My only issue with the Aery nerfs

MorgManBasher·Nov 21, 2017·82 votes·5,753 views

My only issue with the Aery nerfs are there are a lot of AP champs that really have no other option... They don't have the proper CC to use comet and won't ever really get to use it unless they have a making comet useless to them before hand.

I feel like AP's in general are already in a poor state and this was the keystone kinda keeping them afloat and now if aery is overnerfed they are just straight screwed.

Like, using comet on Brand kinda sucks. Sure you can stun them but the stun isn't something you throw out much, brand is more about throwing out his pillar for poke damage and until he gets the comet is never going to land unless the enemy is bad or he stuns them.

Rumble is another champ who kinda needs aery to function.

I just really think AP's need more options for keystones....comet is only good for AP's with hard CC or really strong slows. Personally think Phase Rush just straight sucks, but that's my opinion...feels like a worse stormraiders.

74 Comments

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 21, 201730 votes

{quoted} I just really think AP's need more options for keystones...

ABSOLUTELY agree. Upvoted!

SnowplosionNov 21, 20176 votes

I think we need more keystones in general.

I Do Not RecallNov 21, 20177 votes

Yes, either more keystones, or nerf them all across the board.

It's not just mages, there are many many champions who just can't use any of the keystones in the same way a GP can abuse klepto, or a vayne can abuse press the attack. Some keystones fit perfectly into a champions kit, other times there is really no good keystone to take on a certain champion.

I recently learned that Sivir's w bounce counts as neither an auto attack for press the attack or klepto, nor as an ability proc for comet...

15 keystones for 110+ champions? c'mon riot, it should be obvious from last season that a few select champions are going to use keystones way better than others. So make them either very very general and minor effects, or introduce options for everybody.

NineTailedMysticNov 22, 20172 votes

Why would Sivir W count as as auto attack beyond the one to activate it?

I Do Not RecallNov 22, 20171 votes

It shouldn't, but it also doesn't count as a spell hit. And I'm not saying it should do that either, but in terms being able to proc any of the keystones, sivir's kind of left in the dust, compared to MF, or Ezreal, or Jhinn, Or Vayne. Hence she has a 2% pickrate right now. Because keystones are absurdly strong, and none of them really give her anything.

So my point is they should add more options, or don't make it so keystones are such a huge factor in terms of how strong a champion is. Otherwise half the champions are gonna be left in the dust. It's not JUST sivir who is struggling to make good use of the current keystones.

PurejoyceNov 22, 20171 votes

It shouldn't, so how's that a problem? :D Also sivir has currently higher pick rate than she had in 7.20. In this case the problem probably isn't with the runes, but with overnerfing the champion itself some time ago. You can't just pick random statistic out of context and try to claim it proves your point, when it doesn't.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

I Do Not RecallNov 22, 20171 votes

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

PurejoyceNov 22, 20171 votes

Sure, continue avoiding answering to any posts where you're proven to be wrong or just make no sense because you're using terms you don't understand. Whatever works for you. :)

Critmaster GarenNov 21, 201718 votes

its not just ap champions, mate. the problem is that nearly all keystone effects are easily accessible for champions who auto attack a lot. they just basically do what theyre doing anyways. there is no efford involved to trigger press the attack for an auto attack focused champion.

as spellcaster it feels like youre always playing a mini game, and have to be more consciously aware of performing the right actions to trigger your keystone.

champions who deal damage via spells and damage over time effects dont have a lot options to support their playstile like the precision keystones support marksmen for example.

It Hertz When IPNov 21, 20178 votes

Right now I don't think champions who deal damage over time have ANY options to directly support their playstyle.

Critmaster GarenNov 21, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=It Hertz When IP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xEuryMGM,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-11-21T13:19:56.059+0000)

Right now I don't think champions who deal damage over time have ANY options to directly support their playstyle.

its really just aery and i dont think that was even intentionally.

AirKingNeoNov 22, 20172 votes

DFT caused a lot of issues and I don't think it should come back. Just make them use a normal mage keystone instead of a harder bully keystone.

SweedishGunnerNov 21, 201710 votes

Everyone was abusing Aery though, not just mages.

