ADC Problem - Not the ADCs.

JustaNewb·Apr 13, 2018·25 votes·9,716 views

It's their items. The ADCs, most of them, have been around a -long- time. They were always annoying, but not this Oppressive. What changed? Their items:

Statikk Shiv: Hey, move faster and have some crit and AS... NICE CRIT... let's add 600 to it in magic damage.
Phantom Dancer: Yeah, they took dodge off me and I seemed lost for years... but now I can make you tough, while amping every trait you need to murder... also have some MORE MS.
Firecannon: Psst... have some MORE MS... also, since you guys already have the longest range in the game? Have some more. Oh yeah I improve everything you need to murder faster too.
Death's Dance: Yo. Now that the only way to stop you is to instantly burst you down, lemme fix that. Btw have some sustain, and moar stats.
Guinsoo's Rageblade: Oh yeah? Hold my beer.

Etc etc.

I mean it when I say Items have gone insane.

21 Comments

VoraciousXApr 14, 201811 votes

AT THE VERY LEAST Fleet Footwork should only give the MS boost on champion hits. ADCs used to be extremely immobile somewhat easy to get to champions. Now they're kiting gods with tanky shieldbots.

AirKingNeoApr 14, 20187 votes

Just remove the AS. The rune shouldn't remove all weaknesses.

VoraciousXApr 14, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Just remove the AS. The rune shouldn't remove all weaknesses.

If you mean MS(cuz it doesn't give AS), they can't really have a rune named Fleet Footwork without it having movement speed. They could remove the healing, but then it'd just be a better phase rush(though it already pretty much is).

{quoted}

ADC itemization and runes, in general, are the problem. At this point, the runes just are limiting the game too much. They are killing off diversity while powercreeping a lot simultaneously. Honestly going back to season 5 runes and masteries would be healthier for the game at this point, making runes free of course.

ADC itemization needs to be adjusted before we get any more real changes to adcs. I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening anymore though. How long ago did they say they knew it was an issue? Yet they have done nothing to really address the problem. We got a band-aid fix for it and that will likely be it.

The runes add more diversity than any other rune system we've had so far as far as playstyle goes. With ADCs it doesn't offer much in the way of variety, but that's because they only have one OP rune at a time(because they refuse to make fleet footwork only work on champions). Many champions can use multiple runes for whatever they want. Heck Katarina can use grasp to near perfect effect, if you want her to. It's not the BEST rune but it can certainly work. Dark Harvest Yorick is really powerful. GP can even use Dark Harvest on his Q(though Klepto helps him get his powerspikes earlier, but so does his Q so it's kinda doubling down). There are all kinds of secondary runes to use however you want as well, and they're all really good choices. I don't think the rune system is killing diversity any more than any other rune system did(because we all know that everyone used an exact rune page depending on the champion with the old runes/masteries, and every iteration after that until now).

As for crit, I'm pretty sure I remember them saying that their goal was to work on crit at some point(I believe midseason or something). Can't say the time with 100% accuracy, but just because it isn't being added RIGHT NOW doesn't mean it's something they're just avoiding doing altogether. That said, yeah, we have needed crit changes for a long time, but you have to also realize that crit changes would be one of the biggest types of reworks in the game. It doesn't just affect one champion, it affects an entire class of champions, AS WELL AS other champions not in that class( MasterYi Tryndamere Yasuo ). It's not some one and done mini project. Hell look at how much time it's taking for them to decide what to do with Ahri and that's just ONE champion.

OnanThaManApr 14, 20186 votes

ADC itemization and runes, in general, are the problem. At this point, the runes just are limiting the game too much. They are killing off diversity while powercreeping a lot simultaneously. Honestly going back to season 5 runes and masteries would be healthier for the game at this point, making runes free of course.

ADC itemization needs to be adjusted before we get any more real changes to adcs. I wouldn't hold my breath on that happening anymore though. How long ago did they say they knew it was an issue? Yet they have done nothing to really address the problem. We got a band-aid fix for it and that will likely be it.

AirKingNeoApr 14, 20185 votes

Firecannon: Psst... have some MORE MS... also, since you guys already have the longest range in the game? Have some more. Oh yeah I improve everything you need to murder faster too.

