Good to know armor is getting nerfed.

Fadedpf·Aug 2, 2015·110 votes·6,913 views

Not really. This sucks ass. Why don't people just realize last whisper is one of the most cost efficient items in the game. Tanks are going to be in a horrible spot after this.

136 Comments

VDc0zCqe0wAug 2, 201515 votes

armor should cost more and scale better

i mean randuin costs way less than IE and it's infinitely better @ 1 item, but 5 armor items vs 5 AD items it's not even close

they should rework the scaling better, right now being ADC early game sucks vs a tank, and being a tank sucks lategame vs an adc

gaby1bestAug 2, 201515 votes

right now being ADC early game sucks vs a tank, and being a tank sucks lategame vs an adc

And that's exactly how it's supposed to be. ADCs are late game carries, they are the tank melters.

VDc0zCqe0wAug 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

And that's exactly how it's supposed to be. ADCs are late game carries, they are the tank melters.

don't you find it a lil stupid that i, as ADC, am forced to pick IE and LW @ full build no matter what?

this is how ridiculous armor is atm, 2 items locked for ADCs, and considering you usually get boots, you can only choose 3 items as an ADC

i don't know if Kalista goes IE but everyone else does @ 6 items

The LexerAug 2, 201532 votes

You are forced to buy certain items on ADC because the tank is forced to buy certain items to be a tank

Lost RAug 3, 20152 votes

Tanks have a choice between choosing to build magic resist, armor and straight up health.

Try making an ADC build that DOESN'T use crits. Wholesale. The two main things ADCs are expected to build are attack speed and damage, and there are a lot of options to do this, but people also expect crits, and your options for crits are extremely limited. I despise using crits because it's a game of chance, and it's been petitioned to be removed because games shouldn't be decided on whether or not the ADC managed to proc a crit; it's the same line of reasoning that led to Dodge being removed a long time ago.

There are a ton of other non-crit items that make a ton of sense for an ADC to build - Maw of Malmortius, Scimitar, Black Cleaver, Wit's End, Zephyr, Iceborne, Manamune, and Essence Reaver to name a few. Try incorporating ANY of these items on anyone who isn't Ezreal or Jayce. People will scream you out of the room.

RatbertAug 3, 20151 votes

It's not really a choice as much as "build these or become useless". By not building crit you are merely gimping yourself. It's like arguing how terrible itemization is because you need to build a variety of stats in a balanced way to be effective. Bruiser items simply don't work on ads because if pushes a good deal of gold into defensive or other secondary stats an adc simply doesn't want.

Lost RAug 3, 20151 votes

And if you're unlucky enough, like me, that crits don't proc unless you go 100%, and even then it's a coin toss? I shouldn't have an entire role or class of champion basically off limits simply because of probability. Likewise, someone (read: DRAVEN) shouldn't be allowed to snowball early because he was lucky enough to proc heavy crits frequently very early on, no matter how small that chance supposedly was.

There are merits to building Maw/Scimitar on ADCs, like if the enemy team is mostly composed of mages or one particular one is being a bastard. Crowd control is the ADC's ultimate bane. If Veigar gets you with his stun, normally you're going wait half a minute to get back into the fight, but with a scimitar, you at least have a chance to strike back at him, and Maw dulls the hit and gives you a brief shield to soak up more damage. Hydra is a brawler weapon; Maw and Scimitar are anti-mage weapons, and ADCs bitch ENDLESSLY about how overpowered mages are, even if they just got done saying how trash tier Anivia is.

RatbertAug 4, 20151 votes

Crit is simply there to add dps to adcs without giving them reliability to help them scale later. Crits are essentially percentile bonuses to theoretical dps. Crit is a double edged sword where you pour money into it for a chance to hit it big.

There are merits, but the cookie-cutter meta build has more accepted merits. If cc was actually a problem for adcs, cleanse would be popular or they would build mercs/get someone to get crucible.

Lost RAug 4, 20151 votes

That's the thing, though. Crowd control is THE universal bane you use against ADCs. Do you expect to outdamage a fed Vayne or Draven? Well, most of the community in this assassin meta would say yes, but crowd control is the one thing that works universally without issue. It's one of several reasons why Braum is so terrifying.

RatbertAug 4, 20151 votes

Crowd control > everyone who has no tenacity. I feel like armor hampens adcs more than cc. You'd expect to out burst adcs, as they specialize in sustained damage.

Again, if cc was such a problem, cleanse + both merc items + crucible would be meta and people would actually take cleanse vs morg instead of heal.