Sona PingNov 22, 20171 votes

I don't think that was his point. I think it was more along the lines of "Everyone was using Aery, which got it nerfed, but the champions the nerf hurt are the mages because Aery is the only choice for many of them, and the only thing keeping them up."

SweedishGunnerNov 22, 20171 votes

They're still using Aery though, it's not uncommon to have 4-6 people running Aery dependant on the champions. It just does less damage now.

It is true mages do need a better tune though.

Tzuyu Is My BiasNov 22, 20171 votes

Of course they run Aery because they have to still use something.

TwitchInMyPantsNov 21, 20176 votes

Tbh its only losing 5 damage early, 20 damage later, the scaling is the same and so is the cd. I don't think its going to lose impact on champs that need it over Comet. Something Riot should consider though is that there's no real option on DoT mages like Singed or Teemo that need to reapply DoT constantly to get value out of their kit and things like Comet or Phase Rush aren't great on them. Even if Aery needs another base damage nerf they should consider keeping the scaling strong.

ahferroin7Nov 21, 20178 votes

Singed works well with Aftershock and Grasp as well, and in theory should work well with Predator.

Teemo does amazingly with Press the Attack, provided you don't get Hurricane on him, and works pretty well with Predator and Glacial Augment as well.

Just because they do magic damage and you want to increase that doesn't mean they have to go Sorcery.

Pendergast891Nov 21, 20171 votes

Question. Why not get Hurricane if teemo has press the attack?

ahferroin7Nov 24, 20171 votes

I haven't seen anything concrete and haven't tested it myself, but given the wording and how similar it is to Vayne's W (which never procs if you get Hurricane), I would assume that Hurricane's multiple bolts would make it useless in a teamfight (because you'd be hitting multiple targets all the time).

Hexs FortuneNov 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Tbh its only losing 5 damage early, 20 damage later, the scaling is the same and so is the cd. I don't think its going to lose impact on champs that need it over Comet. Something Riot should consider though is that there's no real option on DoT mages like Singed or Teemo that need to reapply DoT constantly to get value out of their kit and things like Comet or Phase Rush aren't great on them. Even if Aery needs another base damage nerf they should consider keeping the scaling strong.

You can also see the Aeri nerfs as it losing a quarter of it's early game base damage and a whopping 1/3 of its late game base damage. The scaling is the same, but it's always been an after thought as one of it's weakest features.

ZephyrDrakeNov 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tbh its only losing 5 damage early, 20 damage later, the scaling is the same and so is the cd. I don't think its going to lose impact on champs that need it over Comet. Something Riot should consider though is that there's no real option on DoT mages like Singed or Teemo that need to reapply DoT constantly to get value out of their kit and things like Comet or Phase Rush aren't great on them. Even if Aery needs another base damage nerf they should consider keeping the scaling strong.

aery barely has any scaling... sorry but the scaling is almost non-existent

FlemmanNov 21, 20176 votes

Let's be honest, we take aery because all the other option for mage are gate behind so many condition that it isn't worth the trade.

If comete had a shorter cd (or maybe an increase size for aoe spell hiting multiple champion) and electrocute the old thunderlord behavior, aery wouldn't be such a default rune.

Aery is the enchanter support rune and they probably add the damage part to encourage them to trade instead of just sitting back and buffing ally. The problem is that, as it scale with ap/ad and in the state the other mage option are now, abuse of the rune by champ without ally spell was to be expected. Imo, they should switch both scaling to mana regen or stuff like that that only support want

Lord Phazanor Nov 21, 20176 votes

They went the lazy way. It'd be better to replace arcane comet with Aery and create a new Keystone. I mean, Arcane Comet has always been called out as bad, yet they keep trying to force us to use it. It has a longish cooldown, low damage and can miss. On the other hand, Aery can't miss, can be both offensive and defensive, and even though it deals slightly less damage, the "cooldown" is lower ( just wait for her to come back). Plus it's way funnier to have Purple Wolf's little sister than to have a minuscule comet.

PokladnicaZlaNov 21, 20174 votes

Aery isn't meant to be on every mage.It's has offensive and defensive purposes that should be used on champion who can deal damage and heal/shield allies.

They need to add a new keystone for mages to use.The sorcery tree could have 4 keystone.

