Stop pretending Ekko "doesn't have burst" and give his ult a mana cost.

Fadedpf·Jun 8, 2015·205 votes·72,615 views

There is no reason for an ASSASSIN to have this much safety. I can deal with his mobility, cc and damage. But unless Ekko falls asleep there is no punishing him after long fights. I would have expected 100 and upwards to 150 mana cost on an ult like this but nope it costs nothing. Because fuck it all. Currently Ekko builds 0 mana items and just spams Q and W all day and if things go bad just R. Maybe if his ult wasn't an aoe tactical nuke it could cost 0 mana but I am not seeing the downsides to his ult at all. Which is the counterplay when you are an Assassin. SOMETHING has a downside in which your enemy can punish you hard with. "Crap I can't use my escape because I spammed all day."

351 Comments

RiotAD YuumiJun 9, 2015129 votes

So first of all, giving his ult a mana cost is not likely to solve any of the frustration problems it might have. In the vast majority of fights it's going to be used the same way, under the same contexts. If the spell needs a downside (not saying it does) giving it a mana cost isn't going to solve that.

That said, from a design standpoint I do agree that there is something to the idea of "he's been spamming spells and is out of mana, now is my chance to strike." His ult not having a cost directly avoids the minor gameplay idea of "characters are weak when they're OOM." My bad on that one. We'll be fixing it for 5.12 by upping the cost to 100 (from 0). There were localization things that prevented it getting in for 5.11.

As a side note, adding higher mana costs across Ekko's kit (we're also upping W cost to 50 from 30 in 5.11) helps mitigate burst in an indirect manner. Higher costs means he has a harder time farming and may want to invest in more mana/regen itemization. More gold spent on mana + less gold overall = lower AP totals at X point in the game.

KeevalroyJun 9, 201560 votes

A designer actually taking the blame and apologizing for how their champion turned out in the eyes of the community, and then sympathizing with how we feel. It's beautiful.

Higher costs means he has a harder time farming and may want to invest in more mana/regen itemization.

Is that a bad thing? I thought assassins weren't supposed to have safe, reliable farming. Isn't that why a select many got butchered or had their champion class reassigned?

Why not tone back his scaling a bit and make him into a bruiser? Another reason Riot gave for gutting assassins was that they shouldn't have a lot of utility and Ekko...has WAY TOO MUCH utility for doing that much damage...

You should either hit his scaling and make him into a bruiser, or if you want to keep true to the assassin image you had for him, he needs his utility run over with a truck.

Raid Boss MordeJun 9, 201581 votes

Then you realize that Ekko actually has LESS damage than other AP Assassins, and makes up for it with utility. SEE DIANA Diana :

~~More Base Damage,~~ Higher Ratios
Instant Shield
Faster Burst
Naturally Tankier because of this shield

Then you see LeBlanc Leblanc :

Higher Damage by about ~~800~~ 500
More safety
More mobility

Ekko makes up for it by having MORE utility! Also, his skills are all highly telegraphed, unlike "insta-nuke across the lane LeBlanc".

Passive: Takes 3 stacks to activate... if you get 1 or 2 stacks, be smart and back off until it's gone. This has helped me every time I've played against him.

Q: If you get hit by the first part, simply walk to the side... and VOILA! You were only hit by one part. You don't need a dash to get out of slow... look at my username! I can walk out of the Q as Mordekaiser.

W: 3 second delay... THREE SECONDS! Don't make the excuse of "you can only see it 0.5 seconds before it hits". That doesnt matter! If he was able to STILL guess where you were going to be in 3 seconds, then he outplayed you. Also, what NO ONE else notices is that when he activates his W, you can see the hologram come out, and hear him say some quote, I think it's "watch out". Something like that... so once again, another easy way to get out of the way.

R: Everyone complains about that "insane" damage, but no one realizes that it's extremely easy to avoid. Stay away from the hologram = don't take damage. If you're chasing an Ekko and you're low, expect to get destroyed if you're right next his hologram. Avoid it... that's another "tip" I've been using that has let me easily go up against Ekko. Also, his ult's damage makes up for most of his damage as a champ, and he still has less damage than a lot of other assassins. Lowering the damage on this skill wouldn't solve anything.

Learn how a champion works... adapt. Learn how the champion differs from other champs. Ekko has slower burst, damage, and reliability than most other similar champions.

killd0zerJun 9, 20159 votes

1000 words to say an opinion without any facts.

More Base Damage, Higher Ratios Instant Shield Faster Burst Naturally Tankier because of this shield

Seriously that's just sad to defend your main, you didn't even try blogger.com

Raid Boss MordeJun 9, 201531 votes

My main? Ekko? SInce when did I main Ekko... I've only been able to play him a few times so far, he's always auto locked. My main is obviously Mordekaiser, look at my name.

