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So Much Rengar Hate...

Tribbles Foxfolk··7 votes·1,175 views

There is SO much Rengar hate on the Boards that seemed to have only cropped up in the last 2 days, during which nothing has happened.

On one hand, I can understand the hatred with the gutting of vision. No good anti-stealth available (Red Trinket doesn't actually let you target them, iirc, just see them) that doesn't get knocked down immediately, lack of Stealth Wards available creates lack of map vision (new warding trinket is a joke), and the changes to the Mastery Tree has given him some MAJOR hybrid burst damage (That scales with AD on a 20s CD, btw) in the form of Thunderlord's Decree.

On the OTHER hand, I don't agree with most of the hatred. Yes, he's not very fun to play against. But since WHEN have assassins created a healthy laning experience that made you say "Wow, that was an intense lane, really back-and-forward in terms of winning lane", doubling down on this if they're junglers (Remember Season 4 Kha'Zix with Elder Lizard, one of the best junglers available that wasn't Lee Sin?)?

Assassins as a classification are squishy playmakers, dishing out tons of damage to priority targets (the ADC, another Assassin, the Lee Sin, etc) and usually dying for it. Note that important phrase: "...And usually dying for it." Rengar usually DIES when he R-jumps in and kills his target in a realistic scenario. If you fed him hard, then he'll just 1v3 your team with Empowered Q and you die a little bit inside as you watch your Zed, Lee Sin, and Caitlyn turn into molten piles of ectoplasm while Rengar walks away laughing with the 2.5k+ gold he just made.

tl;dr: I think the hate towards Rengar isn't undeserved by any means, but misdirected. People should be complaining about the hyper-safe Assassins like Zed, Lee Sin (He can go full tank and still 1-shot your ADC...), and even Katarina to a lesser extent (though she's pretty balanced out by a reliance on her passive, so she can get a pass), and the complete lack of meaningful Mastery choices (You take Thunderlord's on everyone that isn't a tank, Soraka, Nami, and Sona, and Warlord's Bloodlust on Tryndamere and Yasuo).

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a Silver 5 support/fill main that's tried every champion at least once or twice and loves playing off-meta junglers. I'll just sit here and be the ward-whore for the team.

48 Comments

Dreadlocks5 votes

It's just the circle jerks man, nothing new... they don't know what they are talking about. I mean I remember how shit everyone thought skarner was going to be after the rework and I remember how strong he was on the pbe. . But u know, the boards know best so he was buffed before release and we all remember how bullshit that week was...

Tribbles Foxfolk3 votes

{quoted}

It's just the circle jerks man, nothing new... they don't know what they are talking about. I mean I remember how shit everyone thought skarner was going to be after the rework and I remember how strong he was on the pbe. . But u know, the boards know best so he was buffed before release and we all remember how bullshit that week was...

There's no doubt that Boards can POTENTIALLY (keyword) give great feedback and that they usually just want the best for the game. However, the circlejerk recently is horrendous...And frankly I'm disappointed in the behavior of those that are participating in it.

Dreadlocks2 votes

It's nothing new though. And yeah there can be very good threads made about topics. But the thing about circle jerks is they don't want to fix anything or even suggest a meaningful change. They just want to see their thread get upvotes

Sightless663 votes

Assassins as a classification are squishy playmakers, dishing out tons of damage to priority targets (the ADC, another Assassin, the Lee Sin, etc) and usually dying for it

Not all assassins work like that. There are plenty of assassins that get access to slippery mobility that gives them chances to get in and out of a fight, but they also have to play around conditions on their burst that opens up opportunities for people to survive them. They can still be very strong, but they aren't anywhere near as annoying. I would much rather play against a hyper-safe Zed or Lee Sin or anyone else as opposed to Rengar.

Rengar usually DIES when he R-jumps in and kills his target in a realistic scenario.

I mean, seriously, this isn't a point in his favor. When Rengar is even a little strong, his goal is very reliably making sure one other player isn't part of the game. That's boring as fucking hell, and it's worse with him than virtually any other assassin. The sheer reliability and ease with which he can delete someone and prevent them from doing anything about it with either positioning or reactions is not matched by any other assassin, and it isn't better just because he dies afterwards. I would much rather give him some chance to survive in exchange for giving his target and their team a better way to respond to him outside of "don't let him get even a little fed". It works for other assassins, and they're much less annoying than Rengar is.

tl;dr: I think the hate towards Rengar isn't undeserved by any means, but misdirected. People should be complaining about the hyper-safe Assassins like Zed, Lee Sin

Nah, directing it at Rengar is absolutely the right decision. Any assassin has the potential to be aggravating, but the sheer lack of strong options you have against Rengar when he's strong means that he's more aggravating than any other assassin. I'd rather play against a safe assassin than a reliable one any day.

