I'll just leave this here for Riot to look back on

THE RlVER KlNG·Jan 17, 2017·15 votes·1,216 views

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/tips-tricks/RE7XxFM8-dont-use-this-sion-ult-mechanic-or-youll-get-banned?comment=008a

{quoted}

But regardless of whether it was unintended or not it's on us to fix or disable the champion. Especially due to how easy it was to duplicate with only the vanilla LoL client. If we have no indication that the unintended behavior was done consistently and with the intent to create an unfair advantage it's not right for us to maintain a ban on a player's account for using it.

I say this, because there may be points in the future where a bug or unintended interaction is accidentally added to the game which could provide an unfair advantage to players. We do reserve the right to permanently ban any player who exploits this interaction to their advantage. An example of that could be the ZZ'rot's portal bug back in January. Were a player found to be using it to purposely win games, they would be removed. However, a player who accidentally triggered it would be safe.

hue hue

28 Comments

cinomenapplebaeJan 17, 20173 votes

As a Riven main honestly I wouldn't mind if they removed the cc canceling stuff. If the animation canceling was improvised and polished better I'd really enjoy that.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 17, 20178 votes

As a non-RIven player I think her interaction with bugs in the game code is an embarrassment. She's pretty shit if you don't know what you're doing, but once you master animation canceling you literally become one of if not the most powerful champions in the game. It becomes up to you to lose a lane as a skilled RIven because you have all the tools to completely decimate your opponent with very little reaction on their part.

I think encouraging Riven to weave in autos between her spells, and her being a mobile champion, is fine, but her getting the sheer amount of tools she does to succeed is not. A champion's weakness should not be that they are hard - this supposed weakness can be circumvented with time and practice and then leaves a champion with little to no flaws. This problem has existed in the past in champions like old Ryze and immediately post-rework Fiora, as well as Nidalee when she was strong. The ghost of it also lives on in Vayne, Yasuo, Lee Sin, etc.

Asayake 5150glowJan 17, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGQj3mva,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T22:16:08.119+0000)

As a non-RIven player I think her interaction with bugs in the game code is an embarrassment. She's pretty shit if you don't know what you're doing, but once you master animation canceling you literally become one of if not the most powerful champions in the game. It becomes up to you to lose a lane as a skilled RIven because you have all the tools to completely decimate your opponent with very little reaction on their part.

I think encouraging Riven to weave in autos between her spells, and her being a mobile champion, is fine, but her getting the sheer amount of tools she does to succeed is not. A champion's weakness should not be that they are hard - this supposed weakness can be circumvented with time and practice and then leaves a champion with little to no flaws. This problem has existed in the past in champions like old Ryze and immediately post-rework Fiora, as well as Nidalee when she was strong. The ghost of it also lives on in Vayne, Yasuo, Lee Sin, etc.

Riven's only interaction with bugs that has not been removed is... CC canceling.

Animation canceling has been stated by Riot to be an intended feature.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 17, 20174 votes

It's a gimmick that circumvents game code and not healthy for the game. It allows her to output more consistent DPS than should be allowed on any champion and is nearly impossible to notice and/or discern, thus existing largely as invisible power, a massive no-no in balance that Riot has cracked down on in the past (auras, Fizz W, etc.).

Asayake 5150glowJan 17, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGQj3mva,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T22:45:09.608+0000)

It's a gimmick that circumvents game code and not healthy for the game. It allows her to output more consistent DPS than should be allowed on any champion and is nearly impossible to notice and/or discern, thus existing largely as invisible power, a massive no-no in balance that Riot has cracked down on in the past (auras, Fizz W, etc.).

It does not circumvent game code and actually exists on many champions. It's the same exact thing as kiting, except with abilities, and the one reason it is different is because it's also an auto attack reset, allowing her to auto attack very quickly when canceling correctly. An example of who else it exists on: Lucian. Have you ever Q'd, then tried autoing again? Well there's usually a big delay - one that be canceled by clicking on the ground and then autoing again, exactly like Riven's Q.