This isn't even an OPINION. It IS fact. Diana DOES have higher ratios for damage in TOTAL. Go check it out, it isn't made up.

Diana's shield IS instant. Press W... what happens? You get a shield right away. Ekko presses W, he has to aim it at a certain location, wait 3 seconds, and has to be in that location when it hits.

Diana can burst targets down much faster than Ekko can. Ekko must wait for 3 stacks, he has to wait for his Q to come back for more damage, he has to wait til someone is low for his W passive, and for his ult to hit, the enemy must be in his last spot 4 seconds again.

If you have a shield that lasts much longer, doubles it's own strength, and can be cast whenever you want, then yes, she is naturally tankier.

I'm not sure how I used opinion when bringing up facts about Diana and Ekko.

SorayielJun 9, 20157 votes

[deleted]

Neo CyrusJun 9, 20159 votes

Or you could have just checked a Wiki to see he's lying straight out of his ass instead of just upvoting him.

pastagayJun 9, 20157 votes

Or you could check it again and see that the only thing with a higher scaling than Diana has is his ult.

Neo CyrusJun 9, 20156 votes

Or you could check once in your life to know that's false. I love what sheep people are just blindly agreeing instead of finding out for themselves. Protip: 0.8 is more than 0.7 and that's not an ult.

dotexeyJun 9, 20155 votes

Ekko's scales: 70% from passive 80% from his Q (20% out and 60% back) 20% from his E 130% from his R Total: 300%.

Diana's scales: 80% from passive 70% from Q 60% from W 120% from R (using it twice) Total: 330%.

Diana does get more damage from AP then Ekko. Her scales are higher.

DragoonRuinJun 9, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Ekko's scales: 70% from passive 80% from his Q (20% out and 60% back) 20% from his E 130% from his R Total: 300%.

Diana's scales: 80% from passive 70% from Q 60% from W 120% from R (using it twice) Total: 330%.

Diana does get more damage from AP then Ekko. Her scales are higher.

You all keep blindly throwing out numbers, and I don't think anyone has refuted the actual numbers. But your leave out the rest of the kit, Passive : Diana has to melee a champion 3 times to get her passive to proc, and her passive cleaves 2 targets other than her primary Ekko can stack his passive up with spell cast, hence 2 Q's, then a Dash and his first AA on target procs his passive, which also slows the target and speeds up Ekko's movement speed.

For bursting down squishies, I'd most definitely want Ekko's,

Point I'm trying to make, is that Numbers in a kit don't tell the entire story. You ahve to look at the kit as a whole.

The VermintideJun 9, 20155 votes

{quoted}

You all keep blindly throwing out numbers, and I don't think anyone has refuted the actual numbers. But your leave out the rest of the kit, Passive : Diana has to melee a champion 3 times to get her passive to proc, and her passive cleaves 2 targets other than her primary Ekko can stack his passive up with spell cast, hence 2 Q's, then a Dash and his first AA on target procs his passive, which also slows the target and speeds up Ekko's movement speed.

For bursting down squishies, I'd most definitely want Ekko's,

Point I'm trying to make, is that Numbers in a kit don't tell the entire story. You ahve to look at the kit as a whole.

You're not saying than Dianna can stack her passive on other units and she don't have a 3s CD on it.

I Main SwainJun 10, 20152 votes

for bursting down squishies, as someone who has played both quite a bit, I would pick Diana in a heartbeat. her mobility is more reliable as well as her burst, her shield as well is far more reliable, and while his passive does more damage and can be stacked with abilities, you aren't going to hit his q very often against someone who knows how to dodge unless you're right on top of them. his ability also has a cd, whereas Diana's doesn't and still deals a ton of damage.

N30NP4NDAJun 10, 20151 votes

dont you mean .2

Neo CyrusJun 10, 20153 votes

0.2 + 0.6, same skill, same cost, same cast.

Vegas DadJun 9, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I played a lot of Diana and Ekko in Hexakill and can confirm that. Diana can delete squishys with full HP in one combo if she hits Q and has Ludens / Lichbane ( and you won't see that coming, it hits you and you're gone). Ekko on the other hand will stay back until he is sure to get a kill, he needs to harass first.