But since WHEN have assassins created a healthy laning experience

Is that a real complaint about him? It's the unanswerable deletions in the midgame and lategame that seem to be getting the hate. I don't think anyone has actually brought up any specific problems with his laning or jungling pattern. Maybe that's just me missing it, but I'm pretty sure that's not really a significant complaint about him.

There is SO much Rengar hate on the Boards that seemed to have only cropped up in the last 2 days, during which nothing has happened.

The complaints about Rengar are most likely a combination of the announcement of the new assassin item along with his increased presence in the metagame recently. There were threads asking for nerfs for him right after the new item was detailed, so I think it's safe to assume that was a factor.

SaltyKracka2 votes

Frankly, there's never been a time when Rengar has been widely liked.

This is mostly in response to him being currently powerful and Rito's idiotic decision to make a new item in order to buff a class that's already doing very well.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Idk I've always liked rengar, even when I didn't main him.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

A "class" being two champions of a category?

Talon and Kha (off the top of my head) are still very badly hurting from the changes to last whisper! As far as Yi being an AD Assassin, I guess technically yeah, but he (like trynd) has always been a slightly different case as an Attack Speed / Autoattack assassin vs the Burst Ratio / Caster AD Assassins (Zed, Talon, Kha the likes).

Zed is the only true AD Burst Ratio Assassin doing well right now, and thats merely because of his ability to proc thunderlords from a distance, along with his ult giving him both his main damage combo AND escape. Rengar is somewhat different because his ratios synergize with crit, so the ADC update works well with him. So while I will not deny that rengar is doing well, he sits apart from the group of assassins that are truly hurting ATM.

SaltyKracka2 votes

Talon has a 53% winrate.

Kha is the only AD assassin not doing well right now.

You are an idiot.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Can you link me these stats?

SaltyKracka1 votes

Sure.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

8 Hours later, not a link to be found ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

SaltyKracka1 votes

Dude, what?

Click my fucking post.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Oh! The word "Sure." was the link lmao.

MB.

EDIT: Ok so at / above platinum and ONLY IN RANKED PLAY. Talon has a 53% winrate. Fun Fact... 89.45 % of the GLOBAL playerbase is ranked Gold or lower.

Those statistics are only representative of 10.55% of the global playerbase.

THESE PROVIDED STATS SHOW:

You will also notice a trend for Talon where low playrate "mains basically" = higher winrate, where a high playrate brings a lower winrate (as a general rule) This is a pattern seen very commonly in underpowered champions. (btw with patch talon is seen in 3.48% of games, this + high winrate suggests mostly mains are playing him)

Troiann2 votes

Assassins in the mid lane are absolutely amazing match ups. Yasuo, zed, talon all create an exhilarating lane experience where you're on the edge of your seat looking at your opponents every move.

And then you have syndra orianna anivia and ahri who just sit at tower and insta cleave the wave in a second while being impossible to dive due to heavy amounts of CC.

Tribbles Foxfolk2 votes

{quoted}

Assassins in the mid lane are absolutely amazing match ups. Yasuo, zed, talon all create an exhilarating lane experience where you're on the edge of your seat looking at your opponents every move.

And then you have syndra orianna anivia and ahri who just sit at tower and insta cleave the wave in a second while being impossible to dive due to heavy amounts of CC.

In a way, yes. If you're playing one of their counters/50-50's, then laning with them can be thrilling (in a jumpscare all-in-at-6 PewDiePie-reaction sort of way). For any other matchup, it's stale, monotonous, and usually determined by who gets the first kill and can snowball faster than the other. (A problem ADCs embody and doesn't seem to be getting solved any time soon)

Spaceman5pff2 votes

Assassins create fun lanes vs other assassins. But vs a mage, it is 0 fun.

Troiann1 votes

Yes. But melees against mages are no fun. If there were no assassins stuff like ahri and anivia would just snowball horribly out of control in the lane (anivia actually does this quite often due to her passive, wall, ult, and Q all allowing her to self peel/survive in a tower dive before the enemy is strong enough to tank the tower). Saying mages dying to zed is anti fun is just as dumb as saying darius getting infinitely kited by ahri is anti fun. Rock, paper, scissors. Rock gets to beat scissors, they get beat by paper. You don't get to have your cake, eat it, and then eat my cake too.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

I don't think the simple fact that mages die to zed is anti-fun, but rather that vs any assassin, the entire focus of the game shifts from "farm and scale" to "don't die to X assassin or let any of your teammates die to X assassin"

Vesarixx1 votes

Ahri needs to have quite a substantial lead to be able to instaclear a wave, and even if she is it will drain her mana pretty quickly.

