PSA Don't build Luden's echo as a support.

boricCentaur1·Apr 20, 2019·5 votes·2,258 views

Its not good its bad. Here are the reasons you build Luden's

mana 2.ap
it helps with weave clear. Now you don't need the mana as a support since the support item gives enough unless your like taric or sona. The passive does nothing as support since your not going to have the ap to do damage with it and you don't need the weave clear. The ap is nice but other ap items give similar ap like Rylai's and has a passive that helps your team, and items like liandry's do more damage since most damage supports can make use out of the passive.

Like all your doing by buying it is buying 90 ap nothing else.

36 Comments

MagicFlyingLlamaApr 20, 20193 votes

PSA: we do what we want. Accept the poke.

Reaper SorakaApr 20, 20192 votes

But I like splashing people in the face with Nami, then turning around and healing some other face with Athene's. Don't make me stop having fun. [sg-soraka]

ChaosReynApr 20, 20192 votes

I like taking Hail of Blades and splashing them mid lane with my full empowered e for half their hp at lv 1. xD

Her waveclear sucks, but her dueling potential with HoB and a gunblade rush is actually pretty decent.

SaezioApr 21, 20193 votes

Seriously? Duelling potential? You mean short trades I guess, cause I don't think she can "duel" any champion, not even to mention how she would die 10/10 times from ganks.

ChaosReynApr 22, 20192 votes

That's a fair assessment. duel potential may not be exactly accurate. Short trades you can ruin someone, and you can win duels against people who have a ton of skillshots just from the MS bonus and not catching everything to the face. But in an honest mono-a-mono slugfest, you have a point.

She actually has decent escape from ganks if you're aware enough to bubble and gtfo before the jng can gapclose...but that's technically situational.

ChaosReynApr 20, 20192 votes

Ekko's Q > rylais slow. Rylais is garbage on him.
supports like mana and the freedom to spam abilities too. There's nothing wrong with more mana, as it means more abilities and more damage if you're able to stay in lane.
If I were to play Ekko as a support, I'd definitely be building more AP than just Luden's, and I'm sure you know this is going to be most people.
Don't tell me what to do.

boricCentaur1Apr 20, 20191 votes

Ekko doesn't even build luden's in mid lane he gets Protobelt so why would ekko get luden's as support and he is not a support.
Again the support items gives more then enough mana and the mana is one of biggies reasons you get luden's so your not having freedom your just wasting gold.
Ap support do build more then just one ap item but they don't get them fast enough so the passive does nothing.

ChaosReynApr 20, 20191 votes

Wrong: he doesn't rush Ludens midlane. He does get it later.

Also wrong: there is no such thing as too much mana. There is quite a spectacle of not having enough.

And wrong a 3rd time: if your games aren't allowing you to complete any of your items, you're not farming your gold item fast enough.

boricCentaur1Apr 20, 20191 votes

No one builds luden's even on ekko no one. Like it sucks on ekko since he doesn't need a lot of mana and if he does lich is way better and also luden's sucks later into the game like ekko doesn't make use out of the passive since his weave clear is good without it and he doesn't need it for the damage either so it's pointless to build it on him.

Again how many times supports don't run out of mana unless there playing wrong so you're just wasting gold.

I don't think you know how support items work support will always be down on gold that's why support items are cheap.

ChaosReynApr 20, 20192 votes

I main support, and I can wholeheartedly tell you that if you're super far behind in gold, you are not proccing your gold item enough. If you cant finish spellthief quest by 8 minutes you are having a bad game. if you cant finish it by 10, you shouldn't be playing that champion with spellthief's.

if you want to proc your spellthiefs a lot, you use your mana to harass the enemy. You will need to harass pretty consistently, and there's nothing wrong with harassing the enemy off of their cs. You know what that requires, and what you're going to want a decent amount of?

Please stop trying to assume you know how to play the game if you can't grasp basics...

boricCentaur1Apr 21, 20191 votes

Yeah that is why every pro game the support is down gold and items because there bad at the game. Again support items all very cheap for a reason.

Also again you should not run out of mana with a support item. Maybe instead of saying the same stuff that I have said wrong say why it is not.

ChaosReynApr 22, 20191 votes

I think I've fed you long enough honestly. I told you exactly why it's wrong, and you seem to be of the opinion that because the competitive circuit games (NOT solo queue) use different team strategies instead of playing their best from a solo directive that it means my input is invalid.

boricCentaur1Apr 22, 20191 votes

NO YOU HAVE NOT TOLD ME WHY YOU RUN OUT OF MANA AS SUPPORT ARE YOU TROLLING LIKE I CAN LOOK BACK SO LYING DOESN'T HELP YOU. Like all you said is you need mana to poke like is not a reason why I'm wrong

Also I said high elo and competitive and yes that does invalid you since supports earn gold the same fucking way as soloQ.