Are you stupid or just like lying? Diana 100% must hit her q's, you 100% see it coming, you have plenty of time to to react and actually avoid it, if it does hit you you, diana is in it to win it, if your support is on the ball or your team has some shields to buffer you that is it she is now stuck in the middle of your team. Diana is the prototype of what is an acceptable assassin. Diana also has a built in delay for reactivating her second ult which is her full combo. Also diana has to wait to see if her q hits before she can use her ult and get a reset (if you ult too soon you actually can beat your Q to the target and lose the reset even if it hits). Once her combo is done she is done, she doesnt get some cheap free safety to throw her back on the outside to wait 6 seconds to run her combo again. Diana is also incredibly weak until about level 9 because she has an incredibly small mana pool 1 full combo will clear her mana bar, and pre 6 she is epically bad, and she is always vulnerable as her gap closer is done right aka it can only be used to hop to enemy players or ENEMY minions.

Hyrum GraffJun 9, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vegas Dad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8xUnvn0G,comment-id=001b000200000001000000000001,timestamp=2015-06-09T13:33:14.478+0000)

(if you ult too soon you actually can beat your Q to the target and lose the reset even if it hits).

This is false. If you hit your Q up to .5 seconds after your R (ie, if you casted Q first), your R will reset. I believe this is also why the R does not reset instantly -- it doesn't check for moonlight right away. This allows you to do something called "Assuming the Q," where you throw your Q and then R before you know if the Q is gonna hit. It's one of the most satisfying things to do in League of Legends. Source: Former Diana Main.

doviendeJun 9, 20154 votes

This is how you play vel'koz too. If you waited for confirmed knock up before casting W, you'd never hit the EW combo. You have to wait for a good opportunity and know your limits. Same with EWR to delete someone...know when it's going to work, at what HP, in what position, and how predictable is that particular enemy player...and if you just spam shit out you'll be less effective.

Diana seems similar in that regard. You don't cast Q when it will miss.

I Main SwainJun 9, 20152 votes

first off, I would like to say that I love you for this comment.

second, teach me how to mord. a good mord carries games like stacked nasus.

Raid Boss MordeJun 10, 20152 votes

Thank you, sir. I'm just venting my frustration from everyone complaining about EVERY new champion (except Bard). Sorry if I sounded a little rude up there.

If you wanna learn Morde, just play him non-stop for awhile. He's actually a very simple champion, and pretty easy to learn. One of the biggest things to learn about him if you're using quickcast, which you should be doing, is the range of his E. If you can learn the range of that, then you can poke an enemy in lane and last hit specific minions without pushing your lane too quickly. Most of the time, you'll be pushing your lane without even trying though, so always ward up. Upgrade your trinket ASAP. Mordekaiser is weak against ganks, so get that trinket whenever you can, and always, even if you think you need that gold, buy wards. WARDS! Ok? Ok :D

Besides that, Mordekaiser doesn't scale as well as most Mages with AP, because his ratios aren't that great.

Get that Hextech first > get some boots early > if you're against someone squishy, and you're doing well, get Luden's. Funny thing about Luden's with Mordekaiser that has secured me manyyyyyy kills when they run away (this may not work since they nerfed Luden's). When you ult someone, and they manage to use all of their mobility/CC and whatever to get away, spin in circles, YES CIRCLES, and spam your skills randomly into the air (DON'T HIT ANYTHING WITH THESE SKILLS). This will charge up Luden's, and each time it hits 100, Luden's will proc from anywhere on the map from whoever was ulted and hurt them even more. It works, and it's an amazing way to counter that evil potion they drink.

Besides that, my normal build ends up: item 3152 item 3285 item 3001 (if against AP team or mid) item 3157 (if their AD champs are bugging you) item 3135 item 3020 and if you ever get a huge lead and get fed, get item 3089 . Yes, he doesn't scale very well with high amounts of AP, but his ultimate will take about 50-60% of their HP lategame with this. So take it if ahead ;)

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask!

I Main SwainJun 10, 20152 votes

thanks! while we're on the topic of mord, how the crap do you lane against him? at least as someone that isn't a ranged poke champ. cho or trundle for example. so far the only reliable thing I've found is to just build a bunch of mr early and I can fight him once I get a little dmg, but that tends to take a while when im tower farming.

Raid Boss MordeJun 10, 20153 votes

If we aren't talking about ranged/poke champs, then play champs who can outsustain Mordekaiser. This will kill him in trades! Your name is "I Main Swain".... Swain is a pretty big counter Mordekaiser. I've always had some trouble killing a swain on my own as him. Nasus is another threat, because he'll just farm and farm while ignoring your poke after getting Specter's Cowl. His passive lifesteal will heal him from your poke. In trades, Nasus is tankier, and can outsustain all of Mordekaiser's burst. Irelia is another fine example of "get rekt Morde". She will outsustain you in trades, and her 2 seconds stun will make you really squishy (no damage = no tanky for morde). She can also build tank and still deal lots of damage.

