Let's talk Refillable Potion!

Blue Collar Bear·Nov 20, 2015·28 votes·8,143 views

For a long time, I've loved this idea. I brought Flask a lot when it was around, but now, I feel like it's become a bit of a noob trap, though. I brought it in the jungle once, and I was so confused as to why I died on my third camp. I've never had an issue dying in the jungle, even on champions with poor clear. Turns out, this item, on two charges, only gives 200 total health back. For a comparative price, I could've got three normal health potions, which healed for 450 total health. Why is this a recommended item? I play in D5 elo, and I made this mistake. This could really wreak some havoc on players who are more casual.

I don't know, guys. I've really loved this idea, but I don't think it should be a recommended item.

50 Comments

Slamurai JackNov 21, 20158 votes

item 2031 is a noob trap. 3 potions gives way more sustain on the first clear and you don't even need potions once you finish your upgraded smite.

High5Nov 21, 20151 votes

Bought it once, realized how weak it is and just buy normal pots now instead. Total noob trap item.

YumaS2AstralNov 21, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EiXXaOym,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-11-21T01:03:40.268+0000)

is a noob trap. 3 potions gives way more sustain on the first clear and you don't even need potions once you finish your upgraded smite.

I've also realized that this item is a noob trap, I've started to just purchase normal potions, and now I can clear the jungle without serious problems.

If item 2032 was able to be purchased as a first item by junglers, I would surely consider purchasing it. But I feel like, by the time I buy Hunter's Potion, I could just purchase normal potions, and upgrade my jungle item way faster.

By the way, is item 2033 also a noob trap for laning? For example, I used to go Hecarim, Fizz, and Kha'Zix top and I would almost always start with the old Crystalline Flask and 3 potions. But now I don't feel that this item gives me much. I started to just start the games with item 1055 + 1 pot (except in case of Fizz, in which I start with item 1056 even when I go AD) - There are lots of other champions in which I used to use Flask + 3 pots and now I started to use Doran items instead. Examples include Jax, Irelia, and Wukong.

Slamurai JackNov 21, 20152 votes

I don't think item 2033 is nearly as bad because at least it gives you some combat strength when you use it. item 2031 and item 2032 however are complete noobtraps because refillable potion is enormously inferior to normal potions and hunters potion, as nice as it is, loses it's usefulness by the time its cost is reasonable. I've been able to farm up 700 gold before backing on every single jungler I've tried, and the upgraded smite gives enough sustain to make the refillable potions a waste of gold on every jungler. Even Kayle and Wukong don't need it.

DivewingNov 21, 20151 votes

item 2033 is only bad because you cant grab normal potions with it (or mana potions), which flask previously gave the option for.

Jungle Lux GodNov 20, 20154 votes

Refillable Potion should not be in the recommended items at all.

Recommended items are specifically made for players who don't know what to do with the champion and need some guidance to help them along. Refillable potion is a trap item for those players because it won't give enough sustain to get those players through the jungle.

There are some exceptions like Fiddlesticks or Nunu, but other than that Refillable Potion should never be in the recommended items.

A LiberalNov 21, 20153 votes

o.o why would fiddlesticks need refillable potion

Jungle Lux GodNov 21, 20152 votes

The only good answer for that is that you can start Hunter's Talisman and Refillable Potion with the intent of upgrading Refillable Potion into Hunter's Potion for its mana sustain, but other than that stay away from Refillable Potion on Fiddlesticks.

And yes, Refillable Potion is in Fiddlesticks' recommended items.

A LiberalNov 21, 20151 votes

Ew, I know it's also on Kindred's reccomended items even though you know... she has that whole incredible sustain thing from moving a bit and than attacking >_<

Jungle Lux GodNov 21, 20151 votes

Kindred is kind of different than Fiddlesticks because with Kindred, you can mess up her sustain by not kiting the jungle camps properly, which is especially true for a player that is new to Kindred.

With Fiddlesticks, you literally just press W and wait. It's literally that easy.

A LiberalNov 21, 20151 votes

True... you literally CAN'T die to a camp as fiddle unless you're braindead

Athenes LuluNov 21, 20151 votes

item 3089 on supports' recommended items never forget

I mean we all know they can barely afford a Morello's...

Vincent LuciusNov 21, 20151 votes

...Right. ._ . Sooooooo pooor.

Soraka item 3089 item 3041 item 3504 item 3165 item 2045 item 3069 .