Doublecasting and E+R'ing don't exist on anyone else, but they are definitely not invisible. They also don't give her too much damage - a melee burst carry who has no good gapcloser that can't oneshot carries is useless

THE RlVER KlNGJan 17, 20171 votes

Did you just call Riven a carry who has no good gapcloser when she has 4 dashes, or that she can't oneshot carries? Riven obliterates any squishy champion she gets onto by virtue of her 2 hard CCs and extreme melee damage. Aside from Jhin, Kled, Caitlyn, and perhaps a few Juggernauts, she scales off of AD harder than almost any champion in the game.

Asayake 5150glowJan 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGQj3mva,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-17T23:51:21.076+0000)

Did you just call Riven a carry who has no good gapcloser when she has 4 dashes, or that she can't oneshot carries? Riven obliterates any squishy champion she gets onto by virtue of her 2 hard CCs and extreme melee damage. Aside from Jhin, Kled, Caitlyn, and perhaps a few Juggernauts, she scales off of AD harder than almost any champion in the game.

You have never played Riven if you think those 4 dashes will help you get into range of a carry in teamfights.

I said she can oneshot carries, but she probably wouldn't be able to without charging her third Q if she couldn't doublecast/E+R.

And so what if she does? She is a fairly squishy (although not super squishy) melee range carry who can't get into melee range without burning at least her shield a one Q.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 18, 20171 votes

I have played RIven, and against her. Trying to escape or chase one is a non-issue thanks to how absurdly mobile she is.

She is far from squishy. She has high bases stats for a slayer and her 210 + 100% bonus AD scaling shield is up every 3.5 seconds or so. Some of her favorite items, like BC, Death's Dance, and Gage all give her health, and her lifesteal builds are flat out disgusting. You want to fight her mid-lategame? Too bad, she has a large shield, high bases, health and resistances from items, and free AD to add to the amount she is healing back every auto (which she does a lot, thanks to animation canceling).

You keep using the same poor excuse. "She has to burn 1-2 of her 4 dashes to get in range boo hoo" can you hear yourself? 1-2 dashes OUT OF 4.

Let's not even mention the AoE ranged execute.

Asayake 5150glowJan 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGQj3mva,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T00:55:58.574+0000)

I have played RIven, and against her. Trying to escape or chase one is a non-issue thanks to how absurdly mobile she is.

She is far from squishy. She has high bases stats for a slayer and her 210 + 100% bonus AD scaling shield is up every 3.5 seconds or so. Some of her favorite items, like BC, Death's Dance, and Gage all give her health, and her lifesteal builds are flat out disgusting. You want to fight her mid-lategame? Too bad, she has a large shield, high bases, health and resistances from items, and free AD to add to the amount she is healing back every auto (which she does a lot, thanks to animation canceling).

You keep using the same poor excuse. "She has to burn 1-2 of her 4 dashes to get in range boo hoo" can you hear yourself? 1-2 dashes OUT OF 4.

Let's not even mention the AoE ranged execute.

Cool. Why is a Riven chasing you again? Did you get caught out of position and she is trying to punish you for it? You would be dead instantly if it was a Kha'Zix or Zed. They don't need to waste time chasing you down, while your teammates are coming to help you.

Also, if you had any idea of how to play against Riven, you would turn around and oneshot her the moment she burned her primary damage source, as well as her defensive ability.

She has shit base stats for a slayer, please.

This was literally copypasted. I'm the same guy, btw. At least I have the decency write out my response.

Yeah. You know how many dashes EVERY OTHER FIGHTER/TANK/ASSASSIN in the game needs to burn? None. And then they aren't even burning them - they're using them, because they're actually hitting you and they aren't wasting 1/2 of the ability by not using it as an autoattack reset.

Also, that's not a 1-2. That's a 2-3. If a Riven got into range of 1 dash, you are either laning against her as a melee, or a severely out of position anything else.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 18, 20171 votes

Wow, its almost like I realized I put the response into the wrong reply I was writing to your numerous idiotic comments. No need to be a dick, but I guess you don't have very many valid points to argue in the first place, so you needed a placeholder.