So in the end, just try to out-tank and out-sustain him.

I Main SwainJun 10, 20152 votes

lol wtf someone downvoted your comment for some reason.

swain I am aware is pretty strong against mord, if given the option I will typically go for swain unless we need someone else or the rest of their team would make my life crap. anyways, that's what I figured. my last match I went up against him as trundle. wound up just tower farming and trying to die as little as possible (jayce was roaming top occasionally) and by 15-20 min I had merc treads, a specters cowl, a negatron cloak, and a bilgewater cutlass. at that point I was able to win trades with him from there on out. thanks for the help :D

Raid Boss MordeJun 10, 20152 votes

I don't think people like me for my posts above these ones, or they just don't like Mordekaiser.... PEOPLE, UGH x.x.

Anyways, I would say go Swain against Mordekaiser whenever you can, and try to get item 3165 ! I haven't played Swain enough to know if this item is any good on him, but against Mordekaiser, this will wreck him. Funny thing is, this item counters both of them, but building it on Mordekaiser gives some wasted stats.

Once you get your items as Trundle, get tanky and your sustain (specters cowl and bilgewater), you would be able to beat him. One day, I hope Mordekaiser gets his rework soon so he isn't so oppressive to play against, but for now, all you can day is poke, take his hits, and out sustain him! Hope I helped :D you're welcome!

I Main SwainJun 10, 20153 votes

morello isn't bad on swain, but it certainly is beat by other items. I typically build item 3001 item 3027 item 3157 item 3020 item 3116 and then the last item is situational, usually a item 3065 or item 3102

Baron of BreadJun 9, 20158 votes

The idea with Ekko is that he is supposed to be the utility assassin, for when you need more utility and some fool to get blown up. Taking out his utility would ruin his identity (at least the planned identity) and I would like there to be a utility option for assassination style play.

KeevalroyJun 9, 201525 votes

The idea with Ekko is that he is supposed to be the utility assassin

In what universe is this a good idea?

Kalista is supposed to be a mobility ADC. The last mobility ADC Lucian got reworked a hundred times before he was tolerable. Then they decided "Ya know what, we haven't learned from this experience. Here T, go nuts on this new champ - get that toxicity real deep in her kit."

Having a unique identity doesn't mean it's excusable. There are identities that just don't work, and these two examples are destined to be problematic and unfun for everyone but the person playing them.

Zenthon PrimeJun 9, 201511 votes

I think we can safely say the following identities, to the best of everyone's knowledge, NEVER work: -Tank Assassin (Lee Sin and Elise, and yes I know that wasn't the intended role for either champion) -Safe Assassin (LB, Zed pre-nerf, Ekko to some extent) -Mobility ANYTHING except Support (because at this point Riot can't be trusted making mobile champions)

IMO, there is nothing wrong with a utility assassin. Ekko's problems are rooted in the fact that he pays ALMOST NOTHING for his utility. I mean, his ult has crazy outplay potential with the flash-back and heal......and does more damage than Veigar ult in an AoE. His passive slows......and also deals a crapton of damage. His E lets him jump two walls......and applies on-hit effects, spell effects and his passive. Sure, he has slightly less damage than other assassins, but he actually has more sheer utility than some supports.

glkzJun 9, 20158 votes

I want a law against anybody being allowed to do more dmg than Veigar's ult :<

Loken StoneheartJun 9, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8xUnvn0G,comment-id=001b00020001,timestamp=2015-06-09T02:36:38.036+0000)

The idea with Ekko is that he is supposed to be the utility assassin, for when you need more utility and some fool to get blown up. Taking out his utility would ruin his identity (at least the planned identity) and I would like there to be a utility option for assassination style play.

Utility. Assassin.

Please. Look at those words. Look at those words and figure out why this is wrong.

Akali is SO HOTJun 9, 201517 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8xUnvn0G,comment-id=001b00020001,timestamp=2015-06-09T02:36:38.036+0000)

The idea with Ekko is that he is supposed to be the utility assassin

Utility and Assassin should not go together ever.

ImHerVoiceJun 9, 20154 votes

I think his design turned out to be just a huge broken kit honestly.

Too much on him to nerf/

I shit on some guy in ranked he was like 0/5 He picks ekko next game. And lives because of his broken W 3 times after 3 seperate ganks.

He was over extended constantly but because of his broken W he didn't die pre six except 1 time.

His kit is so simple to abuse and even people that are shit at positioning/map awareness don't get punished because it's just that good.

Needs more counterplay .