Athenes LuluNov 21, 20151 votes

That build takes supports 40+ minutes to get unless they're seriously so snowbally ahead with their team.

PassionlipNov 20, 20153 votes

They are already buffing it on the PBE - it works a bit badly and you aren't wrong, but if you upgrade it to Hunter's Potion you will not have any more problems about sustain. If you want to use it and can't end the jungle route, try to stop at wolves or the red side version of them, go back, get the hunter's potion and go to stay in the jungle A LOT.

Blue Collar BearNov 20, 20154 votes

{quoted}

They are already buffing it on the PBE - it works a bit badly and you aren't wrong, but if you upgrade it to Hunter's Potion you will not have any more problems about sustain. If you want to use it and can't end the jungle route, try to stop at wolves or the red side version of them, go back, get the hunter's potion and go to stay in the jungle A LOT.

Not all champions can use the mana in Hunter's Potion, and the jungle enchant was already increased in price. I can't delay my power spike anymore when there's already sustain built into the jungle item. There's also the issue that Hunter's Potion heals for even less per charge. To be cost efficient, I'd have to use it several times over. Why should I buy it, and not regular health pots? I get more health, faster, and for cheaper. I don't need 300 health total over 40 seconds when I could just get 600 over the same time period. It's not a useless item, but I am failing to understand how or why it's good.

AATTRROOXXNov 20, 20151 votes

It is mostly a replacement for ranger's trailblazer so that champs who have a hard time surviving later on are able to excel. If you haven't found success with junglers who are good later, but not early then you have plenty of time to test the best build before ranked comes back.

SpecterVonBarenNov 21, 20151 votes

Issue with that is that trailblazer came with your jungle enchant, yes you could lose out on a certain smite but if you needed the sustain then you got it. With potions, you have to sink a lot of gold into buying and upgrading them and then sink even more gold into your jungle item which also costs more now.

The Yetii RiderNov 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not all champions can use the mana in Hunter's Potion, and the jungle enchant was already increased in price. I can't delay my power spike anymore when there's already sustain built into the jungle item. There's also the issue that Hunter's Potion heals for even less per charge. To be cost efficient, I'd have to use it several times over. Why should I buy it, and not regular health pots? I get more health, faster, and for cheaper. I don't need 300 health total over 40 seconds when I could just get 600 over the same time period. It's not a useless item, but I am failing to understand how or why it's good.

First of all, it's automatic. That's why it's good. Because if you need to gank or hold mid or contest drag or whatever, it takes one extra micro off your mind. And it's not 300 health over 40 seconds, it's 60 health per jungle camp you take PLUS 300 health over 40 seconds. So if you farm at least 6 camps before you back (which you should) it's as much as if you got and used 5 health pots.

As for the mana, not every champ who wants Flask needs the mana either (it's the main reason Vladimir doesn't start Flask). Riot doesn't balance around manaless champions and they never have. Manaless champions shouldn't have good health sustain in the jungle anyway, their benefit is that they don't have to worry about resource sustain. If you want health sustain, the 10% life steal from Knife should be enough for you as a manaless. If it's not, then stop playing that champ in the jungle, because it's probably Zed or Kat.

Hunter's Potion is fantastic on Mundo by the way, wasted mana be damned.

Blue Collar BearNov 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

First of all, it's automatic. That's why it's good. Because if you need to gank or hold mid or contest drag or whatever, it takes one extra micro off your mind. And it's not 300 health over 40 seconds, it's 60 health per jungle camp you take PLUS 300 health over 40 seconds. So if you farm at least 6 camps before you back (which you should) it's as much as if you got and used 5 health pots.

As for the mana, not every champ who wants Flask needs the mana either (it's the main reason Vladimir doesn't start Flask). Riot doesn't balance around manaless champions and they never have. Manaless champions shouldn't have good health sustain in the jungle anyway, their benefit is that they don't have to worry about resource sustain. If you want health sustain, the 10% life steal from Knife should be enough for you as a manaless. If it's not, then stop playing that champ in the jungle, because it's probably Zed or Kat.

Hunter's Potion is fantastic on Mundo by the way, wasted mana be damned.

It's cool and all that it's automatic, but micro is part of the game. It's not a good argument for it's viability, since remembering to press a button is not that hard. It's only 60 health per jungle camp, if you're already at max stacks. There's also the point that health potions give more health faster. For ganks, 60 - 100 health over 8/10 seconds is terrible.