I nearly died of laughter when I saw you had written the counterplay is to 'turn around and one-shot a Riven'. What game are you playing?

"She has shit bases stats for a slayer, please" I won't spend another minute of my times giving you exact numbers while you spew exaggerations.

You're spouting nonsense. Assassins and fighters and tanks don't need to burn dashes? What the fuck? Bladesurge, Leap Strike, Arctic Assault, Elastic Slingshot, Pulverize, Alpha Strike, Aegis of Zeonia, Dragon's Descent, Jousting, Body Slam, Lunge, Urchin Strike.......the list goes on.

You go on an on about how healthy and great animation canceling is and then call it a waste of an ability.

Asayake 5150glowJan 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGQj3mva,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T01:41:46.758+0000)

Wow, its almost like I realized I put the response into the wrong reply I was writing to your numerous idiotic comments. No need to be a dick, but I guess you don't have very many valid points to argue in the first place, so you needed a placeholder.

I nearly died of laughter when I saw you had written the counterplay is to 'turn around and one-shot a Riven'. What game are you playing?

"She has shit bases stats for a slayer, please" I won't spend another minute of my times giving you exact numbers while you spew exaggerations.

You're spouting nonsense. Assassins and fighters and tanks don't need to burn dashes? What the fuck? Bladesurge, Leap Strike, Arctic Assault, Elastic Slingshot, Pulverize, Alpha Strike, Aegis of Zeonia, Dragon's Descent, Jousting, Body Slam, Lunge, Urchin Strike.......the list goes on.

You go on an on about how healthy and great animation canceling is and then call it a waste of an ability.

I've done with Katarina prerework. You should be able to do it with any other assassin or mage. Hell, Lux can easily oneshot a RIven who is in the middle of her Q and thus can't dodge.

If you say so.

Problem is, when Jax uses Leap Strike, he isn't burning the dash. He's using. If Jax Q wasn't an auto attack reset, and if it only did damage if it actually hit his target, then it would be 'burning'. RIven dashing at you wastes her auto attack reset as well as the Q damage, since half the time it doesn't actually hit you.

DrCyanideJan 18, 20176 votes

I can never think of pro-animation canceling arguments without thinking about Ezreal. His ult windup is an animation, which is why you can displace him or stun him and it still goes off from where he was. Can you imagine how much extra power Ezreal would have if he could cancel that animation? Even if the ult still fired from where it was, he could auto attack or Q while firing his ultimate.

I don't think anyone can say that it would be better to balance Ezreal around such an animation canceling than it would be to remove it, yet that's the argument that gets made for Riven time and time again.

Asayake 5150glowJan 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I can never think of pro-animation canceling arguments without thinking about Ezreal. His ult windup is an animation, which is why you can displace him or stun him and it still goes off from where he was. Can you imagine how much extra power Ezreal would have if he could cancel that animation? Even if the ult still fired from where it was, he could auto attack or Q while firing his ultimate.

I don't think anyone can say that it would be better to balance Ezreal around such an animation canceling than it would be to remove it, yet that's the argument that gets made for Riven time and time again.

Because Ezreal isn't balanced around animation canceling, and he doesn't rely on animation canceling to do his damage quickly. Without animation canceling, a Riven would have no element of surprise when going in, no heavy burst when going in, and worse DPS than any other fighter, while having no proper gapcloser (there is a difference, and there are both upsides and downsides to it), one of the shortest stuns in the game, and a delayed knock up that would be delayed even further without canceling.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 18, 20172 votes

You're a Riven main with a 34% winrate on her. Your incredible bias is bleeding through heavily, and its not pretty.

And contrary to what you think, Riven is not slow, or clunky, or delayed - her E-W is nearly instant and gives her all the tools to safely harass in lane. Q-Q-and then holding 3rd Q is enough to zone a champion away from a wave for several seconds. Animation canceling only exacerbates this. She is manalessand has nothing to manage outside of cooldowns, which are some of the lowest in the game.

