark: it just took the rest of the time to demolish everything.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 20, 20182 votes

The straw man is strong with this one today.

You can have anywhere from a 0-49% chance to win against that and the team who played the early game well would have a higher chance of winning. Why is 25% the right value?

Seriously, what kind of mod keeps trying to suppress discussion by espousing fallacies like this.

ModWulf HelhammerFeb 20, 20181 votes

I don't think you understand what the term "strawman" means.

I didn't misrepresent his argument. He finds a 75% chance of winning for a team that played early well and got early objectives and fights to be too high. Why? Why is that bad that a team that plays near perfectly shouldn't have a high chance of winning?

The game starts of at 50/50. As it goes on, the team that makes more mistakes starts losing that percentage. Unless first blood doesn't happen until teams have several item components, and get several people involved in it, that's not going to mean your tower is lost (and if they are doing all that, then again, they played for that advantage, and you should be doing something on the opposite side of the map).

Games shouldn't be a permanent near 50/50 split chance of winning. That's what makes boring games, and that's what causes players to leave en masse. When a game is no longer entertaining.

I'm not suppressing any kind of discussion. If you find pointing out things wrong in someone's argument counts as suppression, then that's your problem.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 20, 20184 votes

I didn't misrepresent his argument.

Yes you did. Right here when you said ...

So you’re telling me a team that plus the early game well and secures early objectives shouldn’t have a higher chance of winning?

You're misrepresenting his position as "good early plays shouldn't yield a higher chance of winning" which isn't at all what he said.

Textbook strawman.

Meanwhile ....

Games shouldn't be a permanent near 50/50 split chance of winning.

Games don't have to be 75/25 or 50/50 as you're now arguing, that's a black and white fallacy. They can be anywhere in between.

EDIT:

I'm not suppressing any kind of discussion.

Telling other people what they think instead of listening to what they think and responding in kind is suppressing discussion. That's the exact reason why rioters gave up on these boards. Ask them if you don't believe me (if you can find them that is).

GigglesOFeb 20, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Telling other people what they think instead of listening to what they think and responding in kind is suppressing discussion. That's the exact reason why rioters gave up on these boards. Ask them if you don't believe me (if you can find them that is).

Rioters do this all the time. They tell us what we want. We don't even get a real decision. IT takes months of bitching and moaning to finally get something done.

Its ok when we complain, and they push through something that we actually end up liking (ward quest on support items). It is something else entirely when we complain about the same shit for 6 months and nothing gets changed (ardent).

GigglesOFeb 20, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Telling other people what they think instead of listening to what they think and responding in kind is suppressing discussion. That's the exact reason why rioters gave up on these boards. Ask them if you don't believe me (if you can find them that is).

Rioters do this all the time. They tell us what we want. We don't even get a real decision. IT takes months of bitching and moaning to finally get something done.

GigglesOFeb 20, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yILgoOF6,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000200010000,timestamp=2018-02-20T18:00:44.026+0000)

I didn't misrepresent his argument. He finds a 75% chance of winning for a team that played early well and got early objectives and fights to be too high. Why? Why is that bad that a team that plays near perfectly shouldn't have a high chance of winning?

Because all of this can, and does happen in the first 10 minutes of the game. They also in turn end up power creeping everything to be competitive in that first 10 minutes. The reason you stalled out a game for the 40 minute mark is because you had a late game champion. Now all champs are relatively the same.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2723361014/33518097?tab=overview

Closed this game out by the 8 minute mark.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2723339747/33518097?tab=overview

Closed this one out before the 10.

It just took us 10 more minutes to push everything in our way down. I don't think that is something that isn't getting across. It takes 10 minutes to push everything down, so even if you are ahead enough to close out the game, it takes 10 minutes. IF games are lasting on average 23 minutes (which is what my last 20 games average at the time of this post) Games are decided by the 13 minute mark.

The game starts of at 50/50. As it goes on, the team that makes more mistakes starts losing that percentage. Unless first blood doesn't happen

Time of first blood has pretty much been decreasing every season. IT used to be difficult to die early game.

Games shouldn't be a permanent near 50/50 split chance of winning. That's what makes boring games, and that's what causes players to leave en masse. When a game is no longer entertaining.

It also isn't entertaining to get stomped so hard in the first 10 minutes with only 3 objectives that there is only a 25% chance of winning.

Just to give a few more examples

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2722905541/33518097?tab=overview

enemy 15 minute FF, had this one secured before the 10

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2722905541/33518097?tab=overview

Lets take a look at a 26 minute game... https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2722714412/33518097?tab=overview

Secured at the 16 minute mark...

IT TAKES 10 MINUTES TO FINISH THE ENEMY BASE, I actually somewhat enjoyed this game.

