Does Katarina REALLY need aoe grievous wounds?

Fadedpf·Jun 17, 2015·63 votes·3,757 views

Katarina is a very straight forward champion. I get that. She goes in, explodes people and resets from it. When was the last time you thought a Katarina penta was special? But the thing I don't understand is the reduced healing tied to her ult. Talk to anyone with half a brain and they will say "LOL just cc her". If it were really that easy to stop her she wouldn't be played in every elo including the LCS (sometimes). She does all this while taking a crap all over your ability to heal.

I just want an explanation on why its there. If she really does need it, I would prefer it being removed from her ult and just giving her a single target grievous wounds applied to her shunpo

81 Comments

KazaashiJun 17, 201531 votes

It's there because Kat has to kill someone to do anything. If she can't do that to someone fast, she can't combo, and she dies. She only exists to tear people to shreads and the GW is there to solidify that. It means you actually have to play smart against her, instead of just tossing a quick heal to stop the kill.

FadedpfJun 17, 201512 votes

1 Kill can get her going, she can do that ignite. She scales like crazy in all phases of the game. Her damage is high enough I don't see the reason for the aoe GW.

KazaashiJun 17, 201510 votes

{quoted}

1 Kill can get her going, she can do that ignite. She scales like crazy in all phases of the game. Her damage is high enough I don't see the reason for the aoe GW.

All her abilities have a 25% - 45% AP scaling, which is pretty bad compared to other AP champs. Her ult only scales so hard because it hit multiple times; however, if you move out of the short range it does 0 dmg. She needs the GW on her ult to be able to get a kill on a low heath target. It is up to you too not get caught out of position.

A champion based on resets should not be dependent on a 210 second CD to kill someone.

FadedpfJun 17, 20156 votes

Then attach it to her shunpo

KazaashiJun 17, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Then attach it to her shunpo

That could be a thing, but she is supposed to punish people for bad positioning. If a team clumps up against a Katarina, they deserve to get blown up as a team.

Rinky DinkyJun 17, 201513 votes

wtf?

So, if we don't clump she picks one person off and they die.

But if we do clump in order to protect a carry, WE ALL DIE?

Sounds legit

Edit: Before tiny brains attack me, please note that this is simply a pick at the argument above. Take your "kat is balanced.png" white knighting away from meh

KazaashiJun 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=y6OIXzol,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-17T22:46:53.231+0000)

wtf?

So, if we don't clump she picks one person off and they die.

But if we do clump in order to protect a carry, WE ALL DIE?

Sounds legit

Edit: Before tiny brains attack me, please note that this is simply a pick at the argument above. Take your "kat is balanced.png" white knighting away from meh

The only reason to attach it to her shunpo would to make it single target instead of AoE and the only reason to do that would be to tune down her ability to blow up a whole team with 1 ult. If she is fed enough that she jumps on someone and deletes them, your team is at fault, not that Kat is op.

AnidanJun 18, 20157 votes

Actually, until fairly late in the game squishies die to her extremely rapidly whether she's fed or not. She still has access to farm for items like Luden's and Rabaddon's, not just kills.

Just pointing that out, nothing else. Squishies are, y'know, squishy :P

bonfire10Jun 18, 20151 votes

She still has access to farm

Except the point is if this is true, the enemy midlaner isn't doing their job/doesn't know how to lane against kat.

Katarina should not be coming out of lane ahead in either kills or cs. Her strength is having good roam potential, which itself should be meaningless if handled correctly by botlane, it's just that it rarely is.

If a team plays to katarina's weaknesses she'll never hit her powerspikes in time to snowball and be of any use, either through kills or farm.

CrossetteJun 18, 20152 votes

I love this comment. Fuck Kat's full team nuke...

Knight SoIaire Jun 17, 20152 votes

but thats like the only way to stop her

you clump on her to cc her and destroy her before cc wears off

AnidanJun 18, 20155 votes

You apply the CC then clump. Very important order of operations, and I've seen it messed up many, many times.

chipndip1Jun 18, 20152 votes

So we're saying one person has the right to destroy nearly an entire team single-handed in one ult because your team was in a bad position for a second or so? If she punished you hard, fine, but she literally has a "free triple" button for the slightest of errors. The only champ that terrorizes whole teams so damn quickly and simply is Katarina. Even Fizz and Riven need time and timing unless they're just ungodly fed.