ChaosReynApr 22, 20192 votes

aaaaaand there goes the fury.

you are far beyond normal, civil conversation, and you cannot fathom where you could be (and ARE) incorrect in this matter, so I'm just going to leave you with your hatred and unwillingness to accept an opposing viewpoint. Please don't bother attempting to say that's a win for you either: these boards know.

boricCentaur1Apr 23, 20191 votes

So you lied and your saying I can't have a civil conversation ok.

Also me accepting your viewpoint would mean I think your right but I don't so why would I do that?

ZephyrDrakeApr 20, 20192 votes

it also increases poke, most supports don't care about rylais since most supports already have CC in their kits or cannot really make use of it. Mana is never a bad thing to have on supports and the support item alone isn't enough. There is a reason so many support items have mana regen and depending on the champion eve that much isn't enough. AP is always good to have plain and simple. It increases not only your damage but whatever heals/shields you might have. There is a reason mages rush the damn item!

boricCentaur1Apr 20, 20191 votes

Mages rush it for the mana and only mana that's it no other reason they rush it, same it's the same reason they rushed morellonomicon back when it give mana NO ONE IS BUILDING IT FOR THE DAMAGE.

Also most supports do care about rylai's every damage support builds it and if your not a damage support luden's does nothing for you since every enchanter item does more for you.

ZephyrDrakeApr 20, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Mages rush it for the mana and only mana that's it no other reason they rush it, same it's the same reason they rushed morellonomicon back when it give mana NO ONE IS BUILDING IT FOR THE DAMAGE.

Also most supports do care about rylai's every damage support builds it and if your not a damage support luden's does nothing for you since every enchanter item does more for you.

"mana and only mana" if they only cared about the mana they would stop at the lost chapter. No support cares about rylais tell me a single support that actually builds it in any consistent way? "people don't build Luden's for it's damage" thanks for telling me that everything that you say is to be thrown out the window

boricCentaur1Apr 20, 20191 votes

You build into lunen's since it gives ap what did you start playing after 8.4 since AGAIN ITS THE SAME FUCKING THING AS WHEN MORELLONOMICON GIVE MANA. If lunen's did not give mana then mages would just rush GLP-800.

Brand,Zyra and the reason is it gives them a shit load more utility since they have aoe and it gives them the same amount of ap as Luden's and you are not wasting gold since they make use out of the passive and the hp. Now name me one support that builds luden's and why?

ZephyrDrakeApr 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You build into lunen's since it gives ap what did you start playing after 8.4 since AGAIN ITS THE SAME FUCKING THING AS WHEN MORELLONOMICON GIVE MANA. If lunen's did not give mana then mages would just rush GLP-800.

Brand,Zyra and the reason is it gives them a shit load more utility since they have aoe and it gives them the same amount of ap as Luden's and you are not wasting gold since they make use out of the passive and the hp. Now name me one support that builds luden's and why?

you literally just said "they build it only for the mana" now you are telling me they also build it for the AP it gives? Brand and Zyra are MAGES that went to bot lane since they suck in mid. Now give me ACTUAL SUPPORTS that build Rylias please instead of champions that you would be stupid to not build it regardless of whether they are mages or supports. Are you going to tell me something of value? or are you going to say something else? Luden's didn't give mana before and people were still building it. They might go for GLP because what's the other lost chapter item? Seraph's? wow you sure told me something! that if Luden's doesn't have mana then the choices would be Seraph's and GLP... which more than likely means they would just skip mana entirely and just get it from elsewhere since GLP is terrible and Seraph's isn't useful on the vast majority of the champions

boricCentaur1Apr 21, 20191 votes

What are you talking about no champion moves to a different role because there bad at one it does not work that way. Also im talking about the role not the class and brand and zyra's main role is support and also riot has zyra fucking listed as a SUPPORT. ALSO THERE ARE 0 ENCHANTER THAT BUILD PURE AP. Like why you trying to change what were talking about since i'm clearly talking about the role since again no enchanter is building luden's unless there trolling. Again what support builds luden's?

You build into trifoce for the sheen proc since sheen by its self is weaker then triforce its the same here you build luden's for the mana but mana alone is weak so you build into luden's AND ALSO NO ONE RUSHED LUDEN'S BEFORE IT HAD MANA and also it give more ap and ms meaning the passive was up more and did more damage.