'Worse DPS than any other fighter' You mean equal DPS to every other figher, instead of cheating and circumventing how autos and spell animations work? "Element of surprise" what does a mobile, CC DPS machine like RIven need the element of surprise for?

Asayake 5150glowJan 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGQj3mva,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T00:55:19.986+0000)

You're a Riven main with a 34% winrate on her. Your incredible bias is bleeding through heavily, and its not pretty.

And contrary to what you think, Riven is not slow, or clunk, or delayed - her E-W is nearly instant and gives her all the tools to safely harass in lane. Q-Q-and then holding 3rd Q is enough to zone a champion away from a wave for several seconds. Animation canceling only exacerbates this. She is manalessand has nothing to manage outside of cooldowns, which are some of the lowest in the game.

She is far from squishy. She has high bases stats for a slayer and her 210 + 100% bonus AD scaling shield is up every 3.5 seconds or so. Some of her favorite items, like BC, Death's Dance, and Gage all give her health, and her lifesteal builds are flat out disgusting. You want to fight her mid-lategame? Too bad, she has a large shield, high bases, health and resistances from items, and free AD to add to the amount she is healing back every auto (which she does a lot, thanks to animation canceling).

'Worse DPS than any other fighter' You mean equal DPS to every other figher, instead of cheating and circumventing how autos and spell animations work? "Element of surprise" what does a mobile, CC DPS machine like RIven need the element of surprise for?

Yeah? How?

Except holding third Q isn't enough to zone anyone from anything, early game, because it will tap them for 50 damage and then she runs away. Her combo is definitely slow compared to something like Jayce, because it takes 2 seconds to perform a fully canceled fast combo.

Her cooldowns are all double digits early game. Q stays at a constant 13.

She has shit base stats for anything. Her AD is adc level (56), her regen is shit, her armor is average at best, and her mr is ok. Her range is lowest in game (125), and her movespeed is decent.

Riven's rarely ever build Death's Dance, and gage is commonly their defensive item. Her lethality builds are much deadlier than her lifesteal builds - that's the flash into enemy team oneshot all of them build.

Where the fuck does Riven get resists from items? Her bases are absolute shit compared to the likes of Trundle XinZhao .

No, I mean worse. Try face tanking a Tryndamere, Trundle, Yi, or Jax. You'll lose the fight 10 out of 10 of the time if you aren't fed.

You clearly don't know how spells and autos work then. Nearly any ability's animation in the game can be canceled with move commands (Xerath's W and E, for example, Luci's Q, another example), and Riven's Q is an auto attack reset. How can you call it cheating if the makers of the rules have deemed it a mechanic? Riven is just pretty much the only champion with an auto attack reset that is not an autoattack empowering ability.

You haven't seen a Riven try to use her 'mobility' to get to a carry until you've seen a Riven run in 1v5, using only E and Q to get into range, either dying or barely getting in range, and then if she does get into range, do no damage due to having no Q's left. Riven's W lasts for .75 seconds, and the animation takes .25 seconds, canceled. Riven is not a DPS machine, due to having cooldowns (her fast combo damage is slightly more than those of autoattack based duelists, but due to having around 3 seconds in between each Q combo, her DPS is actually pretty bad.

Riven without the element of surprise is a Riven who will get shit done against anything other than the tank (unless they're peeling for their carries, but they should only do that if they're behind).

You clearly don't know shit about Riven - you haven't used the word 'burst' once to describe her.

THE RlVER KlNGJan 18, 20171 votes

Third Q grants her hard CC and an easy proc on her passive.