This was never about second clear or third clear. After your first back, you buy knife and you have enough sustain to simply survive. This is about how Refillable Potion is a noob trap, since most junglers can't do more than two camps without backing on it. It's about the viability of such an item in the jungle.

I agree that resourceless champions should not sustain easily. It's a good point, but they're also already gated by cooldowns.

The Yetii RiderNov 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's cool and all that it's automatic, but micro is part of the game. It's not a good argument for it's viability, since remembering to press a button is not that hard. It's only 60 health per jungle camp, if you're already at max stacks. There's also the point that health potions give more health faster. For ganks, 60 - 100 health over 8/10 seconds is terrible.

This was never about second clear or third clear. After your first back, you buy knife and you have enough sustain to simply survive. This is about how Refillable Potion is a noob trap, since most junglers can't do more than two camps without backing on it. It's about the viability of such an item in the jungle.

I agree that resourceless champions should not sustain easily. It's a good point, but they're also already gated by cooldowns.

Except champions like Rengar, Malphite, Kha and others have to back after their third camp, WAY before they can afford knife. Hunters Potion is there for when you get killed or forced out of your own jungle. This is a super fast meta and Shaco and Lee Sin are incredibly popular, which means invades are incredibly popular.

Blue Collar BearNov 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except champions like Rengar, Malphite, Kha and others have to back after their third camp, WAY before they can afford knife. Hunters Potion is there for when you get killed or forced out of your own jungle. This is a super fast meta and Shaco and Lee Sin are incredibly popular, which means invades are incredibly popular.

I play those champions, and I can do full clears. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Invades are really popular, though. That part sucks. It might be a good idea to buy a Hunter's Potion after being invaded. It sounds like a good idea, but I'd rather go for my other component.

MegaManYYZNov 20, 20152 votes

they are increasing the heal to 120 over 12sec in the next patch, I don't know if that will be good enough however.

KaeblenNov 20, 20152 votes

It's only recommended on champions that have their own sustain / survivability without needing it. It's recommended for Gold Efficiency, on refill, for those who can sustain (due to their kits) with fewer pots. 50gp = 150 hp x3 = 450 hp. 150gp = 100 hp x2 x (1 + number of refills) = = 200 hp on purchase = 400 hp on first back = 600 hp on second back on your 3rd or 4th back, it's paid for itself. Yes, you get a bit less sustain, but as others have said it's being buffed, making it even more gold efficient than it is now.

On a side note, since item 2031 is being buffed, shouldn't item 2032 and item 2033 be buffed along side it? I'm starting to feel like those two are the trap.

Celeste BenalNov 20, 20151 votes

I have yet to see a jungle recommended items page without it.

KaeblenNov 20, 20151 votes

Hmmm... I just checked a few on custom games. RekSai is one that recommends item 2003 , but not a lot of others.

It may be because of the item 2032 upgrade, but in lane the principle should still stand. (I do not recommend using the refillable potion in jungle. Even Nunu struggles with that.)

iluvalarNov 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

50gp = 150 hp x3 = 450 hp. 150gp = 100 hp x2 x (1 + number of refills) = = 200 hp on purchase = 400 hp on first back = 600 hp on second back on your 3rd or 4th back, it's paid for itself. Yes, you get a bit less sustain, but as others have said it's being buffed, making it even more gold efficient than it is now.

It can be sold back for 60gold so you only pay for 270 hp + 60 gold depot and you get 200 hp per back. On the other hand, all potions (including red) are nerfed to a point it's questionnable now. It takes less then 4 minutes to a rejuvenation bead on a mean champion to generate its cost-sell value in potion...

KaeblenNov 20, 20151 votes

well, I can't argue about the item 1006 bead.

Blue Collar BearNov 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's only recommended on champions that have their own sustain / survivability without needing it. It's recommended for Gold Efficiency, on refill, for **those who can sustain ** (due to their kits) with fewer pots. 50gp = 150 hp x3 = 450 hp. 150gp = 100 hp x2 x (1 + number of refills) = = 200 hp on purchase = 400 hp on first back = 600 hp on second back on your 3rd or 4th back, it's paid for itself. Yes, you get a bit less sustain, but as others have said it's being buffed, making it even more gold efficient than it is now.

On a side note, since is being buffed, shouldn't and be buffed along side it? I'm starting to feel like those two are the trap.