Tim From WorkApr 21, 20192 votes

If you really think people don’t build Ludens for damage as well as mana you might want to rethink that~~~~

boricCentaur1Apr 21, 20191 votes

The main point you get luden's is the mana if it has no mana it would be built later in the game game like before.

SaezioApr 21, 20191 votes

What you are saying is not true, simply because GLP and Tear have equal or greater mana and they are not even close in popularity to luden's. Luden's is built because of the fast AP and the passive. When archangel's had more base AP (mana % conversion was the same with seraphs+ I believe the raw was a tad higher too) it was picked up basically by everyone. It must have been early season 8 that none bought luden and everyone was going for tear no matter the champion.

boricCentaur1Apr 21, 20191 votes

Morellonomicon disproves your point luden's damage was a good bit higher back when it did not have mana and yet people built morellonomicon over it when all the item had over luden's was mana

Luden's gives enough mana meaning you won't need more and both tear and glp are worst since tear takes to long for most mages and glp is basically worst luden's. Also luden's was buffed and tear and archangels were nerfed and that lead to luden's being a better mana item vs the other's.

SaezioApr 21, 20191 votes

Are you trolling? Back when morello had mana, luden's and tear didn't even have CDR. Lost chapter passive was only on morelo.

Talk about season 8+ please. Also, the mages mana regen adjustments happened then.

You can't compare items from different eras with different metas and different runes and different base stats. Compare current items for the love of god. Pre-season 8+

boricCentaur1Apr 21, 20191 votes

I'm didn't comparing items from different eras I compared a season 7 item to a season 7 item and a season 8 item to 2 season 8 items that's they I broke it into 2 paragraphs since there two different points. Maybe read better.

Also mana changes made getting mana items more important since they lost mana pre level.

SaezioApr 21, 20191 votes

Ok, let me make it even more clear.

If Seraph's has more mana than luden, and GLP has more mana/gold than luden. How can you claim people are building luden for the mana?

I said people pick luden for the damage it provides compared to the other 2 equivalent items, and you contradicted me by saying Luden wasn't picked when morello existed, when at that time Luden's was a Raw AP + Ms item(no cdr, no mana, different and weird buildpath) and morello back then was the only mana item with 20% cdr and an extremely convenient build path.

boricCentaur1Apr 21, 20191 votes

Ok I have said why you build luden's over saraph's and glp but I will explain it again most mages don't need the amount of mana that saraph's gives and they have a hard time stacking it so you end up getting the ap much later into the game meaning luden's is much better and for GLP it's just worst luden's.

Ok wtf do you disagree with me on? Since now your saying the damage is the reason you pick it over equivalent items and the main reason you build the other 2 is mana and if you say there equivalent doesn't that mean the main reason you build luden's is the mana. Like do you think I don't it does damage since I do and I said damage is a reason you build it but again that's is not the main reason.

SaezioApr 21, 20191 votes

If it was for the mana they would be rushing tear.

They build luden for the damage.

hrooza dota Apr 21, 20192 votes

got it will build item 1402

hiyaresApr 20, 20191 votes

yeah until they nerf support gold income aint gonna happen

Crispy0SnakeApr 20, 20192 votes

"until" LOL an item like ludens takes 17min to make, you want a supp to hit 1st item at 40min? be prepared for an army of autofills

Jimmy RustlesApr 20, 20191 votes

You can pry my luden rush Dr Mundo support out of my cold dead hands

XhaidenApr 21, 20191 votes

Depends on play-style and the champs played as support. Some people play aggressive APC champs as support (they can compensate for the lack of ap damage - if both mid and top chose ad - but it can also work as a 2nd apc). As an aggressive AP support ( Zyra Velkoz and so on... ) - your efficiency comes from harassing the enemy with abilities. As long as you're doing a good job at pressuring the enemy - without doing CS both lane (cause then you're trolling your adc) - you can still be a good support. While latter on you can also play as a 2nd APC.

Some players - get auto-filled and they don't pick any support items (thus - they gain no gold from their role as a support), instead they go ap items from start and troll the adc - by taking his farm. Those are the only players that i wouldn't call support (more like trolls). And also a big NO NO! Unless it's some premade who plays 2 apc bot lane (something that worked for them). The usual meta is not mandatory and far from being as efficient as it used to be (back when LoL revolved around ADC's as the main source of dealing tons of damage).

boricCentaur1Apr 21, 20191 votes

But again luden's does less damage, a brand would lose damage if he built it over liandry's since the passive is much better and the support item gives enough mana.