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Vayne has the highest attack speed growth of any ADC

Cute Vegan Boy··34 votes·3,662 views

Vayne's attack speed growth is 4% per level, matching Caitlyn's. I understand that it's because she doesn't have an attack speed buff in her kit like Caitlyn, but she does have an auto-attack reset on a 2 second cooldown.

Vayne is an abomination of a champion because she is really never weak in any stage of the game, and yet is a powerhouse late-game who can literally 1v5 if she's fed enough.

Has Riot not mentioned before that they don't like champions who never have a vulnerable period? I'm pretty sure they have. So why does Vayne get to be powerful at all stages of the game?

Something as simple as removing the base numbers on w's proc would make her easier to lane against.

As it stands her W, Silver Bolts, deals: 20/30/40/50/60 + 4/5/6/7/8% of the enemy's max health.

Let's say she's auto'd an enemy Sona with 1,000 hp 3 times. Along with the basic attack's damage, her w would also deal an extra 140 true damage.

Also remember that this is a passive, and therefore does not have a cooldown, meaning Vayne can keep procing her W over and over and over. Having this ability and her Q, Tumble (which also gives her bonus damage on her next attack for some reason), all she really needs to build is attack speed, if anything. This ability has no counter, nothing you can build against it, absolutely nothing to negate or diminish the damage.

She doesn't need to build much attack damage either because her medium-cooldown ultimate gives her 30/50/70 bonus attack damage, while her Tumble gives her bonus damage on her next attack scaling from max attack damage.

Vayne NERF THE NIGHT HUNTERVayne

70 Comments

killd0zer12 votes

The ADc who only has attacks gets fast attacks

oh. my. god. it's bronze in here

Fadedpf15 votes

ADCS Job is to attack fast. Vayne just does that with %hp true damage which is retarded.

Durzaka2 votes

Varus, Caitlyn, Kalista, Jinx, MF, Lucian, Graves, etc. etc.

All of them do more than just AA the entire game.

TheI3igDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

The ADc who only has attacks gets fast attacks

oh. my. god. it's bronze in here

'the adc who only has attacks' What does this even mean? Are you saying she only deals damage with autos? Condemn does damage.

RookCauldron6 votes

{quoted}

'the adc who only has attacks' What does this even mean? Are you saying she only deals damage with autos? Condemn does damage.

Pitiful damage, it's not like you would actually be relying on Condemn to do damage.

AbsoluteSadman1 votes

Nah only for a good disengage or a 2 second stun.

Demonwolf1 votes

2 second stun is nothing to laugh at considering that is almost 2 applications of her passive.

KONO RUBICK DA5 votes

90 / 160 / 230 / 300 / 370 (+1.0 per bonus attack damage)

and apply one stack of SB, i don't think it's tremendous, but it is not "pitful"

LoLKiru12 votes

"This ability has no counter, nothing you can build against it, absolutely nothing to negate or diminish the damage"

item 3110 will help significantly against this, while it won't make Silver Bolts do less damage (the ability is made to be impossible to reduce, would sort of kill the point), it will make it take longer for her to proc it.

summoner 3 also helps quite a bit as well with the 30% AS slow

OT: The issue here is that Vayne is weak early game, in theory; in practice though she isn't all that weak, due to a combination of protecting her being REALLY easy due to all her self-peel, and her hitting a major powerspike with only bork, a super defensive support like Tahm can also really help her out (as he does with Kog'Maw)

Fadedpf3 votes

item 3110 wont do anything against Vayne. Also a Vayne with peel + self peel is why I hate fighting Vayne. If it isn't condemn stopping you its the 30 other cc's from the team.

Sightless666 votes

Frozen Heart wont do anything against Vayne.

Yes it will. The majority of her damage is physical, and because she does almost none of her damage with abilities, she'll suffer a higher %dps loss from attack speed slows than other carries will. She's absolutely vulnerable to builds including this item.

Fadedpf4 votes

item 3153 item 3046 item 3006 + runes & masteries. 15% is nothing. Combined with crits, bork damage, W passive and straight up peel a good vayne is mission impossible to stop.