Even when the enemy has a chance of coming back because they get a really large kill the game is hard to comeback when you have to manage minion pressure, champion pressure, and teamfight.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2723217574/33518097?tab=overview

This game they easily could have "comeback" with that ace... but we had that first blood, first tower, first dragon, so we were allowed to just open up the map to win. If you look we even got baron, and the game ended...

MagicMaliceFeb 19, 201811 votes

It's still a thing, you just have to be willing to bide your time and look for opportunities to push your advantage. There's a lot of ways to make an advantage, but doing the same thing on repeat won't change your game state. Maybe your lane doesn't win, but help the guy who is doing well on your team. Find an advantage, and push it.

RocketRelmFeb 20, 20186 votes

It's still a thing, you and your team just have to be willing to bide your time and

Added the relevant bit.

PurpleKingCrazyFeb 20, 20185 votes

Still is a thing. I've lost lane but still won game in norms as Taliyah. :}

Taliyah

Feel ApathyFeb 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Do you remember. "LOSE LANE WIN GAME"

^^^^^ WTF happened to that.

People got better and take objectives instead of recalling after kills. Smarter and better people don't rush down mid every time a kill happens, they get dragon,herald,towers on the sides,push side lanes and take objectives there - instead of brute forcing a 5v4 and losing, because of a turret.

MordepoolFeb 20, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feel Apathy,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yILgoOF6,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2018-02-20T10:01:34.731+0000)

People got better and take objectives instead of recalling after kills. Smarter and better people don't rush down mid every time a kill happens, they get dragon,herald,towers on the sides,push side lanes and take objectives there - instead of brute forcing a 5v4 and losing, because of a turret.

Losing lane=/= going 0/3

Losing lane to me means surrendering Cs and possibly the tower because your lane opponents kit counters yours in some way but your champion should outscale them. Ei pantheon

Z3SleeperFeb 20, 20182 votes

Happens in basically every game I'm in. Life of a Yorick main.

TrollmanshipFeb 19, 201839 votes

"The Koreans open mid at 5 minutes so we decided we should just go ahead and make all games end at 5 minutes"

ModWulf HelhammerFeb 19, 201814 votes

It's a defeatist attitude that has started permeating the league community, which is a self fulfilling prophecy. Everyone has extremely snowbally games now and then, especially during preseason. So then people start thinking that all games are going like that, and that they can't win if they get behind early. So if they get behind in a game, they stop trying as much, stop putting in the effort that might actually win them the game. In turn, all this does is make all the complaints about snowball and "game is lost at 3 minutes" true, as everyone just gives up.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 20, 201821 votes

Ha, you're funny. As if the entire game hasn't been specifically designed to limit comeback potential for several years now.

ModWulf HelhammerFeb 20, 20184 votes

citation needed

Chromatic EagleFeb 20, 20189 votes

Isn’t Riot buffing Baron and Elder Drake to help close out games? On top of more snow balling mechanics?

ModWulf HelhammerFeb 20, 20181 votes

Snowball

game ending

Pick one or the other

AMYS GRAVEFeb 20, 20186 votes

The ability to decisively close the game from an advantage like baron aids in snowballing because it reduces time to mount a comeback.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 20, 20182 votes

Would you like me to link the patch notes for the past 2 1/2 years?

Auto pushing minions, increased death timers, dragon and baron buffs, power creeping the rune and mastery system to ensure no one has a weak early game, increasing gold gains, increasing exp gains, improving junglers early game with plants, support itemization buffs, cheaper items for the scaling classes, etc.... That's just off the top of my head.

Tomoe GozenFeb 20, 20182 votes

That's not true. I've been playing League for 8.5 years now. League has evolved a lot from its conception but that doesn't mean since the gameplay has changed from Season 1, that it's worse than it used to be. If it was, League wouldn't be able to keep the massive playerbase and be the top MOBA for years.

It is the defeatist attitude that's the issue. People aren't simply willing to fight for anything, they expect their games to be easy.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 20, 20185 votes

First off, league can have a large playerbase and still have problems. It can be getting worse while still maintaining a large playerbase. It can have problems while ... wait ... they haven't released player numbers for years now? Why's that? Hmmmm....

Best estimates of 2017 data have them at 81 million monthly players, while in 2016 they had 100 million monthly players.

It is the defeatist attitude that's the issue.

This as an argument immediately dismisses any feedback on the current state of the game. It is impossible to give any criticism for the state of the game in the face of your attitude without being dismissed as defeatist. You are shutting down any conversation that can be had, and the lack of ability to have a conversation is the problem with these boards, and is why riot doesn't take us seriously anymore.

GigglesOFeb 20, 20182 votes

Take my upvote.