Troiann1 votes

She clears the wave with one Q and a couple of autoes, maybe a W if there's a cannon. She can't insta clear the wave, but in exchange she has a huge MS boost attached to the Q as well as on demand CC and three dashes. So still boring ass gameplay mid lane. She gets to pick all of her fights, as melee you can't do a damn thing.

MohawkBird2 votes

The thing is that his assassination potential is really the only thing Rengar has. If Riot were to gut that then he would be useless. HIs jungler clears are shit, he can't split push well ever since the nerf to Q, he's has no escapes after his assassination, his team fighting is pretty bad, and lacks hard cc.

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that his assassination potential is really the only thing Rengar has. If Riot were to gut that then he would be useless. HIs jungler clears are shit, he can't split push well ever since the nerf to Q, he's has no escapes after his assassination, his team fighting is pretty bad, and lacks hard cc.

Exactly, and that is why Rengar is considerably healthy for an Assassin. All he does is damage. His passive? Damage. His Q? Damage. His W? Minor Armor + MR buff with small heal attached (oh and magic damage). His E? Snare and damage. His R? Stealth, Ferocity, oh yeah, and DAMAGE. The most utility he has is a 2s snare (which is actually a lot in terms of a squishy assassin).

Nothing offensive (cough Ekko W cough) or outrageously broken. Just tons of damage. Fairly healthy if you ask me.

By the way, his jungle clears are actually not that bad. Go Q > W > E, start Krugs and smite them. Don't get Refillable Potion (still garbage). You should be able to do a full clear if you spend your Ferocity properly and get a Scuttle Crab or two.

MohawkBird2 votes

His jungle clears aren't that bad speed wise but he gets quite low and is extremely susceptible to invades early.

Tribbles Foxfolk2 votes

{quoted}

His jungle clears aren't that bad speed wise but he gets quite low and is extremely susceptible to invades early.

And that's exactly how you stop a Rengar: Invade him while he's at one of his buffs and just kill him since he's not gonna have more than 1/2 of his HP.

Riot has said that "You should have stopped me 20 minutes ago, bruh" isn't a counter. Yeah, it actually kinda is. Heaven forbid you try and stop a snowball champion by crushing their early game with a Lee Sin pick.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

THIS! As an AVID jungler, I have a pretty good idea of who gets how low (generally) in the jungle. One of the absolute best ways to keep a snowball jungler down (especially the likes of a rengar) Is to take one camp for lv 2 and sneak into their jungle: If you find them at their buff, you can kill them or blow a summoner (either way you force them out of the jungle and at the very least know where they go next) or if they aren't there, you can snap up 2 or 3 of their camps if you ward smartly, thus denying them farm and getting knowledge of their location. As long as you use this vision and free knowledge to ward up (yes this is part of jungling, it takes practice but so does playing against anything else) you should be able to hunt down that rengar and jump him when he is at low ferocity and get an early kill or two. An invade kill on a jungler is so much more demoralizing than being down a kill in lane. If you are lucky, you might even have a decent mid who can help you out when your ward on raptors spots rengar at half hp and one ferocity.

Tribbles Foxfolk2 votes

The Rengar hate circlejerk is really strong. My main post has been downvoted quite a bit by hate-trainers.

You know what? Screw it, let's see how you act when Riot actually listens and nerfs Rengar. $100 says that you people cry when he's nerfed or cry when he's not nerfed/is buffed.

Spoiler warning: I'd have already win $100 cause you people will rage at Riot for ANYTHING they do. Zeds abusing a W-Q bug is fixed? "OMG RITO NERFED BALANCED CHAMP COMPANY DOESNT CARE" Veigar loses too much power from getting too many assists, so Riot makes assists count for his Q passive too? "OMG RITO BUFFED OP CHAMP STUPID COMPANY" Riot dumpsters Kassadin because of his nightmarish impossible-to-balance ult? "OMG RITO SO BAD GUTTED A BAD CHAMP" Riot tries to tweak Kassadin to a healthy state while keeping his identity intact? "OMG RITO YOU BROKE KASS AGAIN GG"

The hard truth is that nothing Riot does will make you people happy. NOTHING AT ALL. Not even releasing cosmetics because people will just circlejerk about "OMG X CHAMP DIDNT DESERVE A NEW SKIN, Y CHAMP DID", though I will admit that older champs that lack a ton of skins like Lissandra need them more than Morgana does. If anything, Morgana needs a VU cause her model and particles are really showing their age.