Mathbalnase10 votes

An AS boost is applied to a champ's base AS. An AS slow is applied to a champ's total AS.

A 15% AS slow is much, much, much stronger than a numerically similar AS boost.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

An AS boost is applied to a champ's base AS. An AS slow is applied to a champ's total AS.

A 15% AS slow is much, much, much stronger than a numerically similar AS boost.

While that's true, oftentimes I notice when I build Frozen Heart, that this item doesn't really do much to prevent Vayne from killing me quickly. Her true damage can completely bypass this item since it only gives armor, and once she has enough attack speed, even if an attack speed slow is stronger than a numerically similar AS boost, she will still have enough attack speed to kill me in seconds, unless I stack a lot of armor but don't stack any HP.

Oftentimes I find item 3075 to be more effective. Even though it can't reduce Vayne's attack speed, nor it can reflect the damage done by her Silver Bolts, it is still effective against the normal damage done by her auto-attacks, and since she will have a lot of attack speed, she will receive a lot more damage from this item, in addition to it countering the small amount of lifesteal that BotRK has.

But lets be honest, there is nothing that you can do to defend yourself against Vayne's damage, except attack speed slows, but even with the current 2 AS slow that we have are not that effective against Vayne.

We need more items and abilities that can slow attack speed. For example, Gragas' barrel used to slow attack speed before his rework. Imagine if he had that back.

Mathbalnase2 votes

{quoted}

While that's true, oftentimes I notice when I build Frozen Heart, that this item doesn't really do much to prevent Vayne from killing me quickly. Her true damage can completely bypass this item since it only gives armor

Most, by far, of Vayne's damage is physical, so the armor will help more than you give it credit for.

and once she has enough attack speed, even if an attack speed slow is stronger than a numerically similar AS boost, she will still have enough attack speed to kill me in seconds, unless I stack a lot of armor but don't stack any HP.

The more AS she builds, the stronger an AS slow is compared to an equally-costed chunk of armor.

Oftentimes I find item 3075 to be more effective. Even though it can't reduce Vayne's attack speed, nor it can reflect the damage done by her Silver Bolts, it is still effective against the normal damage done by her auto-attacks, and since she will have a lot of attack speed, she will receive a lot more damage from this item, in addition to it countering the small amount of lifesteal that BotRK has.

item 3075 having no base damage, Vayne's AS has precisely 0 impact on the damage it returns for a given amount of physical damage received. In fact, Silver Bolts means that building AS lessens the damage returned relative to the total damage Vayne deals.

But lets be honest, there is nothing that you can do to defend yourself against Vayne's damage, except attack speed slows

I can also recommend roots, blinds, stuns, knocks, and even silences as all being effective methods to reduce Vayne's damage to varying degrees.

We need more items and abilities that can slow attack speed. For example, Gragas' barrel used to slow attack speed before his rework. Imagine if he had that back.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Gragas is not currently in the running for 'trash tier', and an effect of that sort (of a meaningful magnitude) is quite powerful against vulnerable opponents...so... What would you suggest he give up in exchange?

YumaS2Astral3 votes

{quoted}

I can also recommend roots, blinds, stuns, knocks, and even silences as all being effective methods to reduce Vayne's damage to varying degrees.

Roots are good, but unfortunately most of them are skillshots. Vayne can easily dodge them.

Only Quinn and Teemo have blind.

Again, most stuns are skillshots.

Knocks... Again, most of them are skillshots.

As for silences... They are completely useless against Vayne. She is entirely auto-attack reliant. Silence will at best prevent her from casting her Tumble, which will not always be a problem, since she can kite you if you are using a melee champion.

Mathbalnase1 votes

Preventing Vayne from using Tumble is precisely how a Silence reduces her damage. Have you seen the damage boost that ability gives her?

To hit Vayne with a skillshot, try dopping/shooting it immediately after she Tumbles, preferably towards you / an ally. It's not a surefire method, but in my experience it will usually increase your chances.

She's slippery, but it IS possible to catch her, and once you do, she won't last long.