Her Q (arguably the only basic in her kit with a 'long cooldown') has its cooldown start after the first cast, meaning its cooldown is waaaaay more like 5-6 seconds than 13. Same logic applies to LB's W< whose cooldown starts after cast and not when the return pad is used or disappears. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/qFnEAL2v-make-rivens-q-cooldown-start-after-the-third-q

Maybe that's because she gets free AD from her ult, and her passive scales off AD? MF has garbage base AD (even worse than Riven) because she artificialy increases the damage of her autos through her passive. Same goes for RIven. Its like SIon having low base health because he can stack it passively. Her range is the same as every melee assasin/slayer in the game save for Fizz, Vi with her E, and Wu with his Q and Kha with evolved claws.

You're going to complain about two champions whose kits are designed to 1v1 and have none of the mobility or CC Riven has?

^^^^

Animation canceling is a flawed system. The whole purpose of an ability is that in order to receive the benefits of what it does you have to pay with a slight cast time or channel. What if Karthus's ult was instantaneous? Or Jhin's? Or Fiddlestick's? Riven being able to abuse a gimmick in the code is as toxic as Cait being allowed to triple headshot someone by doing the same thing.

If a Riven runs in 1v5 then she's an idiot, I don't know what you're trying to prove. A skilled Riven can easily fight multiple champions at once thanks to her spammable shield and CC, but okay. Riven IS DPS machine, contrary to what you may be telling yourself at night.

You keep making excuses about RIven as if she is slow, by comparing her to herself. Boohoo, she has to wait 3 seconds between Q casts? Welcome to the world of cooldowns, buddy. Riven is not a stealth assassin, I don't even know what you're rambling about with this element of surprise nonsense.

Clearly you don't know very much either, considering you have a 34% winrate over almost 50 games.

Asayake 5150glowJan 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yGQj3mva,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T01:34:52.453+0000)

Third Q grants her hard CC and an easy proc on her passive.

Her Q (arguably the only basic in her kit with a 'long cooldown') has its cooldown start after the first cast, meaning its cooldown is waaaaay more like 5-6 seconds than 13. Same logic applies to LB's W< whose cooldown starts after cast and not when the return pad is used or disappears. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/qFnEAL2v-make-rivens-q-cooldown-start-after-the-third-q

Maybe that's because she gets free AD from her ult, and her passive scales off AD? MF has garbage base AD (even worse than Riven) because she artificialy increases the damage of her autos through her passive. Same goes for RIven. Its like SIon having low base health because he can stack it passively. Her range is the same as every melee assasin/slayer in the game save for Fizz, Vi with her E, and Wu with his Q and Kha with evolved claws.

You're going to complain about two champions whose kits are designed to 1v1 and have none of the mobility or CC Riven has?

^^^^

Animation canceling is a flawed system. The whole purpose of an ability is that in order to receive the benefits of what it does you have to pay with a slight cast time or channel. What if Karthus's ult was instantaneous? Or Jhin's? Or Fiddlestick's? Riven being able to abuse a gimmick in the code is as toxic as Cait being allowed to triple headshot someone by doing the same thing.

If a Riven runs in 1v5 then she's an idiot, I don't know what you're trying to prove. A skilled Riven can easily fight multiple champions at once thanks to her spammable shield and CC, but okay. Riven IS DPS machine, contrary to what you may be telling yourself at night.

You keep making excuses about RIven as if she is slow, by comparing her to herself. Boohoo, she has to wait 3 seconds between Q casts? Welcome to the world of cooldowns, buddy. Riven is not a stealth assassin, I don't even know what you're rambling about with this element of surprise nonsense.

Clearly you don't know very much either, considering you have a 34% winrate over almost 50 games.

It's 5-6 seconds if she's extending. Which means she's not fast combo'ing. Seriously.

And so? It's an ability. Do you give Ryze shit mana and damage because he gets extra mana and damage from building ap and mana? That's a strength, not something to be balanced out.

DrCyanideJan 18, 20173 votes

The question becomes "Why not actually balance Riven around not having animation canceling instead?"

You agreed that they've already taken steps to try and balance Riven around animation canceling, and that it wouldn't make sense to try to balance a champion like Ezreal around animation canceling, so why not make Riven's balance less dependent on her weird, quirky, hard to balance mechanic?

Speed up her animations or remove them where they don't make sense, putting her on par with every other champion that has animations for their spells.