AnidanJun 18, 20153 votes

If by "one ult" you mean you're letting her get off multiple seconds before you hard CC and then kill her, then sure! And if you have no hard cc, you ask? Welcome to the land of the Counterpicked.

CrossetteJun 18, 20151 votes

Blind pick. That's all I need to say here.

AnidanJun 18, 20151 votes

Yeah, but that's the nature of the beast. And bringing up Blind Pick doesn't necessarily forgive poor team compositions either because Katarina is going to rip through teams with low amounts of hard CC/no silences because she's designed to do that.

bonfire10Jun 19, 20151 votes

The game isn't designed or balanced around blind pick. That's like making the regulation NBA basketball net height 6 feet because that's how high it is when elementary school kids play.

OrbvJun 18, 20151 votes

Idk, have you ever been clumped against:

Fiddlesticks Fiora ?

They are equally as devastating, but without the resets.

chipndip1Jun 18, 20151 votes

Still not as fast though.

bonfire10Jun 19, 20151 votes

Which they make up for by having CC, untargetability, the ability to move while maintaining ult, the ability to use zhonyas while maintaining ult, and more damage over a longer period of time rather than in a quick burst.

chipndip1Jun 19, 20151 votes

Combining the pros of two different champs sure makes them sound op, huh?

Fiddles is squishier than Kat and doesn't get that 15% reduced dmg Kat does. Fiora does less and less damage as she continues to hit the same target, or she has to spread out more damage on more people, resulting in less damage on a single target. Kat can do a crap ton to everyone at once while still throwing projectiles at a target.

Logistics aside, Kat's ult is far more deadly.

bonfire10Jun 19, 20151 votes

Combining the pros of two different champs sure makes them sound op, huh?

it wasn't supposed to imply the both had all those attributes, I was just listing the combined tradeoffs and assumed the reader would sort out which one applied to which champion.

Fiddles is squishier than Kat and doesn't get that 15% reduced dmg Kat does.

No, but like I said, that point is moot considering he can zhonyas without sacrificing damage, which is much more significant than a 1.5 second 15% damage reduction.

Fiora does less and less damage as she continues to hit the same target, or she has to spread out more damage on more people, resulting in less damage on a single target.

Yes but now we're just going in circles stating the same tradeoffs. She doesn't have the immediate damage that kat has, but that's supplemented by being untargetable and having guaranteed full usage of ult. And she might not kill a single target as quickly, but that's because she doesn't need to kill quickly. Kat relies on a kill in order to get a reset and continue being useful in the fight. Fiora has sustained physical damage output that's going to be there regardless of kills/assists, she isn't dependent on killing in burst.

RamuhdoJun 17, 20153 votes

I don't think she punishes people for bad positioning so much. If you're at low health and being protected by the group, Katarina can click on you and you die, then she punishes the rest of your team because you died. Pretty much adding insult to injury: it's bad enough one of your team mates dies, but Katarina increases the punishment you receive and gets to pull off QWE on a second target!

I think Katarina's more designed to punish people for playing ADC/APC/squishy support, where your counter-play is mostly to crush her in lane and then babysit bot so she doesn't farm off of bot when lane is impossible.

BiffoloJun 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

1 Kill can get her going, she can do that ignite. She scales like crazy in all phases of the game. Her damage is high enough I don't see the reason for the aoe GW.

It's also good at stopping supports from dropping a clutch heal against her. Since ALL she can do is damage, she needs to do her best to make sure it isnt mitigated.

CarryJun 17, 201514 votes

Does any champion REALLY need any aspect of their kit?

No. You can remove any aspect of any champion's kit and then balance them around the remainder of their kit. You need a better reason to remove something from a champion's kit than "do they REALLY need it?"

qetzelJun 18, 20155 votes

I disagree with this. The best example is Fizz. Remove or significantly change his E and you don't have Fizz anymore. Most champions have something like this that absolutely has to stay. Those that don't tend to be horribly generic.

straight4freeJun 17, 20157 votes

It was removed from her old W-Q combo and they felt like it would be unfair to completely remove it from her kit. ( Fizz item 3070 ). They also didn't want to make it up constantly so they decided only her ult needed it.