360D3GR3SS3 votes

Malphite + item 3110 = Kreygasm

Fadedpf1 votes

I know malphite takes a poop on all the AS. Kappa

Thats a Bingo8 votes

Oh no! The only ADC who has only auto attacks to deal her insane damage gets the best attack speed scaling in the game? Oh man, you're totally right. She should not be the best in anything at all.

Altricad1 votes

Draven is the same you know.... ( unless you're gonna use your ult for poke)

Draven Always1 votes

Draven is the best in the game. He is secretly the best ADC.

Durzaka1 votes

Draven also has a massive AD steroid instead to compensate. As well as a near permanent attack speed and MS boost.

What's your point?

Abyssphere6 votes

I don't understand the complaint. Her identity is being a hyper carry and SOMEONE needs to be the best in each area. Being the best at something doesn't mean you get nerfed - why is this not a "nerf Cait" thread?

Vayne could definitely do with a nerf but this is a ridiculous area to take issue with. Just hit her early trades.

Lajinn51 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand the complaint. Her identity is being a hyper carry and SOMEONE needs to be the best in each area. Being the best at something doesn't mean you get nerfed - why is this not a "nerf Cait" thread?

Vayne could definitely do with a nerf but this is a ridiculous area to take issue with. Just hit her early trades.

I don't have any issue with the concept of hyper carries, my issue with hyper carries in league though is that rarely do they trade off anything for what they get late game. Late game hypercarries should be extremely item dependent/have trash base stats that scale very well, it should not be easy for a hypercarry to reach their late game. Vayne becomes capable of dumpstering most adc's as soon as she hits 6 and gets a Blade, that is NOT a difficult to reach point in the slightest.

Abyssphere3 votes

{quoted}

I don't have any issue with the concept of hyper carries, my issue with hyper carries in league though is that rarely do they trade off anything for what they get late game. Late game hypercarries should be extremely item dependent/have trash base stats that scale very well, it should not be easy for a hypercarry to reach their late game. Vayne becomes capable of dumpstering most adc's as soon as she hits 6 and gets a Blade, that is NOT a difficult to reach point in the slightest.

I agree that hypercarries very rarely actually have poor early games right now. Vayne doesn't, Jinx doesn't, Cass doesn't and Azir doesn't. That is extremely bizarre and should be dealt with so they have more similar (and appropriate) power curves to people like Twitch and Kog. Or at least Caitlyn who has a crazy early but a very difficult mid before picking up a huge amount late.

The thing is that if your problem with Vayne is that she turns on too early/is too strong at all stages of the game then reducing her attack speed growth doesn't actually help the problem. Like, that hurts her most at level 18, meaning you barely impact her early (when you are supposed to be dealing with her but currently get frustrated that you can't) but hit her late (the point at which she is designed to be good and her players want her to be good) hard. That is completely backwards. We should be making her early game worse with stuff like Tumble ratio nerfs at early levels or even reduced AD on her ult at early levels - you know, nerfs that will give her the distinct power curve that she's supposed to have.

As I said, Vayne getting nerfed is good but this is one of those suggestions where you just blindly throw a dart at a champ's kit. It wouldn't make her feel better to play against because she would still be a late game powerhouse unless you properly gutted her AS growth, at which point you've completely destroyed her concept and are a horrible game designer. She just needs her counterplay in her weak early made more useful because the #1 pain point of fighting Vayne is "I'm supposed to be bullying her early but she's doing perfectly fine - why?". If her early game was actually punishable she'd be both at a more acceptable power level and much less frustrating to face.

Shifune5 votes

Vayne has no weak periods in the game? She literally gets shit on by almost every adc in the game during the early stages. But you're probably one of those people who plays passive against Vayne and doesn't punish her early game weakness.

EDIT: The counter to %hp damage is to not too much build health. item 3110 item 3075

YumaS2Astral3 votes

{quoted}

Vayne has no weak periods in the game? She literally gets shit on by almost every adc in the game during the early stages. But you're probably one of those people who plays passive against Vayne and doesn't punish her early game weakness.