Shadow GilgameshJun 9, 201510 votes

Can I just say how fucking amazing it is to actually have a champ designer talk to people when a newly released champ is in a bad spot, and telling people what types of changes are planned, and that it's happening quickly.

As opposed to a certain other designer who's name rhymes with "CertainlyP" who goes on radio silence when the shitstorm hits and we have to wait quite a few patches before the smallest of meaningful changes happen (Kalista should never have kept bonus back dashing from passive this long, like fuck)

AnotherherolostJun 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So first of all, giving his ult a mana cost is not likely to solve any of the frustration problems it might have. In the vast majority of fights it's going to be used the same way, under the same contexts. If the spell needs a downside (not saying it does) giving it a mana cost isn't going to solve that.

That said, from a design standpoint I do agree that there is something to the idea of "he's been spamming spells and is out of mana, now is my chance to strike." His ult not having a cost directly avoids the minor gameplay idea of "characters are weak when they're OOM." My bad on that one. We'll be fixing it for 5.12 by upping the cost to 100 (from 0). There were localization things that prevented it getting in for 5.11.

As a side note, adding higher mana costs across Ekko's kit (we're also upping W cost to 50 from 30 in 5.11) helps mitigate burst in an indirect manner. Higher costs means he has a harder time farming and may want to invest in more mana/regen itemization. More gold spent on mana + less gold overall = lower AP totals at X point in the game.

Yay you finally addressed the issue, I can now copy and paste this on to all the Ekko OP QQ threads.

KazaLyn ShaoJun 8, 201552 votes

Riot should really just remove the damage from Ekko's ult. Problem solved! He's supposed to reset time, not make some massive temporal explosion. Make his ult a reset + teleport + heal, remove damage. Boom, fixed. No mana necessary.

AbsoluteSadmanJun 8, 20158 votes

Id rather they remove the heal.

"Do i go in, or do i save it for an escape?"

PK ArcfireJun 8, 201529 votes

Honestly, lore-wise, his heal is non-canonical. He clearly takes residual damage during the onslaught of the fight. He isn't reversing time, but instead, taking himself out of the time stream and inserting himself back into it, thus retaining the knowledge of the battle, as well as the injuries. But then again, the lore means nothing in this game. Disregard my comment.

A Miss FortuneJun 8, 201518 votes

Are you high, the most lore Riot ever cares about is;

"Kalista is a hoe with infinite dashes and she throws spears and stuff."

"Ekko is some time kid and he does stuff and muh #lc$bigplay$"

"Rammus is a thing."

StraleyJun 8, 201513 votes

I thought this was their actual lore. Did I read the wrong lore?

A Miss FortuneJun 8, 201532 votes

Oh sorry, I actually left out some pieces of the lore that you just can't forget.

"Miss Fortune has huge boobs and stereotypical X killed her parent so she does X for revenge"

"Sona has huge boobs and she's mute"

"Katarina has boobs"

"Akali has boobs"

"Jinx, well, she has guns...."

"Cassiopeia dies and is revived as a World War 2 Machine Gun."

Chaotic ReksJun 8, 20158 votes

I loled at the cass joke

A Miss FortuneJun 8, 20158 votes

The only joke is that it's true, have you seen a Cassiopeia with 40% CDR, you might as well just tape down your E key because that's the only thing you're gonna need.

V2msRHouI0Jun 8, 201541 votes

Honestly, lore-wise, his heal is non-canonical.

Is anything canon in these new lores?

"Karthus was a guy who liked death. Then he died. Now he's a dead guy who likes death"

Per FavoreJun 8, 201520 votes

After getting some experience fighting ekko the only thing that really bothers me is that you more or less have to kill him 'twice' unless you can 100-0 him while he is under cc that prevents spell casting. That requires poor positioning on his part and misplaying his dash. He feels very tryndameresque in being a high damage squishy that you just can't kill in a reasonable time frame.

A capable ekko seems to dictate how teamfights go regardless of who else is in the game. The ult pressure is immense and basically you're just running away from his ghost because you all die if he ults, but you also can''t kill him unless you blow all of your cc to do it. It feels like ekko's kit just puts way too much pressure on the other team without really feeling any pressure back at him because he's so safe.

Aych PiiJun 9, 20153 votes

He can't ult while his mobility is restricted, it counts as a movement spell. Not meant to completely discredit your point, just pointing out there's that much more CC that effectively stops him.

Woook3rJun 8, 20156 votes

You dont know how many times ekko has to base unless he has the blue buff. You probably dont even play ekko. You just get facerolled and come on the boards. His q costs 100 mana and is on a 5 second cooldown. He is constantly Oom.

ReymonadeJun 8, 201539 votes

That's what we call mana management. You should try it someday.