Does she need it now? Not sure, her lane opponents might take heal if she were to lose it though.

ProvengreilJun 17, 20152 votes

don't most katarinas use ignite as part of their kill combo anyway?

FadedpfJun 17, 20155 votes

All assassins do

ArkenStormJun 18, 20151 votes

and don't most midlaners vs kat take heal anyway(meaning anyone with range)? or is that just me?

ProvengreilJun 18, 20151 votes

against an assassin it's TP or exhaust for me. I won't outburst them, ignite or not, and I wont even try. Ignite counters heal, so no point taking that. An exhausted assassin is often a flash or kill though.

KanzlerJun 17, 20154 votes

The forum QQ will soon degenerate to "Does X champion really need to scale off items? X already has 4 functional abilities and a passive and I think that is OP because I dont know their weaknesses."

EvilRabbittJun 17, 20153 votes

I keep saying this. I don't understand why everyone prefers nerfs to buffs. Eventually this becomes something similar to Stick Arena, you just right click to win.

KazaashiJun 17, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I keep saying this. I don't understand why everyone prefers nerfs to buffs. Eventually this becomes something similar to Stick Arena, you just right click to win.

It's easier to call something OP and to nerf it, than to learn how to change up your playstyle. The latter requires admitting that you are not the best LoL player ever and most people are not equipped to handle this.

RamuhdoJun 17, 20153 votes

Considering she's designed to punish people for having low health/defences, I think she "needs" the grievous wounds to prevent Heal or a healing spell being counter-play to her. I don't think Katarina is designed to have counter-play outside of the standard "don't be low HP", "CC her" and "shut her down early" advice you get.

Shrek LuigiJun 17, 20153 votes

Katarina is a lot of things but 'straightforward' probably isn't one of them.

And uuuuh many midlane champs can apply grevious wounds with item 3165 , and can apply it from a higher range in teamfights. She probably needs it more than other champs because it's the only notable part of her kit outside of having lots of mobility. O_o

Ch0c0lateJesusJun 17, 20153 votes

I found it interesting that they removed grievous wounds from Fizz W because it was "thematically confused". Yet Kata still has it on her ult because fuck you.

I dunno, I figured getting shanked with a giant serrated trident would wreck you a lot more than a few little knives, but whatever.

LuggJun 17, 20153 votes

I just want to know why she needs 15% damage reduction.

Remlap1223Jun 18, 20151 votes

Because she's melee, squishy, and CC instantly stops her ult? ( MissFortune item 3070 )

LuggJun 18, 20151 votes

She is supposed to be squishy, that's her "supposed" weakness. But they go and give her a Maokai ult on one of her regular abilities.

Remlap1223Jun 18, 20151 votes

She's also melee. Yeah, her Q and R have some range to it, but it's extremely specific and not extremely reliable unless your positioning is awful. To be frank, in a sea of flashy bouncy champions Leblanc Ekko Kat is the one assassin that isn't all about that. Positioning is key, and more position focused champions instead of overly mobile cheeseballs is what Riot should be moving towards, not Ekko the gecko.

If the damage reduction gets a nerf, it should be for friendly units only. The damage reduction on enemies is perfectly ok.

BeatzBoyFTWJun 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

She's also melee.

Urgot :...w0t

lDontLiftIcarryJun 18, 20152 votes

You use clarity.

ComannderShepardJun 18, 20155 votes

Hey, don't be a dick. Like ffs you went out of your way to be a dick.

TotalJerkJun 18, 20153 votes

Check the name. He's been shitposting all over the place for weeks, now. A good chunk of the asshole comments come from him.

Hugo ButtsJun 18, 20152 votes

The "report" in the bottom-right corner becomes "reported". No idea how someone can enjoy being so insufferable, so I'm just going to assume it stems from their own poor luck in game, despite them choosing the 'right' spells. Although, clarity in any game mode nowadays would make me cringe, unless if you had the mana hungriest ARAM team in existence. Even then, a well-timed exhaust or heal generally does better.