Sexy Jack RabbitNov 21, 20176 votes

It's not meant to be on every mage but it rightfully is used on every mage when it comes between Aery and Comet.

Using comet In the late game as Lux, you'll be adding 100 magic damage to a 1250 damage combo if it hits.

Using Aery you'll be adding a guaranteed 50 magic damage onto a 1250 combo.

The risk just isn't worth it, especially with the dynamic vs stagnant CD's of the spells.

Lord Phazanor Nov 21, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Aery isn't meant to be on every mage.It's has offensive and defensive purposes that should be used on champion who can deal damage and heal/shield allies.

They need to add a new keystone for mages to use.The sorcery tree could have 4 keystone.

Then tune Aery better for supports and remove Arcane Comet and replace it with a Mage only Keystone that actually feels good.
To me the only problem is Arcane Comet. Not really Aery. If Arcane Comet was better, then Mages would use it. Making Aery less good isn't a good choice IMHO.
Yes, I really dislike Arcane Comet.

DryninNov 21, 20176 votes

Here's the irony I'm finding in all this. I checked through my recent games (mostly ARAM, so upfront that this isn't accurate to Summoner's Rift), compared my the damage from my games using the big 4 burst damage keystones of Electrocute, Dark Harvest, Summon Aery, and Comet. Most of these were pretty equivalent of around the 1800-3000 damage ranges. Some of my longer games made Dark Harvest (Which is broken in ARAM) get up to about 4500.

But Summon Comet had a consistent average damage of less than half of all that. The simple fact that it's unreliable to hit is insane to me. That's the biggest issue with it. This is a generally accepted concept in the game that if something is a skill shot, then it needs better scaling/utility/lower cooldown, anything to make it more viable than a point-and-click, but the fact is it's graded on the same curve as the other three that are guaranteed affects (i.e. damage vs. Cooldown). It just feels like Riot isn't addressing its ability to miss in how effective this keystone is, so mages and AD Casters go to Aery for harass and poke, or Electrocute if they have decent burst.

DurzakaNov 21, 20176 votes

See, this is a difficult problem to solve right here.

Aery was just flat out better than Comet in every situation, because of Comets massive CD.

BUT if you buff Comet, instead of nerfing Aery, you now have the champions who can land it consistently (like Annie, or maybe Vel'koz) just absolutely dominating because of it.

StoneSparrowNov 21, 20173 votes

Where is the deathfire equivlent? I feel like it went with so many chamions well

Acheron16Nov 21, 20173 votes

When you stupid shit like Pantheon Aerie or Garen Aerie top and smashing games, you know something's wrong

FascistIguanaNov 21, 20173 votes

whats wrong with an early game poke champion using a poke mastery?

PurejoyceNov 21, 20174 votes

{quoted}

whats wrong with an early game poke champion using a poke mastery?

Garen "early game poke champion", we're done here boys, the FascistIguana totally knows what he's talking about and he wasn't simply abusing broken rune. Ayyyy...

I Do Not RecallNov 21, 20172 votes

Well to be fair, garen is an early game harass champion, instead of poking he seeks to constantly smash his Q on your face, and he buys hp and regen instead of mana so he can do it constantly. It's "poke" in every way except for being ranged.

Much like how other non resource using AD champions like yasuo or riven try to whittle you down early game. Riven has CC, shields and dashes, yasuo has a shield and dashes and a bit of range, garen has insane HP regen, high resists from his W, and a silence.

But yes I agree aery is a lazy keystone, just like a lot of other keystones (electrocute, press the attack, and klepto come to mind), that are essentially just "win more" keystones. They don't add anything to anybodies kit, they just make you stronger. Klepto just gives you more income, electrocute just gives you more burst, press the attack just gives you more all-in damage, Aery just gives you more repeatable damage for better trading.

It's literally just powercreep, and it's sad to see. Some keystones are interesting, and "unlock" certain champions kits, which is what I think the idea was for keystones. But even then sometimes it's a step backward.

Stormraiders Surge made illaoi so much more playable, it made her fun and aggressive and allowed me to outplay people. But now with phase rush it's frustrating to try and proc three separate abilities or attacks on a target when you have such slow animations and attacks. I have to stand still and auto, w, and then Q to proc it, where before I might proc stormraiders on a squishy with just my Q by hitting the spirit and the champion at the same time, allowing me to escape a gank or chase somebody down. But now i just take the generic electrocute on Illaoi now for more damage because phase rush is so clumsy, and I don't want to be more clumsy on an already clumsy champion...