Jbels2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE5OFYzf,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-12-28T01:06:32.021+0000)

The Rengar hate circlejerk is really strong. My main post has been downvoted quite a bit by hate-trainers.

You know what? Screw it, let's see how you act when Riot actually listens and nerfs Rengar. $100 says that you people cry when he's nerfed or cry when he's not nerfed/is buffed.

Spoiler warning: I'd have already win $100 cause you people will rage at Riot for ANYTHING they do. Zeds abusing a W-Q bug is fixed? "OMG RITO NERFED BALANCED CHAMP COMPANY DOESNT CARE" Veigar loses too much power from getting too many assists, so Riot makes assists count for his Q passive too? "OMG RITO BUFFED OP CHAMP STUPID COMPANY" Riot dumpsters Kassadin because of his nightmarish impossible-to-balance ult? "OMG RITO SO BAD GUTTED A BAD CHAMP" Riot tries to tweak Kassadin to a healthy state while keeping his identity intact? "OMG RITO YOU BROKE KASS AGAIN GG"

The hard truth is that nothing Riot does will make you people happy. NOTHING AT ALL. Not even releasing cosmetics because people will just circlejerk about "OMG X CHAMP DIDNT DESERVE A NEW SKIN, Y CHAMP DID", though I will admit that older champs that lack a ton of skins like Lissandra need them more than Morgana does. If anything, Morgana needs a VU cause her model and particles are really showing their age.

You're posting for the wrong reasons to begin with if you actually care this deeply that a thread you posted about one of your favorite champions got downvoted to hell

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

{quoted}

You're posting for the wrong reasons to begin with if you actually care this deeply that a thread you posted about one of your favorite champions got downvoted to hell

Rengar is NOT one of my favorite champions. Not by a mile. In fact, he's probably outside of my top 35. (~40 in a top 50) His playstyle is fun compared to some single-minded champions (Jarvan E-Q and sometimes R, much interaction very fun KappaRoss), but relatively boring as an ally. I enjoy playing AGAINST one for the top-level awareness I have to exhibit so I don't get 100-0'd at top lane because I forgot to ward/look at the minimap.

I posted this thread to address the massive amount of outrage and give my 2 cents on why I think Rengar ISN'T deserving of his sudden amount of outrage. What was I met with? Backlash, downvotes, and echo chambers with no support to show why their outrage is supposedly justified.

As Jim "Fucking" Sterling "Son" put it: "You should believe us because it's totes like for reals." That's the GP&B Boards' mindset, and it's exactly why Riot doesn't take us seriously anymore. Even Malicious Metal (the most passionate Boards member without question) has received his fair share of backlash for raising concerns about the Boards, Riot, and everyone involved, despite calling nobody out (except Riot when they do something really stupid with Mordekaiser, and even then it's usually polite and made quite intelligently) and laying out well-made threads about Mordekaiser, Gameplay, and Balance.

You can argue with me all you want (and I know you will because you probably lack anything better to do, like myself...), but my opinion stands steadfast and I'll defend my ability to voice opinions in the face of "criticism" (usually just FotM players and "mains" whining at me for liking/disliking a champion/item/mechanic/ANYTHING ON PLANET EARTH).

Jbels1 votes

It might have something to do with disliking being jumped on from stealth, which is very hard to react to as you can't see from what direction he's coming. A while ago, Scarizard was going to trade his stealth for a speed up for better stickyness, which would have freed up his power budget, and given the live balance team more leeway to give him some good buffs to his kit.

Instead, the Rengar mains didn't see that. So they rioted (heh) and demanded his stealth be left intact. And here we are today

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

{quoted}

It might have something to do with disliking being jumped on from stealth, which is very hard to react to as you can't see from what direction he's coming. A while ago, Scarizard was going to trade his stealth for a speed up for better stickyness, which would have freed up his power budget, and given the live balance team more leeway to give him some good buffs to his kit.

Instead, the Rengar mains didn't see that. So they rioted (heh) and demanded his stealth be left intact. And here we are today

Well...I mean it's kind of part of his identity as the PrideSTALKER (Stalker: A typically stealthy individual that follows another individual). I'm no Rengar main, but I'd get kinda wound up if they removed the stealth and left the generic speed-up :< It would change him from "Rengar, The Pridestalker" to "Rengar, the generic Assassin".

Talon still has his stealth and it does potentially its damage TWICE to 5 people (10 instances of a nuke btw). People don't think that's OP, so kind of a double standard to accuse Rengar stealth of being OP/unhealthy, honestly.