Honestly, I don't need health on my second or third clear. Having a missing 400 health on my first clear is a pretty big deal, and even junglers who can sustain, that's still a pretty big deal. Outside of Nunu, Fiddlesticks, and Warwick, I still have to buy normal health pots to be healthy enough for a full clear / gank.

Walking into lane with only three stacks on a potion that gives a negligible amount of sustain and damage in lane is very underwhelming. You cannot replace the amount of sustain that some laners lost from Flask with this item. It's mandatory to go into lane with combat effective stats from things like Cloth/5, Doran's items, or even Boots.

Joe DreddNov 21, 20152 votes

lmao who couldnt tell that that was a shit item from the second it was created i've never built it.

GhostOfShrimpmasNov 21, 20152 votes

I've never used it, but I think it's shit

Joe DreddNov 21, 20151 votes

I'm sorry non shit players don't have to build something to know if it's trash or not

Penguin EclipseNov 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why is this a recommended item? I play in D5 elo, and I made this mistake. This could really wreak some havoc on players who are more casual.

It's actually already doing exactly that. It's probably recommended because over the course of the game it will save gold. But it is causing a lot of players to get executed in the meantime which puts them behind by more gold than they will save.

Blue Collar BearNov 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EiXXaOym,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-20T16:14:34.954+0000)

It's actually already doing exactly that. It's probably recommended because over the course of the game it will save gold. But it is causing a lot of players to get executed in the meantime which puts them behind by more gold than they will save.

Yeah. I have junglers who die to camps in ranked, and it hurts a lot with how quickly games are ending right now. Even a buff might not fix it, since you're still missing out on over 200 health on your first clear, which can mean you're not able to gank afterwards or kill you.

AATTRROOXXNov 20, 20151 votes

It is being buffed to 125 health over 12 seconds.

Juggernaut NNov 21, 20151 votes

Hunter's potion is amazing on those who have trouble with sustain though

Xenos11111Nov 21, 20151 votes

I agree it's god-awful on the first clear. I've already managed to get executed 3 times now on wolves camp. But if you clear wolves then go back to get Hunter's Potion you don't need to worry about sustain in the jungle for the rest of the game, and it eventually becomes much more cost-efficient than health potions (especially since the price was increased to 50g).

Hunter's Potion costs the equivalent of 7 health pots but it will give you way more sustain than that (plus mana sustain) before you need to sell it to clear a slot.

NekusenNov 21, 20151 votes

i feel this new jungle helps with sustain a lot, i used to buy this refillable potion but after my first back, i wouldn't need it anymore, so i think its just better to buy normal pots at the beginning and then upgrade your jungle item.

LlaniteNov 21, 20151 votes

If you are D5 you should know how to read.

Long sword also shows in recommended, do you buy it for you first clear?

Blue Collar BearNov 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you are D5 you should know how to read.

Long sword also shows in recommended, do you buy it for you first clear?

Well, man. What can I say? Fine print is a bitch.

Miku Lv99Nov 21, 20151 votes

Yeah it's awful. It seems good to get 2 potions for the price of 3 for them being refillable. But in reality, 3 biscuits is 510 HP and 30 mana, as compared to only 200 HP and 0 mana for one refillable potion. Yeah, you get more with that mastery to increase the duration but that just makes the 3 biscuits give you even more more health. One refillable pot is just so weak early you better only get it if you're confident you're not going to need more as it's a much weaker start.

DurzakaNov 21, 20151 votes

This is assuming you took the biscuit talent, if you didnt then it is 3 health potions for 300 hp.

The entire point is that it is less healing initially, and better healing every time you base. And it does that job just fine. But the job it does do makes it a bad item for jungling.

BladeSteelNov 21, 20151 votes

no its not, if you don't take the biscuit talent its 3 health potions for 450 health

Meep ManNov 21, 20151 votes

I only get it on people who honestly dont need the amount of sustain health pots give, but could still use some sustain. Then I can actually sell it for a little bit of gold later on. A few I upgrade it into Corrupting Potion due some synergy, like Brand or Teemo.

On a side note, I dont get how they ever planned to have both Health Potions AND Refillable Potion be used at the same time. In all honesty, they should just remove Health Pots and make Refillable Potion give 150 Health over 15 seconds and have 3 charges so that it essentially does the same as the current Health Potions, but is Refillable and, through upgrades, gives more diversity in the game. I know a lot of people probably dont want Health Pots removed after the removal of Mana Pots, but I dont see Refillable Potion ever being used as a norm for sustain for 90% of the champions until Health Pots are removed OR made less efficient.