Dextix LTAug 3, 20155 votes

Tanks have a choice? No they dont. They have to build against the enemy. IF enemy is ad, they build armor, if enemy is ap, they build mag res. Also. Tanks have to build against both types of damage while you have to build only 1 type of damage.

PoskeAug 2, 20153 votes

Its easier to farm when you deal dmg

Spicy RiceAug 3, 20152 votes

Its easier to farm, if you can farm

BiffoloAug 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v3E5hinp,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-02T20:18:59.736+0000)

armor should cost more and scale better

i mean randuin costs way less than IE and it's infinitely better @ 1 item, but 5 armor items vs 5 AD items it's not even close

they should rework the scaling better, right now being ADC early game sucks vs a tank, and being a tank sucks lategame vs an adc

How is that last part bad? They have windows of power that you need to play around.

JuicymanAug 2, 20156 votes

Is this because Vayne and Jinx aren't being played/aren't shredding tanks fast enough? One of them is getting the victorious skin, probably Jinx since she got such a pussy foot nerf.

The One Eye KingAug 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Is this because and aren't being played/aren't shredding tanks fast enough? One of them is getting the victorious skin, probably Jinx since she got such a pussy foot nerf.

HEY...................................... leave my Jinx alone ;-;

LuggAug 2, 20156 votes

Ashe Caitlyn Draven Fiora Gangplank Hecarim JarvanIV Jax Jayce Jinx Kalista MasterYi MissFortune Nocturne Olaf Pantheon Quinn Riven Shyvana Sivir Talon Tristana Trundle Tryndamere Vayne MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Zed will all need nerfing if armor gets nerfed.

FadedpfAug 3, 20155 votes

Rengar Khazix ?

FlemmanAug 3, 20155 votes

or just nerf item 3153 and item 3035 a little, no need to touch so many champ

Aww KatAug 2, 20155 votes

No matter how much Armour you build, you cant prevent from being 2 hit by master yi

redniwediSAug 2, 20154 votes

Armor isn't getting nerfed. Individual armor items are getting a small nerf, but in return new armor items are being added.

FadedpfAug 2, 20155 votes

The post says (in general Armor items are getting slight nerfs, MR items slight buffs). That sounds like everything to me if not most of the big ticket armor items that help you survive early to mid game like Thornmail or FH will probably get nerfed even though they are fine.

SasogwaAug 2, 20154 votes

I would also like if defensive items were less cost-efficient, costed quite more but actually provided stronger stats.

Like, there are godlike-tier offensive items ( item 3031 item 3089 ) but not quite godlike defensive items (best example I can think of would be like item 3143 which costs 2850, so 1k less than IE)

DrCyanideAug 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I would also like if defensive items were less cost-efficient, costed quite more but actually provided stronger stats.

Like, there are godlike-tier offensive items ( ) but not quite godlike defensive items (best example I can think of would be like which costs 2850, so 1k less than IE)

What do you think Cinderhulk is/was?

SinlaireAug 2, 20152 votes

a smite only based item. hence its non-inclusion.

RogueWillAug 3, 20152 votes

By doing that will be a huge buff to brusiers since they normally generate more gold than a true tank and will be the one most likely to buy them adding a lot of survivility to them.

Btw, item 3143 is the less cost-efficient item sitting at 95% while item 3031 sits at 102% and item 3089 sits at 100%. The real tank item that is a mosnter cost wise is item 3110 at 140% but unless you are an AP based tank half of the stats are wasted so its use is normally outweigthed by Omen

GamerThinkAug 4, 20151 votes

item 3110 gives no AP :O

RogueWillAug 4, 20151 votes

true that gives no ap but it gives back Mana and CDR reductions that is mostly utilized by casters. Unless you have some continuous for of damage or a spam-able ability you don't benefit from either of those stats as much.

GamerThinkAug 4, 20151 votes

Many casters are AD or plain tanks (that still benefit from CDR for CC & non-scaling abilities like Alistar Udyr Maokai ), and there are AP champs with no mana ( Vladimir DrMundo Rumble ). There is no relation with being AP.

CindikleAug 2, 20153 votes

You're forgetting we're also getting new items. Armor in general could be getting nerfed in place of more armor itemization. Maybe.

FadedpfAug 2, 20156 votes

Those could be fighter items. I just see no reason to even consider nerfing armor when life steal + last whisper exists. Auto attacks are such a strong method of damage that is why armor is compensated in being cheap and effective until offensive itemization beats it.

CindikleAug 2, 20151 votes

Could be.

AD itemization could be getting worked on after as well.

Nerfing armor allows for ADC nerfs.