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE5OFYzf,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-12-28T00:08:37.900+0000)

Well...I mean it's kind of part of his identity as the PrideSTALKER (Stalker: A typically stealthy individual that follows another individual). I'm no Rengar main, but I'd get kinda wound up if they removed the stealth and left the generic speed-up :< It would change him from "Rengar, The Pridestalker" to "Rengar, the generic Assassin".

Talon still has his stealth and it does potentially its damage TWICE to 5 people (10 instances of a nuke btw). People don't think that's OP, so kind of a double standard to accuse Rengar stealth of being OP/unhealthy, honestly.

His identity? Having the ability to become invisible for no specifically defined reason is his identity? It's not being a big game hunter who relishes the challenge of facing worthy prey? It's not being in direct competition with another hunter who not only fought him to a draw, but took his eye? THAT'S not his identity, the fucking stealth is? Sure...ok

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

{quoted}

His identity? Having the ability to become invisible for no specifically defined reason is his identity? It's not being a big game hunter who relishes the challenge of facing worthy prey? It's not being in direct competition with another hunter who not only fought him to a draw, but took his eye? THAT'S not his identity, the fucking stealth is? Sure...ok

...Did I SAY it was his ENTIRE identity? Where did I? Quote where I did before you spout insults and nonsense at me.

Sorry (not sorry) that I think he's actually healthy as an Assassin when Zed and Lee Sin are running completely unchecked (because of course they are).

By the way, Kha'Zix is known as the Voidreaver, yet he has stealth too. Is that not part of his identity? Oh wait, yes it is because it's always been a part of him. Rengar's stealth has always been a part of him as well, yet he actually has a title fitting for it: The PrideSTALKER.

You are showing a SERIOUS double-standard and should consider it.

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE5OFYzf,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-28T00:50:36.232+0000)

...Did I SAY it was his ENTIRE identity? Where did I? Quote where I did before you spout insults and nonsense at me.

Sorry (not sorry) that I think he's actually healthy as an Assassin when Zed and Lee Sin are running completely unchecked (because of course they are).

By the way, Kha'Zix is known as the Voidreaver, yet he has stealth too. Is that not part of his identity? Oh wait, yes it is because it's always been a part of him. Rengar's stealth has always been a part of him as well, yet he actually has a title fitting for it: The PrideSTALKER.

You are showing a SERIOUS double-standard and should consider it.

Alright, Mister double-standard. Quote me where I insulted you. Go ahead. And healthy doesn't mean balanced correctly. Rengar could have been a lot more without the stealth. As for Stalker, being stealthy doesn't mean being invisible in plain sight. It means just what you said. A stealthy individual who follows you. He has a passive that reflects this perfectly. You have to be afraid of the parts of the map where his presence isn't immediately obvious, the brush. And in exchange for losing the stealth, he could have maybe gained bonuses for attacking you from the brush off of his passive. Everyone thought it was the end of the world when Rengar was going to lose his stealth. They were focused on the present, instead of the possible future for his kit, and in my honest opinion, that held him back from becoming something different.

As for Kha'zix, at least him being able to disappear before your eyes makes thematic sense (probably killed and ate something a while back that had that kind of camouflage ability and gained the ability to do so himself). What does Rengar do? Cover himself in bushes and dirt right on the spot?

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

{quoted}

Alright, Mister double-standard. Quote me where I insulted you. Go ahead. And healthy doesn't mean balanced correctly. Rengar could have been a lot more without the stealth. As for Stalker, being stealthy doesn't mean being invisible in plain sight. It means just what you said. A stealthy individual who follows you. He has a passive that reflects this perfectly. You have to be afraid of the parts of the map where his presence isn't immediately obvious, the brush. And in exchange for losing the stealth, he could have maybe gained bonuses for attacking you from the brush off of his passive. Everyone thought it was the end of the world when Rengar was going to lose his stealth. They were focused on the present, instead of the possible future for his kit, and in my honest opinion, that held him back from becoming something different.

As for Kha'zix, atleast him being able to disappear before your eyes makes thematic sense (probably killed and ate something a while back that had that kind of camouflage ability and gained the ability to do so himself). What does Rengar do? Cover himself in bushes and dirt right on the spot?

Snapping at me for posing a legitimate point is basically an insult. It's an insult to your own intelligence more than anything.

Also, I think his passive is already considerably powerful compared to SOME OTHERS (cough non-Blue Power Chord cough) because it's a free Kha'Zix E on a 0s CD with a limitation to brush (which is practically everywhere). Buffing it any further will probably overload it and lead to his kit being gutted for it, and thus trashing him.

