Alistar in the Jungle

Blue Collar Bear··0 votes·595 views

To begin, I'd like to state that I wasn't around for when jungle cow was popular. I started in the middle of season 4, and I've picked up Alistar over the last few months. I've played him in most roles and different compositions. However, I really like playing him jungle.

Now, Riot has stated in patch 4.20 that in the presseason jungle they were aiming not to have to nerf the optimal junglers, but create a new jungle where strategic diversity could thrive. To do this they made the new jungle much harsher and stronger (20% increased base health and AD, as well as greater scaling in small camps). Champions with sustain are rewarded in the new jungle, and damage heavy junglers (i.e. the original optimal junglers) have to balance themselves carefully to be able to gank lanes safely whilst being able to return to the jungle as well. Tank junglers, though, have an odd place in the new jungle. In the old jungle, they were able to use the Quill Coat passive as a sort of crutch to make up for their low clear time and have adequate clear. In the new jungle, tank junglers can start Gromp for a measly twelve magic damage over three seconds at level one. Theoretically, one could have the buff always on to improve clear time, but it is impractical. Now, not all tank junglers are unhealthy in the new jungle. Some do very well from what I have seen, though I do not have personal experience with many. So, to revisist, junglers with sustain can simply stay at a relative safe level of health, damage heavy junglers can clear quickly and rely on itemized sustain, but what can tank junglers do? Most cannot absorb the damage or clear quickly enough to avoid losing a substantial amount of health (barring sustain tank junglers).

Alistar is unhealthy in the jungle. He cannot clear quickly enough to avoid the damage he is forced to take. He cannot sustain well enough nor absorb all the damage. The changes I propose would be either to revert his passive to its state before patch 4.12 or rework his healing ability. I believe the former will do the trick, because originally that was nerfed to stop him from thriving in the jungle. The jungle is stronger now. It will balance itself out.

Thoughts

EDIT: After some testing and more research, I've found more ways to improve his clear time and sustain. He is slightly more bearable, but I do think he should get a buff to improve how far behind he gets vs. other champions in the same situation.

16 Comments

thinking man3 votes

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Blue Collar Bear1 votes

He has much to offer in the jungle. I disagree with that he does not belong there.

As for Riot not wanting him there, the patch notes read that they simply don't want him to be overbearing in the jungle (to quote, "oppressive gank train"). Surely with the new jungle being as difficult as it is, it might be time for a buff.

thinking man3 votes

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Blue Collar Bear1 votes

The only buffs he received were in relation to his mana costs. In the jungle, those buffs are a little irrelevant. Even with his original mana costs, he wouldn't be mana starved due to buffs. Tack on the new changes to smite rewards and the constant sustain from the new machete, it is quite unlikely he would ever be mana starved. Therefore, the buffs do not matter.

I believe there is a way to balance him in the jungle. He ends up behind even in games that are winning, because he can't clear.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

They don't want Alistar to jungle cause of his WQ gank combo, which highly resembles a Malphite ult, which is somehow cheating.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

There's quite a few differences, to be honest.

Malphite's ultimate is one skill from his kit. He has three other active skills that are damage / cc oriented. Alistar's combo is two of his skills, the only two that deal burst damage. Alistar will deal more damage to a single unit because of the combo, but Malphite will deal more aoe damage. The scaling on Malphite's ult is also better, and he can engage from much farther away. Alistar has to get closer to initiate with his combo and it makes susceptible to cc effects. His W is also able to be interrupted while Malphite's ultimate cannot be interrupted barring death. The missle speed on Malphite's ult is faster as well, meaning there is less time to react. They're not remotely the same, except that they serve the same function.

As for cheating, I guess the only reason it might be is that it was originally a glitch that they kept in.

Hullabaloo9072 votes

Riot doesnt want alistar in the jungle, because if alistar could jungle, he would be too good. NO PLACE WOULD BE SAFE! Your pushing your lane, he knocks you under the turret. Your in the middle of the lane, he knocks you far enough back that your dead. Your under your turret, he knocks you out. You run from him every time you see him, and he runs you down and wq's you.

Thus, they banished alistar jungle to the darkness, never to be seen again.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Until a member of the Riot team tells me that he will not be buffed, I will still argue for it. Tank junglers in general have been made very weak by patch 4.20 and several are receiving attention in the next patch. Aside from that, what you're arguing is that his kit is too good to be in the jungle. This is his kit and if he received a buff, it wouldn't change how he ganks lanes. A buff would change how he sustains in the jungle and how fast he clears it, which is what I am arguing for.

To give an example, I've read some posts about how weak Nautilus is in the new jungle. He was a great jungler before that saw a lot of play in high tier gaming. Now, he has to back after his buffs.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

There's room for interpretation when it comes to words, you know. They only state that they don't want him to take up the "crown" again. They are steering him towards a support oriented role and complimenting his support abilities while nerfing his jungling ability. They don't want him to be overbearingly good, like how Warwick is with Sabre. The jungle camps were buffed to the point that there are many unviable junglers. Buffing his clear time would only put him back where he was before the jungle patch. He couldn't clear that well before it either.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Bump. I'm still looking to talk about this.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I'd still like to talk about this. Perhaps, someone could play Alistar in the jungle and see if they agree.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Riot seriously didn't plan for Alistar to be a jungler due to his pre-6 Malphite ult with his WQ combo, and they will nerf him as much as people would still want him as a jungler.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I've heard that there are plans to remove his W-Q combo. Know anything about that, maybe?

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

I don't think so. Look, Alistar is a support main, being a secondary jungle is out of the question to be given buffs to.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Eh. The way it's looking is that the new jungle is going to be most optimal for support junglers that operate on a low budget. I wouldn't be too sure about him staying in the support role.

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