FadedpfAug 2, 20151 votes

this all takes a lot of work, testing and time to do though

CindikleAug 2, 20152 votes

Most of the changes we see are done with the testing they care about. PBE is mostly there to catch anything major more than anything else. And even then they tend to ignore/miss things.

Cloud PotatoAug 3, 20153 votes

It's hard to say how much things will change without seeing the changes themselves. It's pretty well known that physical damage is higher than magical damage, so the armor to MR shift makes no sense whatsoever. It's obvious there's some context we don't have.

FadedpfAug 3, 20151 votes

Yeah but I honestly don't know why Armor nerfs came to mind

Cloud PotatoAug 3, 20151 votes

If I had to guess, I'd say that the current Armor items have quite high values for the most part. Most MR options are in the 40-60 ballpark, whereas Armor goes from 45 to 100. To be fair though, the high Armor items are purely Armor based, whereas the MR items are the opposite where the high ones also have HP. That's something they should really look at fixing, since BV and SV are so ridiculously good it makes every other MR option terrible by comparison (although Randuin's does the same for Armor, hope that it gets kicked to the ground personally).

Champion SkinAug 4, 20151 votes

Also something which is kind of weird is that there is no mana regen armor items And there are no flat mana items which give MR

I think that was the case or maybe there are some items I am forgetting or something

Cloud PotatoAug 4, 20151 votes

I'm pretty sure you're right about that. We got item 3024 and item 3028 . It might be an intended difference to split things up like that. AD has basic attacks as well as lifesteal, so they can sustain themselves better HP wise and can get away with running out of mana more easily. AP tends to be more mana dependent so they need mana regen more.

I hope that it's not intended to be like that, though. It limits the variation that AD and AP champions can have when itemization forces them into certain playstyles.

Champion SkinAug 4, 20152 votes

Ehh... well the thing is you don't build armor/mr if you are an AP/AD champion you build it you are against an AD/AP champion

Like if you are against an AP champion and you want Mana you are somewhat forced into mana regen if you are against and AD champion and you want mana you are somewhat forced into flat mana

Well that is if you are a champion that builds defensively or you really need something to keep you alive but also need mana

Champion SkinAug 4, 20151 votes

It would be nice with some MR item(s) that got stronger the more you got hit or something... so that Tanks would be better able to withstand Magic damage DPS champions like Cassiopeia without creating huge MR items which would pretty much invalidate burst mages

So if you get hit a few times (like from a burst mage) the item wouldn't really do much However if you got hit lots of times (like from sustained damage Mages like Cassiopeia) then you would get more and more MR (Though of course the lower and lower on HP you go the less valuable MR is... but well it would still somewhat help at least)

Cloud PotatoAug 4, 20152 votes

item 3211 sort of does that. It also doubles as a way of beating poke champions. However being tied to the big ticket HP/MR items really goes against that theory though.

Champion SkinAug 4, 20151 votes

Ehh.. not really If you take one hit... it basically gives you three item 1006 for 10 seconds You think 3 is going to help a tank survive against Cassiopeia?

Though of course it is a great item in lane against DoT/poke champions like Teemo (well how good it is also depend on your base regen of course... if you have bad base hp regen... the +150% base hp regen won't really do much)

Cloud PotatoAug 5, 20151 votes

The heal amount is pretty crap, but it is more effective the longer the fight lasts, so it does work better against sustained damage than burst. The regen won't be getting bumped up anytime soon, though. BV and SV are already the best MR items.

Champion SkinAug 5, 20151 votes

Regen is better against sustained damage yes... However that doesn't mean that it is particularly good... like building a warmogs likely won't help you anywhere near as much as a randuins will against the sustained damage from an ADC I don't want Spectre's cowl or BV or SV to be buffed/changed... I want a NEW item

And there are no good tools for tanks to be able to last against mages like Cassiopeia as MR items can't be as strong as armor items as that would destroy burst mages However an item which gave more MR the more abilities/magic damage you got hit by would help against DPS mages like Cassiopeia without hurting burst mages very much

I would like an item which helped tanks against sustained damage mages ( item 3102 works best against burst in that the bubble absorb 1 ability and item 3065 works best with champions who have healing or regeneration)

Cloud PotatoAug 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v3E5hinp,comment-id=001700010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-05T13:22:18.354+0000)

I would like an item which helped tanks against sustained damage mages ( works best against burst in that the bubble absorb 1 ability and works best with champions who have healing or regeneration)

Yeah, I think it's ironic that the MR items with HP Regen are the strongest against burst ( item 3190 too to a lesser extent). At the moment the amount of champions with high sustained magical damage is pretty low, but items that actually work against them should be made sooner or later.