Now, let's speculate. Say Rengar didn't have his stealth. What do you think his ultimate would have become, then? Would it be like Legion Commander's Duel from Dota 2 because of his desire for a worthy opponent? (which would be awesome, actually) Would it be something generic and probably rubbish? Maybe it would be a passive (gains 0.25% Max HP True Damage on AAs for every Trophy, capped at 5%/20 Trophies. Just an example) and really boring?

Back to Kha'Zix, we have NO IDEA how he got his stealth ability (and like what you said, he probably just killed and ate something), but nobody's really complained about it, lore-wise or otherwise. It has no origin outside of speculation and isn't explained, but is accepted as part of his identity. So..."Why isn't Rengar's acceptable as part of HIM, as part of RENGAR?" is the question I will pose you.

I personally find him tolerable and acceptable, easily countered by escapes, Merc Treads, tanks, CC, Vision Wards, and invades. (Played a game as Rengar about an hour ago and kept invading THEIR Rengar. Killed him twice in invasions and stole his Red Buff at least 4 times in a 30+ minute game. That was my first game playing Rengar post-preseason changes) He suffers hardcore if you get a lead on him early and reaps many benefits FROM getting a lead on YOU.

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE5OFYzf,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-28T01:19:56.048+0000)

Snapping at me for posing a legitimate point is basically an insult. It's an insult to your own intelligence more than anything.

Also, I think his passive is already considerably powerful compared to SOME OTHERS (cough non-Blue Power Chord cough) because it's a free Kha'Zix E on a 0s CD with a limitation to brush (which is practically everywhere). Buffing it any further will probably overload it and lead to his kit being gutted for it, and thus trashing him.

Now, let's speculate. Say Rengar didn't have his stealth. What do you think his ultimate would have become, then? Would it be like Legion Commander's Duel from Dota 2 because of his desire for a worthy opponent? (which would be awesome, actually) Would it be something generic and probably rubbish? Maybe it would be a passive (gains 0.25% Max HP True Damage on AAs for every Trophy, capped at 5%/20 Trophies. Just an example) and really boring?

Back to Kha'Zix, we have NO IDEA how he got his stealth ability (and like what you said, he probably just killed and ate something), but nobody's really complained about it, lore-wise or otherwise. It has no origin outside of speculation and isn't explained, but is accepted as part of his identity. So..."Why isn't Rengar's acceptable as part of HIM, as part of RENGAR?" is the question I will pose you.

I personally find him tolerable and acceptable, easily countered by escapes, Merc Treads, tanks, CC, Vision Wards, and invades. (Played a game as Rengar about an hour ago and kept invading THEIR Rengar. Killed him twice in invasions and stole his Red Buff at least 4 times in a 30+ minute game. That was my first game playing Rengar post-preseason changes) He suffers hardcore if you get a lead on him early and reaps many benefits FROM getting a lead on YOU.

So giving my opinion on Rengar's identity is "Lashing out". Dude, you need some thicker skin if you're insulted THAT easily. As for buffing Rengar's passive, if he's losing the stealth, it would no longer overload his passive to buff it to try and enhance that "Hunter of the jungle" aspect. His stealth makes ZERO thematic sense. You can sort of put a picture together for Kha'zix based on his lore and theme, but Rango's makes literally zero sense. No matter how hard a lion in homemade battle gear tries, they can NOT make themselves invisible to others while running at them in plain view without .

The jungle becomes an important part of the map as time goes on, and giving Rengar tools that help him excell at fighting in or around the jungle in exchange for taking his stealth is not a sin. Also, I never called Rengar OP. I've called him a missed opportunity

Tribbles Foxfolk1 votes

{quoted}

So giving my opinion on Rengar's identity is "Lashing out". Dude, you need some thicker skin if you're insulted THAT easily. As for buffing Rengar's passive, if he's losing the stealth, it would no longer overload his passive to buff it to try and enhance that "Hunter of the jungle" aspect. His stealth makes ZERO thematic sense. You can sort of put a picture together for Kha'zix based on his lore and theme, but Rango's makes literally zero sense. No matter how hard a lion in homemade battle gear tries, they can NOT make themselves invisible to others while running at them in plain view without .

The jungle becomes an important part of the map as time goes on, and giving Rengar tools that help him excell at fighting in or around the jungle in exchange for taking his stealth is not a sin. Also, I never called Rengar OP. I've called him a missed opportunity

OK, so, I'll re-ask the exact question I asked you: What do you WANT to see from Rengar's ultimate if they strip off the stealth, then? What do YOU think (YOU, not what the "elite tryhards MLG 420 Rengo mayns" think) should be his passive? Bonus damage to Jungle Monsters? Gains trophies for killing Epic Monsters? Stronger Smite against Jungle Monsters? A pseudo-Kha'Zix passive? What, exactly?