AuroramancerNov 21, 20151 votes

First camp + first buff = 250g, recall for Hunter's Potion, and enjoy farming til level 6 while staying full hp.

Specter027Nov 21, 20151 votes

For Jungling, it's an incredible noob trap. You're either strong enough that you don't need the sustain and thus don't need to waste money on it or it's upgrade or you desperately need the health that real potions give you. Either way the refillable pot seems to slow you down.

In lane, it's not so bad, but I'm usually sucking down pots after trades, not during, so I can't say I get much use from item 2033 . But that's more user error than anything. Takes me a bit to get in the habit of using active items in combat.

The biggest issues I have with Corrupting Potion as a laner is Refillable Pot + Cloth Armor/Boots/Dagger or Long Sword feels like a crappy opening, and having the Refillable pot makes half of the Cunning T2 Mastery "Secret Stash" useless, which in general makes that entire tier in Cunning useless (10% longer flash or 15% buff duration, not much help when I'm teleport top)

Wish item 2032 would be seen as useless and ditched, so Refillable Potion could be given more lane options, more charges and a price change.

Weasel KenseiNov 21, 20151 votes

You mean "Newb trap."

As in a "Newbie" or someone who is new to the game.

A "Noob" dose not mean new. Noob is an insult used toward people who think they know what theyre talking about, but have it wrong.

While talking about it, a "Nub" is a Non Useful Body, a nub, is that player that cant group, dives towers at level 1, buys AP items on ADCs etc.

Example of a "Noob" talking: "Why did you buy 2 attack speed items on Kayle, shes an AP champ, BUY AP TARD!" That person THINKS they know what theyre talking about, but clearly dosnt understand the variations and dynamics of the champ, and thus they are a noob.

Noobs are like newbs, in that they lack a concrete understanding of the systems, but unlike newbs, they know just enough to talk about said systems, and unfortunately talk as if they know everything.

Newb traps, are things inexperienced players fall into.

Not trying to be insulting, I just started gaming back when you had to do it over phone lines at 56k speeds is all, and it always pains me to see later generations of gamers use these words wrong because theyve seen it used wrong by so many others.

Blue Collar BearNov 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weasel Kensei,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EiXXaOym,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-11-21T18:46:28.531+0000)

You mean "Newb trap."

As in a "Newbie" or someone who is new to the game.

A "Noob" dose not mean new. Noob is an insult used toward people who think they know what theyre talking about, but have it wrong.

While talking about it, a "Nub" is a Non Useful Body, a nub, is that player that cant group, dives towers at level 1, buys AP items on ADCs etc.

Example of a "Noob" talking: "Why did you buy 2 attack speed items on Kayle, shes an AP champ, BUY AP TARD!" That person THINKS they know what theyre talking about, but clearly dosnt understand the variations and dynamics of the champ, and thus they are a noob.

Noobs are like newbs, in that they lack a concrete understanding of the systems, but unlike newbs, they know just enough to talk about said systems, and unfortunately talk as if they know everything.

Newb traps, are things inexperienced players fall into.

Not trying to be insulting, I just started gaming back when you had to do it over phone lines at 56k speeds is all, and it always pains me to see later generations of gamers use these words wrong because theyve seen it used wrong by so many others.

I started online gaming around the same time. I'll be sure to use the correct terminology from here on, but your commentary detracts from the overall discussion.

I feel you would've private messaged me, if there was a system in place. Riot? You listening?

Illâoi Evê SiônNov 21, 20151 votes

I believe they wanted to buff the Health over 10 seconds to 125 from 100. Do you think this could make it viable? Or do you think the fault lies in its upgrades?

Blue Collar BearNov 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I believe they wanted to buff the Health over 10 seconds to 125 from 100. Do you think this could make it viable? Or do you think the fault lies in its upgrades?

I feel it will bring it closer, but it's still not in line with the three health potion start. On champions that intend on backing early, I think it will make it a viable start. The issue is with the early level clears, and after that, the potions are enough and they'll eventually pay for themselves. My problem is that lanes are usually decided pre-6 and that means I can't waste time backing to get health. I need health now, and I need to gank now. I feel the upgrades are the real trap. Refillable potion is relatively cheap and will pay for itself easily. The other items will not, especially when you need cost effective stats in lane.