Edge of DaybreakJan 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The question becomes "Why not actually balance Riven around not having animation canceling instead?"

They tried that and it resulted in her being stronger both times so they didn't go through with it.

Asayake 5150glowJan 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The question becomes "Why not actually balance Riven around not having animation canceling instead?"

You agreed that they've already taken steps to try and balance Riven around animation canceling, and that it wouldn't make sense to try to balance a champion like Ezreal around animation canceling, so why not make Riven's balance less dependent on her weird, quirky, hard to balance mechanic?

Speed up her animations or remove them where they don't make sense, putting her on par with every other champion that has animations for their spells.

Because why the fuck would you?

It's an easy way to gate Riven's potential through skill, and it only speeds up her fast combo by .5-1 seconds, which is noticable but really not too much.

If you aren't animation canceling with any champion in the game, you're wasting time. Did you know that kiting is animation canceling?

Speeding up her animations would make her much too easy and would mean nerfs to bring her to Garen level.

DrCyanideJan 18, 20172 votes

It's an easy way to gate Riven's potential through skill

Shouldn't her skill be gated the same way other champion's skill is gated, by using their abilities in the the way that's best for the situation?

I'm not really seeing a good reason why her skill should be measured in an arbitrarily different way than the 130+ other champions in this game.

Did you know that kiting is animation canceling?

It's auto attack animation canceling, not ability animation canceling.

Speeding up her animations would make her much too easy and would mean nerfs to bring her to Garen level.

Or, more likely, put her on Lee Sin's level. Or Zeds. Or LeBlanc's.

Again, correct use of skills in a situation is what would determine skill with Riven, in much the same way that it determines skill on every other high skill champion.

Asayake 5150glowJan 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Shouldn't her skill be gated the same way other champion's skill is gated, by using their abilities in the the way that's best for the situation?

I'm not really seeing a good reason why her skill should be measured in an arbitrarily different way than the 130+ other champions in this game.

It's auto attack animation canceling, not ability animation canceling.

Or, more likely, put her on Lee Sin's level. Or Zeds. Or LeBlanc's.

Again, correct use of skills in a situation is what would determine skill with Riven, in much the same way that it determines skill on every other high skill champion.

She's gated by both, which is why she's so difficult.

It's. The. Same. Fucking. Thing.

Play Xerath. You can cancel E and W animations with move commands. You can see it most clearly with his W, his arms will be wide apart as he moves, where if you don't cancel the animation, he just stands there with arms spread.

Lee requires fast fingers and reactions. Zed really isn't all that difficult and is much more calculated (energy). Leblanc is not hard anymore.

ApocalypsicJan 17, 20171 votes

Same. Could give two shits about the CC "cancels"

It's honestly better to just dodge CC instead of trying to face tank it anyway.

Asayake 5150glowJan 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

As a Riven main honestly I wouldn't mind if they removed the cc canceling stuff. If the animation canceling was improvised and polished better I'd really enjoy that.

Animation canceling doesn't need improving and polishing...? Yes the delay on doublecast is weird, and not being able to fully cancel R animation with E is too, but it's fine the way it is. Gives them a little time to react.

ModAcademy KaynJan 18, 20171 votes

Because one of those bugs are actually champion specific, and the other is due to the coding of all dashes in the game. I wonder which belongs to which.

Edge of DaybreakJan 18, 20171 votes

You're comparing a bug that could be done easily by anyone by pressing a button vs a bug that requires is harder to do and not very impactful to the champions overall strength. If we disabled every champion someone didnt like because they had a small bug we wouldnt have many champions left to play. There would just be the client and it's spaghetti.

JustARivenMainJan 19, 20171 votes

Holy Arguments, Animation canceling is part of her kit according to Riot, and the CC cancel shit is a bug with all people with dashes, they'll dash but still go to their destination or "break it" but they will still be stunned or cc'd for the duration. See Trist W or Ez E.

I don't want to start shit, just reading this late at night is eugh.