If you can't answer that, then I'm afraid you're a part of the bigger problem with the Boards: Nobody knows what they want (except a few intelligent people like Malicious Metal, those people know EXACTLY what they desire from a champion) and just wants X thing to happen cause Y reason, even if X thing will become a strictly-worse version of Z thing.

I've defended both Riot and the community in the past, the present, and will in the future. Riot carries every right to not take suggestions, but the community also carries the right to be heard, spoken to, and to discuss. However, the community's recent decline in their ability to provide legitimate arguments for/against/neutral to something is disheartening, because of the knock-on effect more than anything.

A few nasty posts here, troll posts there, and flat-out STUPID posts in between, Riot begins to question who to take seriously. With the Memes & Games, joke posts and babbling hate-train threads dominating the "What's Hot" overview, Riot actually has to take quite a bit of time SEARCHING FOR AN ACTUAL POST. Something they can use. Feedback, a good question, somebody's thoughts on something all get buried by the pointless circlejerk threads that just spam "OMG RITO OP PLZ NERF" and get upvoted (because people on this Boards also have an attention span of ~.25 seconds, AKA: about 20 letters of a sentence) and something that can be contested while it ISN'T a strawman argument will be downvoted because it takes some time to read and think of a response.

By the way..."Grow thicker skin" Really? You seriously just said that. No, stop the whole thread, you just actually said that. I get told to kill myself on an hourly basis. I'm told that I was a mistake that should have been aborted every game. I get personally attacked for ANYTHING (age, virginity, sexuality, ANYTHING) in this game. And I roll my eyes at all of it. But you know what I CAN'T just roll my eyes at? Stupidity. I find stupidity OFFENSIVE, which a big portion of the Boards is just nothing but. It's also the same reason I don't discuss religion, sports, and politics in public and/or polite company: There's too much stupid and I find each of those topics naturally dumb. (Religion is basically fanatics getting pissy with each other for not believing in the same stuff, sports is people hitting each other/something with something else, and politics is basically Donald Trump.)

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yE5OFYzf,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-28T01:47:42.138+0000)

OK, so, I'll re-ask the exact question I asked you: What do you WANT to see from Rengar's ultimate if they strip off the stealth, then? What do YOU think (YOU, not what the "elite tryhards MLG 420 Rengo mayns" think) should be his passive? Bonus damage to Jungle Monsters? Gains trophies for killing Epic Monsters? Stronger Smite against Jungle Monsters? A pseudo-Kha'Zix passive? What, exactly?

I would have liked to see them eventually work his kit up to being a champion with large strengths in the jungle. Maybe if he thows his Bola from bush, it becomes single target if they don't have vision of him, but the slow/snare time is reduced. Maybe his ult passively gives him bonus movement speed through the river or jungle (Putting the stalker in pridestalker). Maybe for his ult, you could make it like Illaoi's ult, where she suddenly becomes a lot more mobile while doing a lot more damage because the cooldown of her mobility spell gets very reduced, so perhaps Rengar would be able to leap at people every two seconds while gaining huge movement speed, and maybe every time he jumps he gets a stack of ferocity to help him get out his ferocity abilities faster. Atleast that would make more sense than randomly becoming invisible for no reason

I've defended both Riot and the community in the past, the present, and will in the future. Riot carries every right to not take suggestions, but the community also carries the right to be heard, spoken to, and to discuss. However, the community's recent decline in their ability to provide legitimate arguments for/against/neutral to something is disheartening, because of the knock-on effect more than anything.

As have I, every time a Tahm Kench nerf post has surfaced. I'm sick of the Tahm Kench is OP circlejerk when in reality, he's pretty damn average

By the way..."Grow thicker skin" Really? You seriously just said that. No, stop the whole thread, you just actually said that. I get told to kill myself on an hourly basis. I'm told that I was a mistake that should have been aborted every game. I get personally attacked for ANYTHING (age, virginity, sexuality, ANYTHING) in this game. And I roll my eyes at all of it. But you know what I CAN'T just roll my eyes at? Stupidity. I find stupidity OFFENSIVE, which a big portion of the Boards is just nothing but. It's also the same reason I don't discuss religion, sports, and politics in public and/or polite company: There's too much stupid and I find each of those topics naturally dumb. (Religion is basically fanatics getting pissy with each other for not believing in the same stuff, sports is people hitting each other/something with something else, and politics is basically Donald Trump.)