EDIT: The counter to %hp damage is to not build health. item 3110 item 3075

Don't build health, then you die to the enemy AD casters (they stack a lot of armor penetration) and enemy APs because you don't have the HP necessary to survive their burst.

Celeste Benal3 votes

Except she does True Damage which is supposed to be countered by health, since it ignores armor. If she did just bonus damage, that would be fine. If he did a flat amount or even scaling true damage with levels in the skill, that would work. But scaling based on both level and target's maximum health is way OP.

For example, I can't think of anyone that has ever said that Corki's True damage on hit is OP. No one complains about him. You don't see people trying him in the jungle with Devourer.

BlkStar1004 votes

Ummm , I might be wrong but doesnt she have an attack range smaller compared to other ADC's ?

NemeBro5 votes

{quoted}

Ummm , I might be wrong but doesnt she have an attack range smaller compared to other ADC's ?

Her auto attack range is actually pretty average at 550, but she has no way to damage people beyond that range, compared to Lucian for example who has abilities with a range of like 1,000 units.

Vayne has only autos (and condemn I guess, but it has the same range) to deal damage, so yeah her effective range if quite short. The shortest of any ADC that I can recall at the moment.

O Fallen Scholar4 votes

Here we go guys. Another target has been found. Jump to the bandwagon.

Draven Always1 votes

dude, your name Kreygasm. gachiGASM gachiLEATHER forsenDDK.

Woook3r3 votes

Her early game. Really weak.

CreationFlaw8 votes

{quoted}

Her early game. Really weak.

I don't find it as weak as say Kog'maw or twitch, actually, it's pretty average. Considering she can peel for her self so much it's insane, her early game should be weaker. I don't like getting killed in ten autos when I've gone full tank

brad3 votes

{quoted}

Let's say she's auto'd an enemy Sona with 1,000 hp 3 times. Along with the basic attack's damage, her w would also deal an extra 140 true damage.

dont fucking bend the truth to fit your argument

in what situation ever would a vayne have rank 5 w and a sona have 1k hp with no mention of any armor??

Crett3 votes

[{quoted}](name=hi im bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yAnNuU2b,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-07-20T02:47:09.021+0000)

dont fucking bend the truth to fit your argument

in what situation ever would a vayne have rank 5 w and a sona have 1k hp with no mention of any armor??

actually armor wouldn't have any effect. in this case vayne's W is being played down a bit, since sona's having so little hp.

if sona had 2.2k hp, it would be 236 damage.

Jeanne fan club3 votes

He isn't bending the situation, he is simply showing that the ratio for the true damage is insane. That is 140 damage that you can't do ANYTHING about other than build health, which only increases the damage it does. what would armor do about the 140 true damage anyway? Not to mention you can't run away from her without a movement buff or dash because of her passive and her q.

For Carthage3 votes

The reason Cait's AS is so high is because her passive is proc'd off of every 8th hit. If they lowered that to even 5, dear god people would rage.

Meanwhile, Vayne does something similar much more often for much more damage every single time. Hell, even when she received that AS buff, she was still stupid strong and doing work - then they said, "You know what Vayne needs? To be even stronger."

And then they nerfed Twitch and everybody said, "I don't... get your logic..."

Kamai3 votes

It's easy to kneejerk on the title, but she either really needs to be an auto-attack assassin, spike at level 6, and need to get ahead to stay relevant at end game, or she needs to spike much less hard at 6 (and on getting BorK). This is admittedly throwing darts at a wall, but what if: W: Silver Bolts Now requires 5/5/4/4/3 stacks to apply the silver bolts effect. Silver Bolts base damage increased to 30/37.5/45/52.5/60. E: Condemn No longer applies a stack of silver bolts. If used on a unit without silver bolts, silver bolts is removed from any unit you have placed it on.

It wouldn't touch her late game very much, but even with sticking on an enemy, her silver bolts is weaker at ranks 1-4 (and may still be a bit weaker at rank 5 indirectly through the change to Condemn).

YossarianSensei2 votes

Can't believe a champ that relies almost exclusively on AA's would be able to hit 'em hard, and fast!