PurejoyceNov 21, 20172 votes

Well to be fair, garen is an early game harass champion, instead of poking he seeks to constantly smash his Q on your face, and he buys hp and regen instead of mana so he can do it constantly. It's "poke" in every way except for being ranged.

No, to be COMPLETELY fair, it's not a poke champion.

Much like how other non resource using AD champions like yasuo or riven try to whittle you down early game. Riven has CC, shields and dashes, yasuo has a shield and dashes and a bit of range, garen has insane HP regen, high resists from his W, and a silence.

By your definition almost every single champion in the game is a 'poke/harass' champion. Which is obviously wrong. And having "instane" (garen? "insane hp regen early game"? No.) hp regen, high resists from W or a silence is nowhere near being relevant in determining a poking/harassing champion, so I don't see what's your point here. You're just listing different champions strengths and attributing them all to making them a poke/harass champs, that's just -again- plain wrong.

But yes I agree aery is a lazy keystone, just like a lot of other keystones (electrocute, press the attack, and klepto come to mind), that are essentially just "win more" keystones. They don't add anything to anybodies kit, they just make you stronger. Klepto just gives you more income, electrocute just gives you more burst, press the attack just gives you more all-in damage, Aery just gives you more repeatable damage for better trading.

How is electrocute a "win more keystone that doesn't add anything to anybodies kit"? Same for Klepto, how's that a "win more keystone"? It just makes your endgame come earlier and probably your late game slightly weaker. Both of these keystones are also not viable on almost every chmapion, while Aery is. So I can't really agree with your comparisons (but "press the attack" is close).

And obviously runes "make you stronger", that's their whole point combined with magnifying your champion's role/playstyle.

It's literally just powercreep, and it's sad to see.

Sorry, but you clearly don't understand what "power creep" is, because this is not it by any means. So it's literally not.

Stormraiders Surge made illaoi so much more playable, it made her fun and aggressive and allowed me to outplay people. But now with phase rush it's frustrating to try and proc three separate abilities or attacks on a target when you have such slow animations and attacks.

Come on, how is using "Q>W>aa" hard to do? And apart from Q, how are these "long animations"? :p (here I might be wrong, because by no means I'm maining illaoi, but from what I've gathered while playing her, proccing phase rush on her shouldn't be hard or annoying at all)

I have to stand still and auto, w, and then Q to proc it

Wrong ability order? Why not use it the way I wrote above?

where before I might proc stormraiders on a squishy with just my Q by hitting the spirit and the champion at the same time, allowing me to escape a gank or chase somebody down. But now i just take the generic electrocute on Illaoi now for more damage because phase rush is so clumsy, and I don't want to be more clumsy on an already clumsy champion...

...doesn't it take pretty much the same thing to proc electrocute and PR? In what way is one easier to proc than the other on illaoi? <.<

FascistIguanaNov 21, 20172 votes

i was mainly talking about panth. I like how aery opened up new play paths for garen though, that was the whole point of runes

PurejoyceNov 21, 20173 votes

How does aery "open up a new play path for garen"? In what way it changes garen's playstyle and how is it new? You can't just throw around random statements that "sound good" but make no sense.

Anyways, the nerf was justified.

I Do Not RecallNov 21, 20171 votes

It doesn't. You still play garen exactly the same way with aery as without. It's just a "win more" keystone, just like most of them.

Predator opens up new play styles for champions like garen, but unfortunately they are just not worth taking unless you have no chance of winning lane anyway, because grasp and aery are just so much better in making you "win more", and the impact of crushing your lane vs just winning your lane is so much more important.

PurejoyceNov 22, 20171 votes

It's just a "win more" keystone, just like most of them.

No, they are not. Even aery isn't a "win more" keystone.