Like I said, you're gonna have to grow some thicker skin if mere stupidity drives you over the edge. If you find stupidity offensive, you might as well go live where nobody else does, because there will ALWAYS be stupidity. I've come to terms with that, and I just address it with logic every time I see it, in the hopes that maybe I can reach them. As an aside, sports, religion, and politics don't really have anything to do with this situation

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Don't stop now guys I just finished making Popcorn [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Honestly, a Fed Talon ulting in the fog with ghostblade and popping up on me without any warning on my part is alot more frustrating to me than a Rengar oneshotting me when I got at least moderate / short warning.

Troiann1 votes

If you take away Rengar's stealth, you would have to give him current quinn ult (double movement speed, lasts as long as you can run, low as cooldown) that doesn't get interupted by damage or CC to make up for it. He relies so much on that stealth. His kit requires high mobility to do anything remotely useful, and honestly if you want to away his current ult you would have to give him so much more it would make his laning broken as hell.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

If you take away Rengar's stealth, you would have to give him current quinn ult (double movement speed, lasts as long as you can run, low as cooldown) that doesn't get interupted by damage or CC to make up for it. He relies so much on that stealth. His kit requires high mobility to do anything remotely useful, and honestly if you want to away his current ult you would have to give him so much more it would make his laning broken as hell.

That's not true at all, there are plenty of ways t compensate somebody for losing something big on their kit. And Rengar doesn't really rely on that Stealth as much as you think. Maybe for running away, but half the time, you're just using it to get close to somebody, which oyu could do anyway with alot of movement speed. There are ways to ensure Rengar's ferocious stalker hunter identity is intact even without the stealth being on his kit

Spaceman5pff1 votes

If they took away the stealth, I could be okay with it if they kept the enemy-revealing and leap-granting aspects.

Heck, even the movespeed could go away as long as the power was shifted equally into his kit elsewhere (maybe having his W shred % resistances on enemies hit? Or giving back his ability to Q turrets?)

Troiann1 votes

Without that stealth you instantly get CCed or your enemy gets to escape. Mages would just build hourglass and the enemy team would just pick tahm or thresh every time Rengar gets picked. His stealth is core to his identity, if you want to get rid of it you have to either buff him so he's broken without it (laning phase is going to be so broken) or you would have to rework his entire kit.

For fucks sakes the best argument against rengar is that he's anti fun. I mean galio coming bot and flash ulting and me not being able to do a thing isn't fun too, but there's counterplay. One thing that's kind of dumb is the pink trinket ward removal, but once they bring that in Rengar should be fine.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

Without that stealth you instantly get CCed or your enemy gets to escape. Mages would just build hourglass and the enemy team would just pick tahm or thresh every time Rengar gets picked. His stealth is core to his identity, if you want to get rid of it you have to either buff him so he's broken without it (laning phase is going to be so broken) or you would have to rework his entire kit.

For fucks sakes the best argument against rengar is that he's anti fun. I mean galio coming bot and flash ulting and me not being able to do a thing isn't fun too, but there's counterplay. One thing that's kind of dumb is the pink trinket ward removal, but once they bring that in Rengar should be fine.

Ok so Leblanc and Ekko are garbage because they can be "instantly CCed" because they don't have stealths? There are ways to build in compensation for not having a stealth, and not all of them involve breaking Rengar's kit. You keep assuming the compensation for not having the stealth would make him broken

Troiann1 votes

Leblanc and Ekko have multiple forms of escape. They can't be CCed through their blinks too.

You want to give Rengar a blink?

Spaceman5pff1 votes

To be fair, his entire thematic as a character would have to be rewritten if he no longer had his stealth.. I only ever STARTED playing Rengar because of how cool his thematic is!

TBH, just blame nightblue3 for all the rengars you see. If he was as good at Fiddlesticks or Leblanc, You would all be complaining about how "rito gutted the vision system and now it is impossible to shut down Fiddle / LB" But no, one of the most viewed LoL players on Twitch plays alot of Rengar, and as such, you see lots of Rengar in your games.

The same holds true for whatever 2Lift and Gosu play at ADC (I would say QT as well but he doesn't favor champs consistently to the point of influencing the low-tier metagame)

Nasuuna1 votes

watching sneakys stream last night, rengar was banned every game.

Weathered1 votes

It's because all of the Kha people know that their champ is dirt right now and want the other equivilent to feel the pain they do. Rengar has been healthy for so long, most of the time ABOVE healthy and Kha is constantly either way to dam OP or way to dam terrible. Most of the time the second.

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