Describes item

doesn't explain or give a reason why it's 'problematic'

And that's the entire post. You point fingers but prove nothing.

JustaNewbApr 14, 20186 votes

If you can't see the inherent problem in every single item granting more damage output, more burst, AND more kiting ablility/Chase ability? I can't help you.

Every single item listed amplifies the capacity of AD champions, completely, boosting every single stat they need.

AirKingNeoApr 14, 20183 votes

Except most of the items you listed don't give burst. Also there's a shit load of items that increase damage and let you kite/chase. Black Cleaver?

Every single item listed amplifies the capacity of AD champions, completely, boosting every single stat they need.

Shiv, RFC, and PD don't give AD. DD doesn't give AS or Crit, and only ~2 ADCs build it. Rageblade doesn't give Crit and is built on 4 ranged champions.

Again, your post is literally "it does this, so it's broken" without explaining why it is broken.

ThefrostyvikingApr 13, 20183 votes

There are some cases of questionable design as well.

Vayne,Tristana, Twitch and i´d say even Lucian belong to this category, but particularly the first 3.

Their very kits make playing against them a nightmare that gradually intensifies up to a point where it explodes.

Lucian is more towards the direction of just being a complete pain in the ass whenever he works because he kinda runs over everyone else.

TehNACHOApr 14, 20182 votes

Well it's a tad redundant of a distinction, the ADC class is (partially) defined by the fact that their scaling is so much more intertwined with items.

JackMcSnipeyzApr 15, 20182 votes

You're pointing it out like movespeed on zeal items wasnt always tacked on for most of the game's life span. All classes have items that grant movespeed, most champs have higher base movespeed than marksmen. There's nothing wrong with zeal items giving 5% movespeed, it's not what breaks the items.

The problem is the synergy between Statik and crit and the reduces prices of adc items. Up the cost, deley the power spike, nerf statik shiv and give it a niche, either small burst window or wave clear. Maybe shave some AD over IE.

Barely any adc builds life steal, let alone Death's dance, and rage blade is a problem on EVERY champ who can abuse it.

JustaNewbApr 15, 20181 votes

Well, the MS was the problem I was having that day, because many of the hyperscaling ADCs grant themselves MS as well. Most of my favorite champs are Melee who have had their MS nerfed for awhile.

Either way, yeah, I wasn't entirely trying to just focus on the MS either.

JackMcSnipeyzApr 15, 20182 votes

Most melee champs have infinitly more mobility than carries. I exclude tristana because she is busted and any complaint about her safety i 100% agree on. An adc wont out run any melee champ other than some immobile jugger nauts, if the distance to safety is long enough, melee's will outrun most marksmen.

kaironenApr 13, 20181 votes

Imo, the problem with adc is the Rapidfire Cannon and Shiv combo. That combo should not coexist. Phantom dancer and deathdance are unique issues to I think draven and kaisa. Rest of the adcs except as a last item when selling boots don't really use them (specifically deathdance). Deathdance is more of a riven/fiora item and it also works well on draven/kaisa but no other adc except a few like ezreal/mf really buy it. Guinsoo's Rageblade imo should be the infinity edge of on hit builds. However, the item itself is too cost efficient imo. I think it should scale slightly harder off onhit items and onhit abilities but be weaker as a 1st to 3 items. The ms on the adc items isn't a problem imo. They always had ms items on them and it never was an issue, it's just the 5-10 ad buff on ie/er + the low cost of zeal items + rapidfire/shiv combo that made adc slightly too strong. However, adcs imo aren't as broken as they seem, it's just damage being overall too high in the game right now. Only really the rapidfire/shiv combo and rageblade being op atm.

LordGeovanniApr 14, 20181 votes

Its their items and their design pholosophy. They cant be safe doing tons of damage And be fast and have free excapes. item 3086 fast same thing with mages item 3113 item 3040 item 3102 (has comparable magic reist to most tank items) item 3027 (has more raw hp than most tank items)

yoshi2790Apr 15, 20181 votes

Ashe Draven Jinx Jhin KogMaw MissFortune Sivir Twitch Vayne Xayah Quinn Varus What do you mean free escapes?