Are you, by any chance, some kind of hearthstone player? Because I have a feeling you keep using "win more" and -more blatantly- "power creep" while not knowing what they really mean. If not hearthstone, then what is it? Because you must be borrowing these terms from somewhere :D

My Waifu VanillaNov 22, 20171 votes

Aery was definitely "win more" when it added A LOT of damage to your poke (which usually happens in a "winning" situation). Teemo tended to "win lane" before preseason due to the nature of his kit in which not many top laners could punish him. Now hardly any top laner can punish him early because his poke procs 2 Aery every time he goes to harass you meaning whenever you were usually at 3/4 health or so last season you are now rocking about half health.

PurejoyceNov 22, 20171 votes

Aery was broken on most champions it was picked on and overally it still wasn't a "win more" rune, it's a direct, constant addition to damage output, which helps you regardless of winning or losing the lane or game. Also the fact that you use poking champ and poke a lot doesn't mean you won the lane by any means.

Just like dragonsdwell, you don't really understand what "win more" term means. Getting a direct buff at every stage of the game or being overally "broken" or "must have" is not a "win more" rune. It's like saying "ad runes in old rune system were just win more", which also is just false.

I Do Not RecallNov 22, 20171 votes

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/1/Ad-Hominem-Abusive

PurejoyceNov 22, 20171 votes

Since when asking "are you a hearthstone player" is in any way "abusive"?

But sure, continue avoiding answering to any posts where you're proven to be wrong or just make no sense (because you're using terms you don't understand) and then play a victim. Whatever works for you. :)

Cereal420Nov 21, 20173 votes

The aery nerfs were completely necessary, and honestly they still aren't enough. Aery is by far the most broken keystone right now because ranged champs can take it and proc it every few seconds on you. Have you ever laned against a teemo or pantheon with Aery? It's hell. You basically just gave them a 25% dmg buff in the early game just by taking aery.

MorgManBasherNov 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

The aery nerfs were completely necessary, and honestly they still aren't enough. Aery is by far the most broken keystone right now because ranged champs can take it and proc it every few seconds on you. Have you ever laned against a teemo or pantheon with Aery? It's hell. You basically just gave them a 25% dmg buff in the early game just by taking aery.

Never said they weren't nesscary, just saying a lot AP mages have no real options other than aery. Phase rush sucks and comet can be unreiable for a lot of AP mages.

Cereal420Nov 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Never said they weren't nesscary, just saying a lot AP mages have no real options other than aery. Phase rush sucks and comet can be unreiable for a lot of AP mages.

theres electrocute too

ModKnightsKemplarNov 21, 20172 votes

There's one thing about comet that I think people really neglect.

Being able to control someone's movement is pretty valuable, and comet provides that to kits that wouldn't otherwise have a tool like that. Like many abilities in the game, that keystone isn't valuable solely for the damage; once in teamfights, I will defend its damage up and down, especially since it can deal AoE if people are clumped, but that's not the only argument for it.

Weasel KenseiNov 21, 20172 votes

These are some of my thoughts also. I think META sheep is in hard effect... popular to bash comet for x reasons, so people go tribal and start yelling at the current target of whatever set off the initial group. Does comet have issues? Yes, is it total trash? No, it does force people to dodge it if they dont want the extra damage.

In teamfights, it can often hit 2 or more people, and they often can be bothered to casually dodge it in that situation.

My personal thought on comet (to make it more desirable) would be to have its AoE increase with AP/AD a small bit so as the game moves on and abilities give bigger movement boost, and people have boots, and move speed items like Ludens or RFC the comet scales in difficulty to doge and relevance toward the end of laning, and is the more obvious choice for mages or even some assassins.

OP Garen SupportNov 21, 20172 votes

Yes there is no proper keystone for most mages. Not to mention a choice to choose from. Aery is clearly supposed to be a support keystone.

Deathfire touch deleted, thunderlord deleted.(no electrocute is hard to proc and some mages dont even have 3 spells to proc it)

Once again only AD champions got the best keystones. There are 1 or 2 exceptions like Ezreal and Gankplank abusing the support keystone Kleptomancy.

Mages need a real Rune option for damage, dot, mana instead we got movement speed only if we hit every skillshot, a dodgeable uncontrollable area damage and a support poke rune.

What Is SmiteNov 22, 20171 votes

Why don't they just increase the missile speed of comet? I mean rather than making another Major Rune that would be the most likely path for Riot to take as it would take less time and reduce the likeliness of a bug emerging from the coding that would make-up the new Major Rune