Tomoe GozenFeb 20, 20182 votes

This as an argument immediately dismisses any feedback on the current state of the game.

It doesn't dismiss anything because my experience in playing actual League says people give up too soon when things get hard. You're assuming players only complain because there are things to complain about and that's only a "half"-truth. I'm not saying that League is perfectly balanced and that there are no problems to be addressed but many, many times the "complaints" are intentionally thrown here because people don't want to strategize against their opponents, they want Riot to nerf them because that's the easier option.

First off, league can have a large playerbase and still have problems. It can be getting worse while still maintaining a large playerbase.

No, it can't. If the game doesn't serve the playerbase in general, who'd play such a game or be willing to sustain it?
I guess that No Man's Sky is still alive after Sean Murray promised things that weren't in the game?
League has had years to build its playerbase so it wouldn't disappear in a day but if people have been leaving in big numbers, we'd all certainly feel the effects in terms of queue times.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 20, 20181 votes

but if people have been leaving in big numbers,

Someone didn't read my post which cites an estimated 20% decline in playerbase.

Tomoe GozenFeb 20, 20182 votes

cites an estimated 20% decline

How can you cite me an estimate? If you're citing me actual proof, then it has to be conclusive.

A quote from one of your links:

Articles from both the RiftHerald and Forbes both point towards a new monthly player base figure of 100 million active monthly players. While these statistics sound great, it's best to wait until you hear the same figures from Riot.

MarshbouyFeb 20, 201812 votes

I totally agree.

I think that most games are winnable and that "The Boards" just tries to exaggerate things constantly to draw blame away from themselves.

A first blood does not mean you lost game. A first blood tower does not mean you lost game. A Herald does not mean you lost game. An infernal does not mean you lost game.

Your Nexus being destroyed means you lost the game. For the love of god, don't call GG at 4 min when your bot lane dies. It's gonna be fuckin fine as long as you play it safe and smart.

Michael SykesFeb 20, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I totally agree.

I think that most games are winnable and that "The Boards" just tries to exaggerate things constantly to draw blame away from themselves.

A first blood does not mean you lost game. A first blood tower does not mean you lost game. A Herald does not mean you lost game. An infernal does not mean you lost game.

Your Nexus being destroyed means you lost the game. For the love of god, don't call GG at 4 min when your bot lane dies. It's gonna be fuckin fine as long as you play it safe and smart.

It's definitely not only the game, it is also a mentality among the players that has been rising until now. Doesn't mean that the game's Balancing is not a problem though

The Yetii RiderFeb 20, 20187 votes

Why is there a problem with surrendering? Surrendering is a positive thing. It prevents tilt. It helps you move on to the next game. The players who won get to move on and the players who lost get a chance to learn from their mistakes more quickly instead of focusing on new plays that are less relevant to their actual mistakes in the early game.

TheThundersRoarFeb 20, 20189 votes

Giving up is (usually) a good thing in this situation:

Guys, it's 20 minutes, nobody finished their 2nd item, the score is 3/32, and the only reason they haven't ended is because they're trying to push the side lanes.

Giving up is (or should be) a bad thing in this situation:

Guys, we got counter-ganked bot and the enemy ADC/jungler is now 3/0 at 4 minutes. I'm AFK until 15.

The problem with the game is that giving up in the 2nd situation is becoming more and more logical.

FragglerocFeb 20, 20185 votes

I think this snowball issue is the reason why the pros play so passively as well.

Just watch this KSV - KT game now... its pure ResidentSleeper.

GigglesOFeb 20, 20182 votes

Why go in when one mistake means you pretty much lose the game for your team?

First kill allows first tower, which makes for an easier first dragon. The three combined have about 75% winrate.

HollowMimicFeb 20, 20183 votes

I wish it's not so snowbally then.

Give us teamfighting action with recovery actions Rito bros :) @Meddler

CPU LyricaFeb 20, 20184 votes

Nahhh what do you mean? you let me hit you with my Lux Q, you deserve to be hit with my full combo + Adc dmg, and lose half your health bar, if not more!.

Obviously mostly joking, albeit it is very satisfying to see big numbers =v=

Mig89Feb 20, 20184 votes

You might be joking but getting hit by a lux q while being caught out alone or in a teamfight as a squishy can be and should be a death sentence in most cases. Its a slow moving obvious projectile that snares for (I think 2 seconds) If you get caught by a lux who is with their ADC you should die unless youre a half built tank

HolgranthFeb 20, 20182 votes

I remember people saying gg at first blood during season 1.

FCJAAAAGOOOOFeb 20, 20189 votes

To be fair Free Win LeeSin and Win Nhao XinZhao were not a part of the game/broken beyond belief for the majority of season 1. Granted they both had their uhh.....time to shine.