I can only see these having 'free escapes' Caitlyn Ezreal Lucian Tristana and arguably you could put Xayah here too with her ult. But most of them definetly don't have a 'free escape'

I left out kaisa because I have absolutely no idea what her kit does.

LordGeovanniApr 16, 20181 votes

Free Excapes item 3086 item 3113 free movement (unconditional) speed to get out of unfavorable fights Ashe ult and passive Draven E W Jinx E/w and passive. Jhin crit and w Kog Maw One of the heaviest aoe slows in the game Kog Maw Does almost as much damage as braum ult for for a comparable slow much lower cooldown and the slow duration persists longer after exiting the zone on Kog maw's E than it does braums's Ult which is the only comparable skill in the game and Kog maw actually has the potiental to build for use of his E's scaling unlike braum, I easily get away with kog maw same as i do with braum because when you run away you dont E at your enemies you E where you want to go and run along the massive slow zone thus anyone who chases you will have to follow you along it rather than aiming at an enemy letting them side step it and continue chasing. MissFortune E on top of your self or the enemy run and the second they hit you with a spell to Break your Strut Press W to start it again at max speed. Sivir Passive Auto attack Q have w bounce for persisting Speed or press ult and run away at mach 10 with your team. Twitch Please his q is an easy get away cause of the speed up and camouflage. Vayne Q auto run Q e Xayah Use of E and her ult Quinn E and q Varus E and ult Please. Sudden mobility is not the only way to get away from unfavorable situations although It doesnt look as impactful Most of these champions have better excapes than Lucain in a Lane and the only reason Lucain's E works as an excape is because after he uses E He presses W and ults to gain Movement speed. Movement speed is played down alot on adcs but the second a tank or bruiser get any movement speed adcs cant stop crying. if Phage got 40+ movement speed on melee auto attacks and 120 on melee kills Adcs and mages the safe back line carries are the ones who will be crying about it.

yoshi2790Apr 18, 20181 votes

Those are not escapes, escapes are mobility spells....

LordGeovanniApr 20, 20181 votes

They Facilitate the Excape by impeeding would be catchers thus making movement speed better item 3086 item 3113 5% movement speed Movement speed is mobility even if its not sudden it does matter more than sudden movement over long chases and versus people with actual long cooldown cc or actual short range hard to hit cc.

GigglesOApr 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's their items. The ADCs, most of them, have been around a -long- time. They were always annoying, but not this Oppressive. What changed? Their items:

I mean it when I say Items have gone insane.

poor nerfed

warmogs randuins visage

Rip Living longer than 2 seconds.

Teridax68Apr 15, 20181 votes

I largely agree, marksman items are definitely over the top, and are a prime reason why they feel so low on counterplay (they load nearly all of the marksman's damage onto their autoattacks, which do not miss, cost mana, or incur a large cooldown). However, I don't entirely agree that items that the only problem with marksmen, as certain marksmen in particular, like Twitch and Tristana, have aged poorly. A lot of older marksmen have excessively safe kits that were tolerable in an environment with less damage overall, but that are extremely frustrating now when fights tend to end much sooner. At this point, this amount of safety and reliability isn't justifiable, not when every other class has been given more counterplay, so I do think one of the changes that will need to be done to marksmen as a class will be to bring them to modern standards of design.

Modl Ryden lApr 15, 20181 votes

Nah, it's just so shit to be tower doven and have your bot lane taken from you at like 8 mins. It's like the mineral fields in Starcraft (if you could destroy mineral fields). If your team can destroy bot lane turret first and gather all the objectives in that area. You net like an effect 1k effective gold per member involved. Which comes from kills, turret destruction, tower first blood local gold, drakes, and any potential gold that may come from a snowball to mid and possible rift herald. The strategy itself is a creep from bot lane to rift.

Then the gold difference can only go up once the enemy bot lane cannot push further than t2 turrets unless they are willing to risk getting ganked. Which ultimately halts them from equalizing the enemy bot lane turret to allow themselves to open up the map. They become workers without mineral fields to mine. They end up having so much down time because they can't farm and they have no agency or influence because they're already behind in gold and levels.

I'd have to attribute the absurd state of the game to shit turrets. They're nothing more than liabilities waiting to happen in game.