DJ Hatsune Miku2 votes

In terms of raw damage silver bolts is probably the worst steroid in the game. Seriously. Also Vayne is certainly not strong before she gets her first two items. Take any champ with some early game, graves, cait, Lucian, all tool on her easily.

Don't be salty, Vayne is pretty balanced. She busts tanks and is a great duelist. Doesn't munch towers, the true damage cap makes her objective damage lower than real steroid adcs, and she's pretty squish.

Also frozen heart and randuins counter her W.

Ormylar2 votes

I feel like it's starting to become like season 3 again. BotRK is strong, lots of other adcs and/or items to counter AA-reliant champions get nerfed while Vayne is not touched. Vayne herself didn't change much, a lot of other things did. The PD buff when Riot shifted 5% crit from IE helped her out too as most people will build PD after BotRK.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

or you could just git gud

Jari1 votes

You know, I hate this argument over the W. Ya. 8% of health as true damage. Woo. It still takes three auto's without changing target to do it. So to help here, let's pretend her auto's do 0 damage to a target okay? After three auto's she does 8%, after 9 she does 24%, that's honestly not a huge amount overall. The reason why it's good is that it is a tank shredder, which is something special about her. It's not like she just builds AS and magically wins with only that anyways. I still see IE on her, that ain't giving no attack speed. I still see LW on her despite the true damage. Her W. Is not. The problem.

And as for no weakness at any point in the game, try attacking her in laning phase. She punishes a passive player because she needs farm. So, make her get punished for trying to get farm. There's also items like item 3110 item 3143 item 3075 which make her auto's slower/hurt her. And since her E is the only non-auto attack based thing she has, that's a pretty big deal for her. You have tools. Use them. I simply listed three items that counter her, but for some reason people look at % true damage and scream op.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

You know, I hate this argument over the W. Ya. 8% of health as true damage. Woo. It still takes three auto's without changing target to do it. So to help here, let's pretend her auto's do 0 damage to a target okay? After three auto's she does 8%, after 9 she does 24%, that's honestly not a huge amount overall. The reason why it's good is that it is a tank shredder, which is something special about her. It's not like she just builds AS and magically wins with only that anyways. I still see IE on her, that ain't giving no attack speed. I still see LW on her despite the true damage. Her W. Is not. The problem.

And as for no weakness at any point in the game, try attacking her in laning phase. She punishes a passive player because she needs farm. So, make her get punished for trying to get farm. There's also items like item 3110 item 3143 item 3075 which make her auto's slower/hurt her. And since her E is the only non-auto attack based thing she has, that's a pretty big deal for her. You have tools. Use them. I simply listed three items that counter her, but for some reason people look at % true damage and scream op.

The problem with trying to punish her is that she wins trades against any ADC assuming that both only use auto-attacks against each other

So you need something that can outrange her

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with trying to punish her is that she wins trades against any ADC assuming that both only use auto-attacks against each other

So you need something that can outrange her

The whole point of her weak early is that she can only trade with autos. Why would any enemy she is facing not use their abilities?

Celeste Benal2 votes

Like I posted above. True Damage in and of itself is not OP. But when she has a passive that scales with levels and with opponent's max HP, then it becomes OP.

Have you seen a Sated Devourer Vayne yet?

Jari1 votes

Not yet personally. Haven't played a huge amount recently. I did give the thing a try on Udyr though, although I did pretty horrible there personally. Based on the complaints of the item itself though, we need to stop saying that we need to nerf Vayne over it. I hear it made at least 7 champs broken, so it'd just be easier to change around the item instead of the champs.

I do have an idea to fix this everyone has smite situation. There could be a requirement on how many large monsters you kill before you get the certain upgrades. Like let's say 3 large jungle monsters to enhance that smite, and something higher up for the big upgrade. At the very least there, it'd delay it for people not jungling unless they want to fuck their jungler over.

Either way it's the item really, not the champ. If you scream for Vayne nerfs, she'll be nerfed with the item. You saw what happened with Warwick right?

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